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Way to buff turrets while still letting people attempt a quick tower cap early

Z Statistic··4 votes·561 views

First, triple tower hp. Second, put a flask in the shop that increases damage dealt to towers by 200%. This flask costs ~800 gold. Buff lasts 2 minutes. If killed, buff is transferred. Additionally, the item auto applies if you haven't already after 2 minutes. Finally, this flask cannot be bought after 25 minutes.

What this accomplishes: The status quo of tissue paper towers (TPT) is now an opt in. So if you're a Yi and you wanna try to go for a tower at 8 minutes, you can do it by investing 800 gold. However, if you misjudge the situation, you will end up wasting this investment. If you are facing an enemy using a flask, ganking them and stealing their buff is incredibly good counterplay just like red and blue buff. Preventing people from buying the flask after 25 minutes keeps dps from getting out of control mid and late game vs towers. The point is to invest 800 gold EARLY for an EARLY tower, NOT for generic tower damage.

An early tower SHOULD be an option, but the risk should be immense because the payoff is awesome.

17 Comments

disregardable2 votes

If it costs more gold than the tower actually gives you though, no one will ever buy it. That'd be stupid.

Z Statistic2 votes

?

125*5+150= 775. Let's also not forget the non-gold advantages of taking a tower, such as removing the enemy's vision, allowing ease of slow pushing, and increasing the number of paths in enemy territory. Not to mention getting a quick minion buff once 5.23 hits.

Towers are not just gold sacks; they do provide other benefits.

disregardable2 votes

Yeah, expecting one person to sink 800 gold into a net loss for his team isn't delusional at all. Wouldn't be punishing gameplay that no one would ever take part in, overall leaving the entire game with buffed towers in a necessarily extended laning phase that are frankly unfun. Nope, not at all.

Z Statistic2 votes

So 1 cs of gold is worth more than denying the enemy vision, being able to slow push more easily, and opening up your paths of attack/escape in the enemy jungle?

I mean, if you say so, but we'll have to agree to disagree. Tripling the tower health also allows you to back once, even when winning, without having to worry that your full health tower is going to be killed by one or two people before you can walk back.

disregardable1 votes

Yeah, I personally love sitting in lane phase for 20 minutes because I can't kill the tower. It's my favorite part of the game.

Z Statistic1 votes

Surprisingly, some people (not just me) do in fact like farming, trading, and carefully going through laning for more than just 5 minutes. Plenty of people complain about games being too short here. Laning phase pretty much is over after a tower has been taken. If towers are flimsier, then laning phase will be over sooner. However, due to level scaling and item scaling, even if towers are buffed, past a certain point it doesn't extend the laning much if at all.

If we had an extreme where towers had 50k hp, laning phase would still last until about lvl 9 or so because 5 man pushing is very powerful. Even if you meet the enemy, there's little stopping them from simply rotating to another lane and dealing damage to it before you get there. The reason we farm is to get powerful in order to win teamfights if challenged when taking turrets/objectives, not in order to take towers faster.

Irelia Bot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RgUyhRw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-23T00:06:36.538+0000)

If it costs more gold than the tower actually gives you though, no one will ever buy it. That'd be stupid.

If you are having issues taking a tower late game this would be a risky but potentially rewarding thing to try in some games.

IIt should not be intended to be a rush item but more a way to stop the enemy having an effective turret defense stalking out the game with some real risk involved.

disregardable1 votes

You missed the part where he said not buyable after 25 minutes. And even in that case, the only person that could buy it would be the ADC; in a defended turret situation no one else could get in range.

Z Statistic1 votes

I didn't really think about that, but I could see that the buff transfer effect would discourage spamming the flask just because and only use it if: a) you are extremely safe b) transferring the buff doesn't change the outcome i.e. you're already most likely to lose

Still, the intention would be to allow a player to opt in to getting an early tower by risking a snowball.

BakedLotion2 votes

This is stupid. Paying 800 gold to lose lane... Chances are, the enemy isnt going to let you touch their turret. If they see you with the flask, they're not gonna leave lane for two minutes. If you really want this to work, make it last atleast 10 minutes, then MAYBE. Not to mention it just gives your opponent an incentive to 3-5 man gank you to take it and you're now behind 1 kill, 4 assists, and 800 gold. Along with the enemy doing double turret damage.

Also, games dont even last 25 minutes anymore so this is basically a perm-shop purchase.

Z Statistic1 votes

I mean, that's the risk. Obviously it paints a target on your head, but it's not a meaningless target. You're not going to buy it every game on every champion. Some champions just don't take towers well.

Besides, what's going to stop a group of players from 3-5 man ganking just because? How does the absence of this flask make 3-5 man ganking a non-option and suddenly the flask makes it the only option? I'm pretty sure 3-5 man ganking is, and has been, an EXTREMELY effective tactic for a long time. There's ALREADY an incentive to 3-5 man gank you as you point out: 1 kill and 4 assists (although 4 assists on the same person is the same as 1 assist on an enemy; gold is split in assists).

The problem in making it last too long is that proper rotation would allow you to take 2 or maybe 3 turrets super fast for the price of only 800 gold. If it's POSSIBLE but not likely because the enemy has ample time to respond, then it's a great way to reward well-planned play. One way to make sure that there is ample window of opportunity to use it when active would be to make the buff last 10 minutes but then rapidly decrease as you attacked a turret and eventually being consumed upon taking said turret. I don't exactly like that version though because there's no real tension in playing that out; it's simply at your convenience.

BakedLotion1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Menea Calais,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RgUyhRw,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-11-23T01:02:43.499+0000)

I mean, that's the risk. Obviously it paints a target on your head, but it's not a meaningless target. You're not going to buy it every game on every champion. Some champions just don't take towers well.

Besides, what's going to stop a group of players from 3-5 man ganking just because? How does the absence of this flask make 3-5 man ganking a non-option and suddenly the flask makes it the only option? I'm pretty sure 3-5 man ganking is, and has been, an EXTREMELY effective tactic for a long time. There's ALREADY an incentive to 3-5 man gank you as you point out: 1 kill and 4 assists (although 4 assists on the same person is the same as 1 assist on an enemy; gold is split in assists).

The problem in making it last too long is that proper rotation would allow you to take 2 or maybe 3 turrets super fast for the price of only 800 gold. If it's POSSIBLE but not likely because the enemy has ample time to respond, then it's a great way to reward well-planned play. One way to make sure that there is ample window of opportunity to use it when active would be to make the buff last 10 minutes but then rapidly decrease as you attacked a turret and eventually being consumed upon taking said turret. I don't exactly like that version though because there's no real tension in playing that out; it's simply at your convenience.

Like I said, buying this item makes you lose lane. Enemy is gonna be up ~20 AD because you made a terrible buy. Lasting two minutes? That's stupid. Anyone with reasonable waveclear isn't going to let you utilize it.

People don't 5 man gank you because it's inefficient. You get like 400 gold at most in total. What do you lose? Possible two towers, 2 waves of farm, and you might not even kill the enemy. If theres an extra 800 gold to earn, you're going to immediately get ganked every possible chance

Z Statistic1 votes

What? No.

You 5 man gank bot, take their tower, and then go for dragon. That's more than 1600 gold right there. You could also 3 man gank top, get tower, and grab herald. Or you could 4 man gank mid, take tower, and then get dragon.

This is the entire reason top lane got TP for virtually all of Season 5 on virtually every champion. 5 man ganks on bot can snowball a game extremely hard.

Here is a situation where you would grab this pushing flask: you have a ton of waveclear and tower taking. The enemy is pushing a tower and you're at base. You buy the flask and TP to the furthest lane and beat them the tower while your team may or may not be able to beat them off your own.

Besides, what about buying the flask and then having your jungler/mid help gank so that you can together easily take a tower? All of what you've said has assumed that the flask buyer is in yoloqueue where teamwork doesn't exist and the enemy is a premade team that has 100% teamwork. I mean, yoloqueue can be stupid, but if a team of the same skill can have the thought process of "hey, let's all work together to gank this guy and snowball the game!" then it's extremely reasonable to assume that a team is just as likely to say, "hey, let's all work together to protect this guy and capitalize on his snowball!"

I'm kind of confused as to what you're disagreeing about though. You have a problem with the fact that it puts you back a lot even though I specify that's the point. You have a problem that it is extremely risky since the enemy can easily turn the investment against you, which is the point. And you also say that this flask is so powerful that virtually everyone would want to buy it in every game. That contradicts the first statement, but ok. I suppose I disagree that it would be ubiquitous, but it has to be powerful because it is very risky after all. That's the point.

So, what are we disagreeing about again?

BluePolarizer1 votes

800 gold is a gigantic investment for a consumable. It is absolutely unbuyable if it is this much gold. No one will buy it except for an ADC on a snowballing team.

400 gold is much more reasonable if you want this to be anything other than a "ADC got 2 kills in lane, gg" item.

SolusInCadere1 votes

I like the idea. I'm a little confused about how the buff works thou. Is it like our refillable's where you can activate it after purchase, or is it like buying a 'rape towers' version of red buff.

The reason I ask is because other poeple were talking about just waiting out the 2 min and putting the enemy laner at an 800 gold disadvantage. But if one could buy it then activate it only when they wanted to get a tower, then things are much different.

Actually, either way all that needs to happen is my jungler to come in at force a back/kill, then we take the tower together.

I definalty approve of the "tissue paper tower buy in" mentality.

My fear is that this would become a msut buy on every champion, kinda like flash is a must take on 99% of champions, regardless of role. If done wrong this could just delay each top laner's second item by 800 gold.

P.S. we should call the item: Rape Towers Red Buff.

Z Statistic1 votes

Basically.

I suggest that the item auto-activate after 2 minutes because letting the thing sit in your inventory as long as you like means that the enemy has no way to play around it. They absolutely must stay in lane because leaving for any reason would mean losing the tower (even for Shen to ult bot and then TP back up to top.) That would probably lead to a game of chicken in lane. The flask is also so powerful that even if you're losing, using the flask when the enemy laner cannot respond is an auto tower for you.

Keeping the window of opportunity small means that it's not a must-buy every game. It is a hefty gold sink and very risky. That small window keeps the number of viable scenarios to a minimum, and the skill comes from identifying those scenarios and playing it out right. And since it's opt in instead of thrust upon you, you can make the game extremely exciting. It's like the enemy team sniping baron early on. It's a huge spike but it's not necessarily enough to guarantee a snowball in mid game.

The main difference is that baron isn't transferable. If that were the case, baron would be extremely risky. Still, baron is more powerful than this flask of tower rapage, so that would probably just be a coup de grace.

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