Cassiopeia is still trash

Focusss··41 votes·2,780 views

Cass was strong at all points in the game BECAUSE she was so hard to play. Now i feel she is even harder to play with her shit early game and she is hardly even rewarding to play because of league of late game gap closing assassins. Assuming you make it to late game without being destroyed in lane, Cass supposed REALLY STRONG late game is only a little stronger then old Cassiopeia's late game.

What i want for cass is: her ult to not have a delay before using it, and a longer range. and better damage from her twin fangs because riot is trying to push people to use her twin fangs as her main damage source, and if that can not be done at least give more range on her twin fangs.

29 Comments

Caustic Crusader22 votes

I vote we start to call her "Stashiopeia", because there's nothing about her post-rework state that was made to please anyone but Stashu.

Grand Eleven2 votes

I vote we start to call her "Stashiopeia", because there's nothing about her post-rework state that was made to please anyone but Stashu.

This. So much this.

Young Kush Clop1 votes

I vote we start to call her "Stashiopeia", because there's nothing about her post-rework state that was made to please anyone but Stashu.

yeah.

ferkin10 votes

I think the biggest QoL she needs aside from number tweaks is a fix to her passive. Currently, poisoning more than 1 champion will only increase the stack count as if she only poisoned one person.

Ex: Poison 4 people, stack count only goes up by 1 per second of poison as if you only poisoned one champion.

Serpents Embrace8 votes

I just want a revert until they can get someone competent to do a rework, if it's deemed she even fucking needs one.

Caustic Crusader4 votes

Cassiopeia is seriously in a state where she has TOO much counterplay. It's to the point where you'll almost have to be trying in order to not exploit it. Old Cass still had that, but her Q was quicker so it didn't feel as punishing, and it also rewarded you far better for actually hitting someone with it. Not to mention, her early game has no power whatsoever any more. She has no draw at all any more. The change on her E's reset, a 0.05 ratio boost on E and a slightly lower cooldown on your buggy as fuck ult are the only things we've been given to compensate for the loss of basically everything in the kit. Weaker Q, weaker W, weaker E until you finish your build because of the base decrease vastly outweighing anything the ratio boost could make up for, weaker R, again because of bases. The change to her E's reset isn't nearly enough to compensate for how much her kit has lost.

When you take a champ in a lane that NEEDS to do well early to influence anything, take away her strong early game, and hinge her entire experience on being able to survive the early game, you've made errors.

Focusss3 votes

i was trying to say the reason she was so strong at all points in the game is because she is one of the hardest APC's to play in the game (that was her design)

Martyrofsand3 votes

Just gonna quote myself from the other topic of the exact same name as this one....

I want to address this whole "Cassio can't fight anyone early game" thing that people keep throwing out there.

Pre-rework Cass used to do 75+.8 AP scaling with her Q at rank 1. Pre-rework Cass used to do 50+.55 AP scaling on her E at rank 1.

Now she does 75+.45 AP ratio with her Q at rank 1 Now she does 55+.4 AP scaling with her E at rank 1.

Pre-rework she could get 3 Es off her Q Now she can get 6 Es off her Q.

Starting with a Doran's Ring and standard runes/masteries 39 AP by level 2 would be reasonable.

Pre-rework would then to 76+.8 = 106.2 for her Q Pre-rework would then do 50+.55 = 71.45 per E, getting 3 of them for a total of 214.35

Pre-rework Cassio level 2 will do 320.55 damage.

Cassio now will do 75+.45 = 92.55 for her Q Cassio now will do 55+.4 = 70.6 damage per E and you can now land 6 which is 423.6

Cassio now can do 516.15

That is optimal if you land all 6 E casts 445.55 if you land 5 Es, 374.95 damage if you land 4. If all you do is play Cass like you used to, IE Q-->E 3 times and back off you will do less damage, all of 16.2 less damage considering now 3 Es from cass is 304.35 damage. This idea that Cassio does no early game damage is flat out wrong if you are correctly using her E.

About the only changes she could really use right now is a slight mana cost reduction on her Q, considering the remake made her E cost less than previously at all ranks but rank 5 in which they are the same, and a bit of flexibility on her passive to enable her to have some type of come back mechanic if she gets shut out, perhaps letting her gain stacks from up to 2 poisoned champions at most. Beyond that she isn't as gutted as everyone wants to make her out to be.

PsylentFox3 votes

Just gonna quote myself from the other topic of the exact same name as this one....

I want to address this whole "Cassio can't fight anyone early game" thing that people keep throwing out there.

Pre-rework Cass used to do 75+.8 AP scaling with her Q at rank 1. Pre-rework Cass used to do 50+.55 AP scaling on her E at rank 1.

Now she does 75+.45 AP ratio with her Q at rank 1 Now she does 55+.4 AP scaling with her E at rank 1.

Pre-rework she could get 3 Es off her Q Now she can get 6 Es off her Q.

Starting with a Doran's Ring and standard runes/masteries 39 AP by level 2 would be reasonable.

Pre-rework would then to 76+.8 = 106.2 for her Q Pre-rework would then do 50+.55 = 71.45 per E, getting 3 of them for a total of 214.35

Pre-rework Cassio level 2 will do 320.55 damage.

Cassio now will do 75+.45 = 92.55 for her Q Cassio now will do 55+.4 = 70.6 damage per E and you can now land 6 which is 423.6

Cassio now can do 516.15

That is optimal if you land all 6 E casts 445.55 if you land 5 Es, 374.95 damage if you land 4. If all you do is play Cass like you used to, IE Q-->E 3 times and back off you will do less damage, all of 16.2 less damage considering now 3 Es from cass is 304.35 damage. This idea that Cassio does no early game damage is flat out wrong if you are correctly using her E.

About the only changes she could really use right now is a slight mana cost reduction on her Q, considering the remake made her E cost less than previously at all ranks but rank 5 in which they are the same, and a bit of flexibility on her passive to enable her to have some type of come back mechanic if she gets shut out, perhaps letting her gain stacks from up to 2 poisoned champions at most. Beyond that she isn't as gutted as everyone wants to make her out to be.

The issue with with this is you're putting plain numbers up there. Yes, numerically Cassi post rework does have a higher damage potential, but the thing is that its damage potential, meaning it won't always happen. Most times you're going to get 3 or maybe 4 Twin Fangs off in any spell rotation. Why? Because people aren't going to sit there and let you hit them. They're going to either run away or they're going to burst you harder. Heaven forbid you use Twin Fang during a lapse in poisons, because that spell is going on cooldown, and there goes all of your damage output. Old Cassi was far better because her damage was evenly spread out across all of her spells, meaning that should you miss a spell it wasn't going to completely gimp your damage.

Martyrofsand1 votes

The issue with with this is you're putting plain numbers up there. Yes, numerically Cassi post rework does have a higher damage potential, but the thing is that its damage potential, meaning it won't always happen. Most times you're going to get 3 or maybe 4 Twin Fangs off in any spell rotation. Why? Because people aren't going to sit there and let you hit them. They're going to either run away or they're going to burst you harder. Heaven forbid you use Twin Fang during a lapse in poisons, because that spell is going on cooldown, and there goes all of your damage output. Old Cassi was far better because her damage was evenly spread out across all of her spells, meaning that should you miss a spell it wasn't going to completely gimp your damage.

Um any champ that isn't and adc is going to gimp their damage if they miss a spell, this is really nothing unique to Cassio. If you want to argue the cost of missing your poisons is currently to high however then I might agree with you.

The point I was mainly making with that is everyone is saying "cassio rework is gutted does no damage lose all duels blah blah blah" when that is factually wrong. Cassio actually does comparable damage to her old self, being all of 16 damage short with 3 Es like before and significantly out damaging her old self at every E past that point. Saying her damage is so low that she can't fight anyone in the early game is just flat out wrong considering no other champ in this game at level 2 is capable of putting out over 500 damage on their own in 3 seconds like Cassio can.

Neo Cyrus6 votes

You're crazy if you think it's an automatic 6 Es now, you won't get 6 and at most you'll land 1 more than before if any more. If you can land 6 now you would have landed 5 before. More realistically you'll land 3 now at low levels or 4 if they're going straight into you, in that case it would have been 3-4 before as well. They're not going to stand still and let you get off every E you can while your poison is ticking.

Your math is based on an imaginary scenario that doesn't exist.

Canastus4 votes

You'll be lucky enough to even have the mana to get half of them off. Her manacosts are downright absurd and entirely unreasonable after losing her old passive.

Martyrofsand2 votes

You'll be lucky enough to even have the mana to get half of them off. Her manacosts are downright absurd and entirely unreasonable after losing her old passive.

Um at rank 1 Cassio's Q had it's mana increased from 35 to 40 mana per cast.

Mean while at rank 1 Cassio's E had it's mana cost reduced to 30 from 50, in fact at all ranks but rank 5 twin fang now costs less than it cost old cassiopeia 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90 now compared to 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90. pre-rework.

So to put that into context, 1Q+3Es previously would have cost you 185 mana

Now 1Q +6Es costs 220.

She starts with 270 mana +60 for each level so at level 2 she will have 390 mana without any runes/masteries. That will leave you with 170, still more than enough to poison the minion wave after and E to last hit for mana regen which at level 2 will be the 30 mana cost of your twin fang +11.7 from 3% boost +4 per kill from the doran ring.

While if you get all 6 Es off it will cost slightly more, all of 35 more, it doesn't suddenly cripple you like everyone is trying to say it does. Hell you could still Q and cast 4 more Es on the enemy laner before going oom which is more than enough to kill pretty much anyone in the game at that level.

You're crazy if you think it's an automatic 6 Es now, you won't get 6 and at most you'll land 1 more than before if any more. If you can land 6 now you would have landed 5 before. More realistically you'll land 3 now at low levels or 4 if they're going straight into you, in that case it would have been 3-4 before as well. They're not going to stand still and let you get off every E you can while your poison is ticking.

Your math is based on an imaginary scenario that doesn't exist.

Um in the past it was impossible to land more than 3 Es because of how the resets worked. It didn't reset until the E actually hit the target meaning you had to wait for the travel time and then you had to wait for the CD after it reset to .5 seconds. This tended to mean the CD was 1 second between the travel time and the reset and only really changed if you where point blank range. Now the CD resets to .5 instantly upon cast if the enemy target is poisened. This means the ticker begins before the E has even dealt it's damage and without travel time that leaves the spell with a flat .5 CD which makes it more than possible to get 6 Es in if you position correctly and are smart casting. I generally sit between 100-150 ping and I am consistently getting 5 Es in with each Q. It isn't some imaginary scenario it's something people like Cobra and I, and I'm sure others who are not on these boards, are doing consistently because of how we position and play around her E spam play style. We realize how much damage it really does vs how much other champs can do and take advantage of the fact that we are stronger than they are and punish those who don't respect it.

Really when you put it in context it makes sense why so many Diamonds show so much respect to Cobra in his videos. Chances are they realized Cassio can out DPS them and that Cobra will punish them if they try to fight, vs players in Bronze/Silver/Gold who continue to think Cassio does zero damage and is trash and disrespect her while playing against Cassio's who feel the same way and allow themselves to be disrespected. As long as you continue to insist that she is weak you will never realize just how strong she really is. I've provided the numbers and the data to show that she does in fact win against pretty much anyone when played correctly, if you don't want to accept that and abuse players that disrespect you when playing her that is on you, not the champion.

RiotRiot King Cobra2 votes

Um in the past it was impossible to land more than 3 Es because of how the resets worked. It didn't reset until the E actually hit the target meaning you had to wait for the travel time and then you had to wait for the CD after it reset to .5 seconds. This tended to mean the CD was 1 second between the travel time and the reset and only really changed if you where point blank range. Now the CD resets to .5 instantly upon cast if the enemy target is poisened. This means the ticker begins before the E has even dealt it's damage and without travel time that leaves the spell with a flat .5 CD which makes it more than possible to get 6 Es in if you position correctly and are smart casting. I generally sit between 100-150 ping and I am consistently getting 5 Es in with each Q. It isn't some imaginary scenario it's something people like Cobra and I, and I'm sure others who are not on these boards, are doing consistently because of how we position and play around her E spam play style. We realize how much damage it really does vs how much other champs can do and take advantage of the fact that we are stronger than they are and punish those who don't respect it.

Really when you put it in context it makes sense why so many Diamonds show so much respect to Cobra in his videos. Chances are they realized Cassio can out DPS them and that Cobra will punish them if they try to fight, vs players in Bronze/Silver/Gold who continue to think Cassio does zero damage and is trash and disrespect her while playing against Cassio's who feel the same way and allow themselves to be disrespected. As long as you continue to insist that she is weak you will never realize just how strong she really is. I've provided the numbers and the data to show that she does in fact win against pretty much anyone when played correctly, if you don't want to accept that and abuse players that disrespect you when playing her that is on you, not the champion.

This is pretty spot on. And it isn't just true for me. There are/were plenty of replays of Voyboy destroying people with new Cassio midlane (there is a specific game that comes to mind where he is against a Fizz and ends the game like 13/2). Scarra was in the game playing support if it helps you find it (Scarra and Voy were both streaming so it may be in their VODs somewhere).

And for those saying that you won't get the 5-6 Fangs in. You get them in the same amount of time that you previously got 2-3 in (which it sounds like nobody had trouble doing). And besides, if the opponent starts to back off, that's the whole point of the movement speed on Q...you can catch up to them and weave around whatever CC they throw at you.

She really truly isn't trash. Maybe she needs some fine tuning in the mana costs or the passive stacks but that's basically it balance wise. I can understand further changes to help with her "identity" (although I don't think it's really a problem since to me she didn't really change at all identity wise). Balance and playability wise, she's almost entirely OK.

Orbv1 votes

I've grown to not care about the stack idea if that is the only thing keeping her new e refresh. Also the delay on her ult is Necessary for surprise flash ulting which cuts the animation. But that stack count is absurdly high. Maybe make the heal stronger by 5 for every 20 after the first 100. Then take the cdr off the passive and make her cooldowns their original value. The shredding of her early game for the late is the most unfun feeling about new cass. I think that's why I dislike her more. It's part of the reason veigar had little play

RiotRiot King Cobra1 votes

I've grown to not care about the stack idea if that is the only thing keeping her new e refresh. Also the delay on her ult is Necessary for surprise flash ulting which cuts the animation. But that stack count is absurdly high. Maybe make the heal stronger by 5 for every 20 after the first 100. Then take the cdr off the passive and make her cooldowns their original value. The shredding of her early game for the late is the most unfun feeling about new cass. I think that's why I dislike her more. It's part of the reason veigar had little play

I agree with you that the stack count is really high. For people who don't religiously play Cassiopeia it's WAY too high IMO. I don't think it's fair that most people have to wait until 40 minutes to get to that late game power spike.

I also am not a fan of the increased CD on Q. The 4 seconds feels awkward after playing her so much with 3 seconds. Also, since the Q delay increase went through as well, the skill feels a bit weird to actually use as well. I think something can be done here to make her early game at least FEEL not as bad.

Her early game isn't really that bad though. If you were somebody who maxed Q then yeah, it's definitely weaker since you can't poke indefinitely due to Deadly Cadence. As somebody who worked around Twin Fang though, I find her early game pretty OK after you get a Tear (which I usually built anyways since I highly value Seraph's shield).

Orbv2 votes

You are only talking about ideal circumstances. Players are not phenomenal on Cass, you can't expect her to always hit as many fangs as possible. Her q does les damage, that alone hurts. She cannot attempt to poke a long range champ, they will never get in range of her. But you can't poke now because you're always levelling up E. Let's say you get the Q off, you need the speed boost just to reach your target to get a fang off. Every single one of cass's abilities cause her to stop. You will never get off 6 fangs if the person is backing up at all, you might not even get 3 off post rework cass because she keeps stopping. It is a big deal to get two fangs of without repercussions.

A big part of Cass was to whittle your opponents down, then attack. You CANNOT fight another most mids at level 2. Nobody will allow you to just spam on top of them when most already out range her. Can't take on yasuo, ahri, syndra, zilean (sad), ziggs, xerath or Ori whose short cooldowns and shield/slow out do Cass.

Also her heal is horrible until around 700 AP. Any mage will kill you with the same build at that point.

They took away her strength in multiple places to buff one play style that requires you to be GREATER than your opponent buy a vast margin. It's not rewarding to get good with Cass. She's just so underwhelming.

Martyrofsand1 votes

You really don't have to be phenomenal at Cass to pull off +3 Es per Q cast. Its not about mashing the key as fast as possible its about positioning and orb walking in between Es. Everytime you cast an E you should immediately click to move toward your opponent and press E again as soon as its up. It isn't hard to do, its only slightly more intensive than the orb walking most ADC and melee champs do. Frankly its what you should be doing on every champ whether you are AAing or casting spells. If you are doing it there is really no reason for you to not land +3 Es on your target per Q.

As for the champs you mentioned yeah Syndra/Ziggs are good against cass, so are Xerith and Azir. The others you mentioned not so much. Yasuo can be strong if he avoids your poison with his E but if you tag him once he will either W and back off or die from the E spam. Zilien is extremely easy especially if he tries to double bomb you at level 2, you just Q him while he goes through his cast animation and proceed to melt him out of the lane. Orianna can safe farm against Cass some what but she can't go aggressive unless cass makes a big mistake because Cass does so much more single target damage than her at pretty much all stages of the game its kinda silly.

Cassio doesn't require some kind of godlike degree of skill that so many of you keep saying. Everything she does now in terms of casting and landing her skills is pretty much the same as it was in the past, the only difference is her damage is now on a single target instead of spread out.

Cute Vegan Boy2 votes

I respect the Twin Fang aspect of this, but not the ult, as it would be kind of broken.

Focusss2 votes

plz upvote so more people can see this since you cant bump threads anymore

Renegen2 votes

she's not trash at all.

straight4free2 votes

Old Cassio in lane : Land Qs until they were low, go in for kill

New Cassio in lane : Land Qs until they are low, repeat ad infinitum because it doesn't do enough damage to get them low

UncensoredAngel1 votes

"she was strong because she was hard?" she was good? lol what are you smoking

ceaselessphantom1 votes

I agree on the ult with no delay. It is pretty dumb to have the counter play on a skill to be to not pay attention. Maybe they could lower the slow or something if the current ult instant is to much.

Havenscythe1 votes

Riot is trying to convert her into more of a mage duelist who needs to land poison to keep her damage consistent than she previously was. Just like how they reworked Nidalee to a version where she relies on landing her Q. Ive carried with her in Plat solo quene here http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1607606321/48451716

Champion Skin2 votes

Fiora seemed to carry that game pretty hard too (Fiora dealt about 50% more damage to champions then Cassiopeia did in total) And even if you carried/won that game doesn't mean you couldn't have done so with easier or better with any other champion

Like poppy wins and carries games... is she very strong or viable? Depends but mostly no... unless you are very good with poppy and know how to get through the early game and still getting enough gold to become strong

They are trying to make Cass into an ADC that does magic damage and needs to hit a skill shot to "auto attack" and she also needs stacks and gold while most ADC's will be fine with just gold that is the way it seems to me that trying to make Cassiopeia

The advantage is items like Zhonyas the disadvantage is relying on two things to get strong items and stacks and the fact that you are less reliable because possibly less range and no escape and have to hit a skill shot to deal damage

Audiomancy1 votes

If you hit 6 Twin Fangs in one Q, someone will inevitably say 'lol skripts??'

Hi lm Kalista1 votes

Umm, assassin's aren't really played anymore, Sadly item 3070 Talon item 3070 R.I.P in pepperoni's

Creamy Seaman1 votes

She is basically a harder to play teemo and even more cancerous.

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