Vladimir, The crimson Reaper and his upcoming rework

Malicious Metal··76 votes·10,710 views

It's official, Vladimir as well as other five immobile mages are going to be reworked mid-year in a class update similar to the dreaded Juggernauts and Marksmen. While champions like Brand are going to get reworked due to not providing an unique enough experience Vladimir was chosen due to the same reason as Mordekaiser was; He's unhealthy and con't be allowed to be strong without pissing off almost every other top laner.

A good friend of mine, TheUntitledKing, who considers Vlad to be his main and myself got together and discussed the Crimson reaper in detail. While his puns are even worse than Vlad's he did manage to give me some insight into what makes Vladimir who he is and me always having considered Old Mordekaiser and Vlad to be really similar made me decide to try to express my opinion on Vlad.

So, without further ado let's get to the juicy bits.

Who is Vladimir Vladimir is a Noxian Haemomancer, a Blood Mage. On the outside he seems like the usual Aristocrat, he's lean, he dresses in extravagant clothing, he's got the pale visage so many nobles used to consider a sign of nobility. Yet beneath that facade lurks a real Monster. While not a Vampire by name Vladimir does share many attributes so commonly found in Vampire literature, tales of the handsome Aristocrats seducing humans only to feast on their blood.

Vladimir is similar to the bunch due to his fascination with the very essence of life, Blood. His lore tells of him murdering two of his play mates when he was a mere fifteen years old only to get high off the blooming crimson of their blood. He escapes Noxus only to find a desolate temple and his future Master Dimitri, a blood Mage of unfathomable power who trains the youth until in his final test Vladimir absorbs all of Dimitri's blood, gaining all the powers of every blood mage before him.

In Sion's relaunch it has been revealed that Vlad's indeed a member of the Black Rose, the shadowy organization pulling the strings in the shadows. This makes Vladimir close allies with Swain and Leblanc as well as Elise apparently, all mages of monstrous magical talents, two of them even being shape shifters who turn into daemonic animals. In Sion's rebirth Vlad was the one performing the Blood ritual to reanimate the former Noxian hero, with Jarvan's blood and four unlucky souls being drained of all their blood to give life to Sion.

These depicts Vlad capable of utilizing blood as more than a weapon but also as a means to give life to what was once dead and to sustain that life.

On a gameplay side Vladimir's a tanky mage. One who due to his low range and low cooldowns thrives in close quarters but not degrading himself to get into Melee range. He keeps his distance and yet he0s close enough to draw out your blood.

His damage output's sustained, in more ways than one. He doesn't burst, he drains you like a real Vampire as well as sustaining himself with your lifeblood. His ultimate and spammable Tides of Blood make him an AoE threat who manages to reduce clumped up enemies to puddles of blood. As a Late game monster he gets really tanky, yet his power curve doesn't match a real late game mage, but i'll get into more detail later on.

Vlad stays healthy but his playstyle isn't Vladimir SHOULD be a sustain mage, he should get tanky, he should dish out a lot of damage over time yet while this niche isn't problematic the way he achieves this is. He has the problem of having a spammable, resourceless POINT AND CLICK heal that serves as poke as. You can't poke Vladimir in lane but have to go ballistic on his pale ass in order to beat him and if you do he'll go all "NOPE" into his pool and sustain back up. His sustain doesn't require a resource, it doesn't require him to take risks and once he gets a WoTA he's even resourceless while healing even more. For a late game champion he doesn't scale as well as others, spiking at level 9 when he maxes out his Q and his ultimate damage amp being a flat 12% doesn't make it scale all that well either.

How to fix some of his issues/Suggestions Vladimir's sustain lacks his having to expend a resource or actually having to risk anything. That in mind I've come up with something inspired by his lore where he revels in the blooming rose petal-like blood of his victims. Enter "Blood Clouds" or how I'd call them; Roses of the Dusk, a nudge to his affiliation with the Black rose and him seeing Blood as something beautiful.

W; Active: Sanguine Pool Passive; Roses of the Dusk Whenever Vladimir kills a unit it leaves behind a mist of blood Vladimir can stand in to recover a flat amount of health over a few seconds. This would make vlad get into range of dying minions in order to bask in their blooming blood, recovering his health by other means than simply point and click his enemies. Yet this would only be his lane sustain, which would probably have to be balanced with reducing his massive HP regen to Morde-levels in order to make his sustain carry risks and giving his enemies the chance to shoo him away from the blood to deny him the healing.

Another suggestion is for him to use a secondary resource bar like Aatrox's, his blood ball, he has to fill to increase his healing so that he doesn't just spam his resourceless Q all day to heal himself. This bar would fill every time he expends health and increases his Q heal, whose heal value would have to become way lower. A full bar would heal him as much, if not more, than it current does but all his spells except his ultimate would require health to cast, which would make him healthier due to his Q now actually having a cost but having a higher heal to compensate since Riot's issue with Vlad's him spamming his resourceless Q 24/7..

Haemoplague doesn't feel as impactful as it should and has the potential to become a true spreading disease, similar to the plagues Vampires were rumored to bring in their wake. His ultimate could be him infecting one target enemy champion and boost his team's damage tp that particular champion, maybe even scaling with missing HP. But here's the fun part; When the infected champion DIES before the effect ends his corpse explodes in a vicious blood cloud, infecting the closest enemy champion, starting the cycle anew!

These are just my thoughts on the Crimson Reaper Vladimir, and everyone's entitled to their own opinion. This is what these kinds of threads are for anyways, to discuss and compare the different takes on a champion's identity and gameplay. With the Mage update drawing closer with each passing day we should take some time and really pin down the six to-be-reworked champions so that Riot's got a clear picture what they have to change and what has to stay so that we can avoid another Mordekaiser to be born.

~M.M

http://pre15.deviantart.net/3f62/th/pre/i/2013/041/f/d/a_little_bit_of_improv_by_vegacolors-d5uigf8.jpg

110 Comments

Azteryz49 votes

Who is Vladimir Vladimir is a Noxian Haemomancer, a Blood Mage.

this needed to be said so badly for the people who still think hes a vampire

Xaenos2 votes

i pretty much firgured that out after i played a few games as him and looked at his lore, hes definitely not a vampire. Vampires suck blood, not become/control it

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

Dracula doesn't suck blood. He scrape, and lick.

Xaenos1 votes

LOL Billy and Mandy. Well played.

KING OF MASKS22 votes

Solid post, good discussion and ideas...

...but wouldn't it be so COOL if we made Vlad into a jungling ADC?!!?

Auryiel5 votes

Hopefully that'll go very nicely with the new and improved AD Tank Malzahar

HighH16 votes

Along with Bruiser Support Fiddlesticks

ZT Xperimentor7 votes

And artillery mage renekton lol

NineTailedMystic5 votes

The good 'ol Wizard Lizard

Sahn Uzal18 votes

klicks thread because I love Vlad: Let's see

Reads who wrote the thread: o Hey, It's the Morde guy!

Starts reading the topic: Vladimir is a Noxian Haemomancer, a Blood Mage. (...) While not a Vampire by name Vladimir does share many attributes so commonly found in Vampire literature, tales of the handsome Aristocrats seducing humans only to feast on their blood.

Falls to his knees and yells out loud: THANK YOU

summoner 31

Over Innsmouth12 votes

I helped too :D

Sahn Uzal5 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs] summoner 31

Malicious Metal4 votes

I aim to please.

Malicious Metal8 votes

[{quoted}](name=SwHc Fenris,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Us3EPJJ,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-02-01T18:12:24.889+0000)

Reads who wrote the thread: o Hey, It's the Morde guy!

Genuinely made me chuckle.

Tohob16 votes

i really like the ultimate idea, aside from the fact that it feels like it's stepping all over Malzahar's face.

as for the Q, i completely agree that it needs to have a resource of some kind, and the suggestion you made for a resource is a really good one. a separate "blood"-like resource that amplifies his healing the higher it is sounds pretty cool, but i'm really not a fan of the stand-in-aoe-to-heal concept. the problem is that his Q is just too cool and iconic of an ability. he's pulling the blood out of his foes and transfusing it into himself, and that is cool as hell, but there's no real way to give it counterplay. it doesn't make sense as a skillshot, and Vladimir using his blood as a resource makes far too much sense for him to ever have a mana pool, but "blood" translates directly to "health" when talking about resources. again, adding a "blood" resource sounds great.

Honestly i think the best possible spaces to work on Vladimir are his E and his ultimate. his E has that bit of inherent risk-reward in that you're spending your own health to amplify both his damage and his healing, but in practice he buys a item 3152 and the health cost of using his E disappears, leaving you with a free damage + healing amp. i would be incredibly sad to see his Q or W, or even his passive changed into a new, different ability entirely, and i think his E especially is a good place to implement the heavier ability changes.

Spizzle90002 votes

Perhaps change his E to a skillshot and make it do more damage based on how much blood Vlad has? His ultimate could become like a multi-target Fiddlestick's drain or something of the sort and his Q and R would increase his blood resource and his E and W would expend it for increased damage or something.

Saianna8 votes

Vlad needs to keep his KA-ME-HA run animation

Please Q_Q

Cowgirl Ed7 votes

You people talk like Vladimir is hard to beat in lane

Malicious Metal36 votes

He's not but he's really damn obnoxious if you play the wrong champ.^^

Besides, Riot wants to rework him because, like old Mordekaiser, he doesn't interact much with his lane opponent and his play pattern's not really healthy.

flying banelings5 votes

Just because vlad is simple doesn't mean we should gut him. He became my new main after morde got changed. I like the Aatrox q idea and i think it would give the opponent more counter play. Other than that he should keep the kit the same and increase the effect and cost of e.

Anidan9 votes

Nothing was said about simplicity. Simple champions are fine, but non-interactive playstyles are not. Even Annie interacts with her lane opponent more meaningfully than Vladimir (in that she actually has meaningful interaction with the enemy champion). She can be annoying to deal with, but she's also not inherently detrimental to the health of the game like Vladimir is.

His kit, structured the way it currently is, is not healthy. This is coming from someone who also likes Vladimir. He's not healthy. He's frustrating to play against, has non-interactive laning, and is largely boring to play even if he does have some form of nuanced gameplay (y'know, like every other champion in the game). His core gameplay pattern absolutely has to be changed for him to be healthy.

GawnMower1 votes

Ive always found vlad to be similar to lane against like the old ryze was when he was top lane in 50% of every game. although beatable, its much harder than beating pretty much any other champion. You have to bait that your going ham, he then has to fall for the biat, then you need to go ham on his ass, really ham, really really ham. and even then its hard to finish him off, especially once he picks up WoA or Spirits vissage. its not his damage that annoys most people. its just the fact that he will just whittle you down, whilst sustaining all the damage you dish out. then once he gets rylias your life is ruined because he becomes very obnoxious to fight.

He is by all means beatable, its just not easy, and its much harder than another champion. if your not at all in champ you suffer

flying banelings2 votes

item 3123 item 3165

Ehrem6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Us3EPJJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-02-01T15:00:07.395+0000) But here's the fun part; When the infected champion DIES before the effect ends his corpse explodes in a vicious blood cloud, infecting the closest enemy champion, starting the cycle anew!

This is a fantastic idea! It would potentially cause enemies to scramble around in fear trying to avoid the plague. Seems like it would fit well with Vlad

It Hertz When IP6 votes

Downvote time, but I don't like the Roses idea. While thematically it perfectly fits, gameplay wise you are forcing a ranged mage to enter the front line for his only sustain without any real CC compensation, using a mechanic that's basically a reskinned Thresh passive. The second idea sounds... interesting. A Blood Well makes great thematic sense and could be a great resource to give him. What if Q stays the same point n click, but instead of healing him it fills his Blood Well? After X amount of time out of combat, the Blood Well drains to heal him. He still gets his reliable harass, but he has to disengage to use his resource to heal himself.

I also happen to be one of those weirdos who thinks his ult is fine. I can pick up kills with it, it amplifies team damage to the target by a decent amount... It's interesting, somewhat unique, and works. I see no reason to change it besides possibly adding a health cost to it.

Over Innsmouth4 votes

12% is an excellent starting point when you first level it, but just scales awfully into lategame, we find anyway.

On your thoughts for Roses, I'd like to counter your "ranged mage" issues by referring back to Malicious's (and mine) beliefs that Morde and Vlad are Kindred spirits. Vlad is tanky and has sustain (both in the live incarnation and our theorized one) for days, he has no issues with getting into melee range unless he's against someone that no one wants to be in melee range against (Renekton Darius Riven ). Your comparison to Thresh passive seems off (since to us it seemed more like a modified Zac passive) and we toyed with the idea of letting him reactivate Sanguine Pool early to let him snare everyone on top of the pool, but figured that'd overload his kit.

I at least kind of disagree with your idea of an out-of-combat heal a la Rek'Sai, since we want to emphasize Vlad's in-combat sustain. He has little utility or point outside of combat anyway (unlike Rek'Sai), and the whole point of the well is to make him expend health and use his heal-buffed abilities to get it back.

Your ideas arent bad at all, they're good! There's just a difference of opinion between us.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

I forgot about Zac, honestly; now that you mention it it does fit better. The minions dropping grab-able stuff just reminded me of Thresh. He would probably remind me of Mord if I'd ever played him, but it seems like their AAs (ranged vs melee) should differentiate their laning phase playstyles.

And it seems like a flat 12% should, in theory, be just as effective late game; imagine an ADC getting a flat 12% boost to all damage. Did you guys happen to look into whether the boost was interacting badly with Penetration, OnHit, or Lifesteal/SpellVamp effects?

l Helios l5 votes

Striped pajamas still included.

I like these ideas. They seem really easy to integrate and very impactful in terms of adding decision-making to Vlad. Plus they seem really lore friendly and evoke the lore of a scary Hemomancer.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

Glad you liked the idea!

l Helios l2 votes

That ulti change is really cool. The mechanic forces a very different team fight to erupt if Vladimir scores a kill on it and creates a no man's land for the enemy team. A zone of control sort of. That's a really game changing thing, which is always good to have.

The W also adds actual thought to sustain in lane and in general, which deals with what Meddler discussed as the issue with Vlad. The secondary bar is also an interesting idea. It may warrant some alterations to CDs and damage, but that's not really a problem. The level of thought is pretty awesome.

Well done guys :)

ForeverLaxx4 votes

Long Post. You've been warned.

I used to consider Vlad my main back when he was new to the scene, and even did a lot of theorycrafting on the old boards (most of which was centered around the old Warmog's) that took quite a lot of effort to prove to players at the time. Over the years I got to watch Vlad get nerfed over and over again because of Revolver Stacking and he's never really recovered since. People still pretend that Vlad is impossible to lane against even to this day, and while some item changes have helped him he's far from the nuisance he used to be. However, it's clear that if Vlad is ever going to be put into a state that the game can support, aspects of his kit will have to change. I'd even wager some more item reworks would do him and other "resourceless" mages a few favors as well.

For starters, the real troublesome skill for Vlad is his Q. By design it's an inherently unfair ability that necessitated it being garbage until maxed out or it would be too oppressive. This lends to Vlad's lane identity as being weak until level 9 where he can finally achieve the feeling of being a sustain tank. Now, I don't believe this skill can remain the way it is on live, but I also believe it doesn't have to change what it does for Vlad. What I mean here is that this skill can still be a resourceless, spammable, ranged ability that heals Vlad while damaging enemies. How I think this skill can work while still being healthy and providing a source of counterplay (Riot's new buzz-word of choice) is to change the skill to function like an actual drain. Instead of a damage spike with a bit of delayed healing, his Q would place a DoT on his enemy while putting a HoT on himself. This DoT/HoT would not stack from the same source, meaning that if you hit the same target multiple times all you'd do is refresh the duration rather than build a cascading effect that no one could fight back against. This allows multiple things to happen with the new design: health over time and damage over time are easier mechanics to fight against while still being effective sources of healing/damage when ignored, the lower damage ticks of a DoT also lends itself well to curbing Spell Vamp interactions, and it also increases Vlad's potential "tanking" against groups while simultaneously increasing the likelihood that he'd die when ganged up on because of their being more sources of damage to punch through his HoT stacks. The one thing to be mindful of is how the skill would interact with minions, whether that be the ability to gain no health from minions (but still allow the damage), reduced health from minions (so Vlad can heal between fights), or anything else that comes up from this design change -- I'm partial to the idea that all minions are treated as "the same target" for this Q design, meaning you can put the DoT on any number of minions but still only gain one stream of healing.

Vlad's W, unfortunately known as his "troll pool" (a name I despise, honestly), is probably his most iconic ability and really doesn't merit any changes to itself specifically. It still doesn't protect you from any tethers/DoTs you have on yourself when activated, which means it also would mean that it interacts positively with my proposed Q change above in that you'd gain healing from any Q HoTs while sliding around on the floor, extending your time alive and potentially counteracting the health cost of the skill. Now, if I were to make some potential changes to the skill, I would remove the damage component from this spell (but keep the slowing effect) and instead cause those standing in the pool to suffer a debuff that increases the damage from Vlad's Q DoT while buffing the amount of healing he receives while in "pool form". For those at home, that would mean Vlad would only buff the healing he receives from his own abilities currently damaging enemies (in this case, just his Q HoT and any potential Spell Vamp you may have purchased) since he becomes untargetable while under the Pool's effect and cannot be healed by his allies. This maintains the skill's identity as a survival skill while increasing his survivability against groups IF he first spends the time to throw Qs on multiple people. It also makes sure that when used purely to dodge skills or escape ganks, he's not rewarded for sliding through the minion wave to recoup some of the lost HP for using the skill this way unless he happened to have a Q on those minions, since this change would remove the ability's current intrinsic healing.

Now, I'm really at a loss for what to do with Vlad's E and R. E always felt like it was supposed to be Vlad's main source of offensive threat with Q being there to sustain its use, but it never really worked out that way. My proposed reworks for Q and W would mean E is likely to need to become a completely different skill. As much as I like the idea of building stacks to heal more over the duration of a fight, I don't feel it offers enough to justify keeping around, especially if W were to "inherit" this effect. I'm just not sure what to make the skill while keeping in the theme of a "drain tankmage." Currently I'm leaning in the direction of a toggle skill that, while active, slowly drains your HP for some kind of effect. I'd like avoid making it just a different flavor of Amumu's damage aura, though, so I'm not sure what the effect could be though I do like the negative regeneration for flavor reasons.

As far as Hemoplague is concerned, it always felt out of place to me. While it's true that Vlad is a hemomancer, a disease (even a blood one) seemed outside of his character. I'm not against a team damage amplification ability, though I think it could be handled a bit more elegantly than what we have now. Honestly, your suggestions about it functioning like a real bloodborne disease would work and I think you could roll your proposed W "death blossoms" into this skill instead of tying those to a basic ability. I'd even suggest that this blood flower mist could tag all allies (or just Vlad) with a HoT if they walk through it, which adds more interaction with his Pool assuming it's changed in the manner I proposed.

Anyway, those are just my immediate thoughts, and it's pretty clear that I've been mulling over the Q and W alterations much longer than trying to come up with E and R changes.

iamleburk4 votes

My main problem with this is you nerf his sustain a lot for late game. The thing about being a sustain monster is that you can't have it in lane too much because then they become unkillable. So he needs a sustain skill that would be relatively weak in lane but also very powerful late game, but that W idea might not be enough. Maybe you're blood pool idea will be a bit better, but the whole "sustain off of dead minions" sounds like a great lane mechanic but if that's his only sustain throughout the game I think he might end up in the wrong direction.

EDIT: I also really like the ult change and the Q change. It's just the sustain mini game might be a little too little late game.

Westonbirt4 votes

I see Malicious Metal is branching out into supporting other champions.

Malicious Metal4 votes

Indeed I am, yet I'd appreciate some help since I can't talk about champions I don't play regularly ^^''

GigaPube3 votes

tcdr too cringey didnt read

GawnMower3 votes

the best "no fucks given" gif i have seen

Burnt Iron King3 votes

Can you do a Malzahar one as well?

Spicy Rice2 votes

What we could do is make his q an aoe skill shot (i know, dont crucify me pls), and have it cost hp to cast. If it hits minions, it heals a flat amount, but for every champ hit, it heals a % of vlads max hp.

And if we are going to classify him as a tank, he should scale like one. I.E having his skills have base damages that do %hp damage but have poor scalings.

Mimaropa3 votes

For me, it does not make sense that his q would be a skillshot. Transfusion comes from the enemy champion which he absorbs not the other way around.

I do like the hp% damage. he is a top laner and we dont have a lot of tank busting mages.

Spicy Rice1 votes

Only reason I figured skillshot was for balance. His q is a big problem at the moment because it is a point and click. And to fit the thematic of transfusion, you could make it basically like a swain w. "vlad selects an area to drain his targets of their life essence. After a delay, the targets in the zone are damaged, and vlad gets hp"

ForeverLaxx3 votes

This is just Soraka's self-healing mechanic and I don't think it really fits Vlad's character.

turkeyBACON2 votes

I was going to make a post saying that perhaps your suggested changes were too similar to other champs ie Malzahar and Zac. But then i was going to suggest something but realized that i was describing Tham's grey health... It's hard to come up with new ideas with a 100+ champs already in game.

The Soulforged2 votes

I'll just wait for them to either hardly change anything, or to screw everything up horribly.

StickyDice2 votes

They really need to buff his ult it's just.....nothing......

kasfas1 votes

this would give WotA the means to be buffed and be useful for non-sustain based mages. Now we only need to tackle swains ult and spellvamp can be an actual mechanic.

Malicious Metal5 votes

Somewhere in the distance you can hear the echo of a Hue.

MrBuffington1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Us3EPJJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-02-01T15:00:07.395+0000)

It's official, Vladimir as well as other five immobile mages are going to be reworked mid-year in a class update

Wait, is it actually official? Did they announce for sure? I thought they were still discussing different options. Not that I think Vladmir isn't going to be on the list; I'm mostly asking if Vel'Koz is for sure on the list or if they decided to go with a different mage and do more minor things to Vel'Koz

Burnt Iron King2 votes

Oh, they're definitely working on Vel'koz. The other five are Vlad, Malz, Brand, Cassiopeia and Zyra.

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