I feel bad for using plants honestly...

L0ve Is Blue·Nov 10, 2016·82 votes·3,771 views

Katarina totaly wrecks me in lane, get my tower, zone me out all game long, gets out of every gank against her, gets ahead.

Then she meets me and my jungler in our jungle after we attack Vi taking red buff. She kills my jungler easily, I start running, she is faster than me and then...

Blast cone just in my path. Auto attack. Kill denied. Just got lucky and had a plant on my path. Healthy gameplay would have been me using a CC ability to deny her the chase, or a teammate comming to help me out. She would then react to this and that creates interesting situations.

But happening to have a randomly spawning plant that gives me a free dash just doesn't feel right at all. I am an immobile champion, it's one of my weaknesses and I should've been aware of that. I wasn't and I should have been punished, but luck was on my side. And it makes me feel so upset. Because the reason I love playing this game is because its one of those game where your entire performance is based on your skills. Now it wasn't.

80 Comments

GlaedrNov 10, 201623 votes

My favorite part is how it adds absolutely nothing to the game. Riot releases an article talking about depth and complexity and it's just hilarious how less than a month later they come up with one of the dumbest mechanics that goes against what is in this page. Sure, let's add something that just fucks people over for no real reason which adds literally zero depth to the game. It's just garbage that pisses people off.

L0ve Is BlueNov 10, 201612 votes

And litteraly almost all the community was telling them not to add them. But when Riot wants to add something, they do!

Vel'Koz rework

Dynamic queue

and now plants

TheSingularityNov 11, 201614 votes

While I don't disagree that thus far plants are meh, fucking hate the feel of new velkoz with a passion and that I personally dislike riots delusion that somehow plants add "depth" to the game. Riot has invested too much time into plants to not try them out, especially during preseason.... the safest time period to test controversial content.

Would be like, in my current situation. Studying all year for an exam then not taking said exam because I'm to worried about a bad result

L0ve Is BlueNov 11, 20165 votes

Omg I thought I was the only one who hated vel'koz's rework with all my heart and soul! HAIL SATAN

TheSingularityNov 11, 20167 votes

I can't stand playing him now. I'd rather play fken full AD illaoi mid because she does the same thing only better.

Just like..... before for me velkoz was played like;

Full magic pen, 20 from runes, 30 from items. I'd shred tanks with that and pop squishies with true dmg.
Support velkoz was viable BECAUSE he didn't rely on stupid amounts of gold for expensive items.
He was the definition of a perfect mage. He had a good skill ceiling, counter match ups, a defined role and was above all else, 99.99% perfectly balanced.
A fair skill floor. With full mpen, you could rely on poking from range instead of landing a wombo combo (me initially)
And my favorite part...... I COULD PLAY HIM IN THE JUNGLE!!!!!!!

Now..... scrap all of that.... now he's just;

A generic mage who builds the same thing as everyone else.
Support velkoz works but no where near as well.
All he has now is a skill ceiling...... all he does now is melt the front line assuming his ult which has 50% of his power budget isn't interupted.
A shitty lane phase with an underwhelming power curve
Mpen doesn't do shit with this new passive.....
And with mpen dead..... jungle velkoz dies with it

All we can do is hope.... that we can get him kogged back to normal

AlleoNov 11, 20161 votes

I main vel'koz and he still works fine. You never needed to build magic pen because of his true damage. I agree that they never should have reworked him, but his ult having the passive back on it now makes him better. I build ROA, rylais, ludens, sorcerer shoes, death cap, and either zhonyas or morello. Plenty of damage. His laning phase is still fine if you know what you're doing, and he can melt anyone in fights, not just front line.

Tl;dr - he is just as fine to play now as he was before his rework.

TheSingularityNov 12, 20161 votes

Before his ult wasn't cringe worthy and dependant on landing 3 stacks. His ult is improved, but still feels garbage compared to the old one.

Note the word, feels. It may be better damage wise. But in practice it feels like shit for ur average joe

Am I bad? Yes Am I lazy? Yes Which is why I hate the fact that I MUST land 3 stacks in a hyper mobile meta in order to do anything. Before this I could throw out combo and ult. If I missed people big deal. My ult can still zone. But non researched targets don't give 2 shits about my ult.

AlleoNov 17, 20161 votes

For the most part if they aren't a tank you can just go Q R and get a kill.

The WhamboozlerNov 11, 20162 votes

You left out...

Cass rework

Skarner rework

Morde rework

Fiora rework

And nearly every change they've made to jungle with each season.

AnidanNov 11, 20162 votes

Eh.. I'd say the Fiora rework in fine, honestly. It can feel sucky to play against sometimes, but at least it's not old Fiora where she went 3/0 in lane and then become a silly ult-bot in teamfights that was almost guaranteed to pick up a kill or two, in addition to what she could find with her 2 dashes + steroid, or she went 0/3 and was completely useless for anything but PvE. Now she has to really commit for a longer period of time for fights, and she isn't completely invulnerable to all types of damage while still dealing out high amounts of it herself at the same time.

She can be frustrating, but it's a far sight better than before, and this is coming from someone who liked playing her pre-rework. She's not really unhealthy for the game, nor is she completely binary. Besides, a lot of champions people really enjoy can be pretty frustrating when they're ahead or played well - Fiora is no different in that regard.

The WhamboozlerNov 11, 20161 votes

was more addressing her terrible model change and splash art but... I won't get into this argument AGAIN save to say I disagree. Her old ult was pretty crappy, but her new ult makes no freakin sense. She duels you so well that healing goo flies out of your corpse for her and her team to smear all over themselves. It doesn't fit her thematically... it's weak. It was slapped on to give her a better teamfight presence.

AnidanNov 11, 20162 votes

If you were addressing her model and splash, then why was that not clear in the slightest..? Just curious, because the way it was worded, most people would address the mechanics part of the rework, not the artistic part of the rework.

And I won't take part in the mechanics discussion either beyond my initial post besides saying I disagree with your stance as well, but opinions are just that and it's not harmful to have a different perspective. Especially since we can't really directly influence the game much.

TeCoolMageNov 11, 20161 votes

Cass rework was good, both mordekaisers suck, old fiora was a pain, but skarner wasn't good.

The WhamboozlerNov 11, 20161 votes

First Cass rework was NOT good. It was a garbage fire that left her unplayable. They've had to tweak her multiple times since then to make her playable again.

TeCoolMageNov 11, 20161 votes

She's no longer E spam reliant and can do damage purely with her Q for a long amount of time, doesn't have a mini game passive any more (yes, her current passive is much better), uses cooldown reduction well now, is much easier for players to pick up and has a much easier time with a much less punishing E. She's also no longer completely countered by mobility, and makes hitting Q feel like something worth doing on it's own merit rather than because I don't want to fall behind on her passive sacks.

So what if her numbers were bad, do you think reworks are meant to be perfect? Of course they need tweaking after since the PBE is a completely different environment from live

EDIT: Ok 'first' rework, nvm. I wasn't there but her current rework was gold and was completely spot on and you shouldn't ignore that

TeCoolMageNov 11, 20161 votes

The WhamboozlerNov 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

She's no longer E spam reliant and can do damage purely with her Q for a long amount of time, doesn't have a mini game passive any more (yes, her current passive is much better), uses cooldown reduction well now, is much easier for players to pick up and has a much easier time with a much less punishing E. She's also no longer completely countered by mobility, and makes hitting Q feel like something worth doing on it's own merit rather than because I don't want to fall behind on her passive sacks.

Everything you're describing here was what she was like before her first terrible rework. Old Cass used her Q to poke and farm in lane, and lategame became an E spamming machine gun hypercarry. Given that you needed to land Q and W hits to KEEP spamming E, she DID love CDR... and her ult countered mobile champs with hard engage like it always has.

The new things Cass has is a slight heal on her E and her new W. If when they first changed cass they had simply added those things, that would have been fine. Instead they nuked her into the ground and made her play the "passive stacking game" to matter at ALL, like some kinda shitty AP nasus. Everything you're talking about her being able to do now that makes her good are things she could do before.

And maybe it's just personal to me since I played her, but I don't give credit for that. You don't get to brag about fixing something you messed up in the first place. What's more, she was garbage unplayable bad for a LONG time post-rework and the rework itself was handled REALLY poorly by Riot's staff... who essentially just pretended the massive outcry against it wasn't happening and refused to comment on it at all. At least with the Fiora debacle they put up a back-patting post that said "yeah, it was bad but excuses excuses excuses". With Cass they never admitted anything... or even talked about it. They just threw her in the garbage and said NOTHING for about a year before finally quietly making her playable again with no fanfare.... like they hoped by then that the cass players had forgotten. It was really, REALLY slimy and rude of them.

Bodkins OddsNov 12, 20161 votes

You should largely replace Riot in this post with RiotStashu, as the poorly made wretch of a rework she got in 2014 (and the lack of followup afterwards) was entirely his fault. The fact that he's still working at Riot after the way he treated Cass players still pisses me off.

Thank goodness for RiotRepertoir.

L0ve Is BlueNov 11, 20161 votes

Cass rework is probably the best thing that happened to her since she got destroyed by her first rework.

The WhamboozlerNov 11, 20161 votes

I was referring to the first rework. Every rework since then has been just trying to undo the damage the first one caused.

DracocrashNov 10, 201615 votes

Agreed, same thing happened to me except the positions were reversed.

I felt so "outplayed" (not)

stupid RNG.

L0ve Is BlueNov 10, 201612 votes

And its not only with blast cone!

I hate using an AA on a random plant and reveal half the map and every unit on it with no downside at all.

I hate seeing people just pop a plant and heal 50% of their health then go back to their business.

And I hate the situation I stated in my post.

BoswickNov 11, 201613 votes

Riot 2012: RNG is bad, we're removing the dodge stat from the game. Riot 2016: We've added plants and RNG dragon buffs.

ElikainNov 11, 20161 votes

Except that in one case, RNG was intruding on gameplay and in all of the cases, the outcome of your laning phase depended with how lucky or unlucky you've gotten (dodge). Practically the same way crit Tryndamere still works, he can either crit you once or twice and you forfeit a kill. Then you start losing the lane from the get-go. Or he doesn't get lucky at all, he makes all the mistakes and starts losing from the get-go.

Where does RNG from the dragon buff cycler intrude on gameplay? After you kill a dragon, you are immediately told which other buff is spawning in the next 6 minutes, so even if the buff is random, you have sufficient time to think of a strategy with your team and decide if the buff is worth contesting or not. The buffs are random because Riot didn't want people (especially pro teams) thinking of strategies that involve specific team comps that take off from specific preset buffs spawning and ignoring the unnecessary ones.

If Flame Dragon would spawn at specific times (let's say 1st spawn and 3rd), people would then always fight for those objectives, leading to predictable gameplay decisions and team comps evolving to be capable of fighting as early as level 4.

If Cloud Drake would spawn at specific times (let's say 4th and 6th), as the least valuable dragon buff, people wouldn't even go for it unless the it was free. it wouldn't be worth contesting or even trading for anything else so a team would clean it up only to make room for another dragon.

Honestly, fuck off with the complaints. You're complaining for the sake of complaining. The PRNG Riot put into DBC and Plants isn't replacing skill for luck in your games as you have sufficient information before any of these things happen that let you know how the map will be evolving in the near future. This makes the gameplay portion of each SR game dynamic and unique. Because at any given time, your choices aren't exactly the same and the gameplay isn't something you need to practice enough times to be able to micromanage every decision.

On a macro level, everyone should know how the game works to know how and when to make proper decisions while on a micro level, player skill and finesse matters the most. This is what separates mediocre players from the great ones.

LuunaLilyNov 11, 201611 votes

As a jungle main, I'm loving most of the changes they introduced. (Except for Raptors, my lord do they hurt).

I don't find this to be any different from scuttle. I don't know how many times the scuttle crab has been in the perfect position for me to escape using a Fizz Q or Poppy E. I think there's lots of aspects to the game people get used to. So far I find the plants to be pretty fun. The scrying plant (whatever its called) actually has decent counterplay to it too. You just check the edge of the enemy jungle for it every once and use theirs. Just treat it like an objective. Plus the blast cones actually make flanking and gank paths a lot more interesting and diverse. The honey fruit slows, so they won't be able to grab all of them unless they have quite a lead on you. Even so, no different than a lucky scuttler position. Plus I've found the honey fruit to be really useful for topping up before dragon or ganks.

To each their own I guess. I hope you adjust and come to like them. We all know Riot won't be changing them until Mid-Season at the very earliest. (Highly unlikely though)

Immortal spaxNov 10, 20167 votes

I mean, they arent random like you say, they spawn in exact position every time the exact purpose to each one, if she keeps chasing and you run toward the health plan, its her fault that you killed her, not your to use a feature that the game gave to you.

L0ve Is BlueNov 10, 20163 votes

They have a set number of areas where they can spawn but its still random

FairyfleurNov 11, 20161 votes

its also telegraphed how long it takes for them to spawn.

L0ve Is BlueNov 11, 20161 votes

where?

FairyfleurNov 11, 20161 votes

The information was shown in the patch notes, before you complain at least get the info. It also tells you exactly when the spawn at the beginning of the game, and how many the can be in a quadrant of the jungle.

L0ve Is BlueNov 11, 20163 votes

Thats nowhere in the game you would have to see the exact time the plant pop and then start counting how long it will take for it to respawn.

Glory ln DeathNov 11, 20162 votes

See a seed - sometime in the next minute it'll be ready.

See a seedling - sometime in the next 30 seconds it'll be ready.

Pretty easy.

Immortal spaxNov 12, 20161 votes

yes, but she knows that there are plants in a jungle, its like whinig because u chase a low health leona in her tower.

The Space CowboyNov 10, 20166 votes

Last night I killed my Jhin with a blast cone. It pushed 3 enemies away from me, and him into them. Once the trolls figure this out god help us all.

HigeNov 10, 20165 votes

Kat was able to see the plant and still jumped forward... that decision wasn't RNG, she deserves to loose that kil.

L0ve Is BlueNov 10, 201611 votes

She couldn't see it. Even I didn't see it. It just happened to be in my path when i escaped and denied a free kill to kat.

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/45/1478821328-untitled.png

Red line being my escape path, Red circle the area of the fight. blue dot is the plant and blue line is the dash.

TheHappyReaperzNov 11, 20164 votes

And plants are visible to allies and enemies. So, she knew it was there, but probably either didn't care, or thought she could kill you before you reach it.

L0ve Is BlueNov 11, 201611 votes

you can't see if its spawned or not

HigeNov 11, 20165 votes

things dont just happen in your path in league man, you have a radius of vision around your character, if the plant matured just as you got close that's something else but if Kat was able to see you, she was, without a doubt, aware of the plant as well.

L0ve Is BlueNov 11, 20169 votes

how could she see something

through a wall

Need another drawing?????

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/45/1478830398-untitled.png

PimasterchampionNov 11, 20162 votes

I can't understand your drawing.

Supreme Senpai69Nov 11, 20164 votes

I like it in the fact that going into an enemy's jungle is more risky and harder. That Kat can't just walk into your jungle and murder your team anymore. The jungle is a safe space of sorts. They won't know what plants are in there but you will. Blindly chasing kills is risky now, unless you first scout it out with a Scryer's Bloom.

I think plants need a bit more tuning but I really am starting to like them

L0ve Is BlueNov 11, 20167 votes

Jungle should be neutral territory thought. People should mobilise themselves to defend it and react quickly when they see threat coming from it. People should ward the jungle to be aware of all movement in it.

But why ward and be carefull when you now have plants that gives a throbant advantage in any situation to anyone who aa it first.

going in the enemy jungle should NOT be dangerous if the enemy is unnaware of your presence and can't react properly. It should be in the opposite case. But going in the enemy jungle should not be dangerous in a way where they have free tools to fuck you up/see you coming when you get there.

LightSwordNov 11, 20161 votes

Though the jungle was supposed to be defensible by the team on a given side of the map. This gives the ability to look at what is in your jungle and play around it.

Also, plants have counterplay. You can use Scryer's Blooms to see what camps are around if you see the jungler on the other side of the map, blast cones can aid an escape after a counterjungle successfully stole a camp.

Pretty much, what I'm trying to say is plants have a reasonable place in League of Legends, though I do agree that they may need fine-tuning. I also wouldn't call them random because the places they can spawn are set, so there's only so much rng involved, probably not nearly as high as one might think.

L0ve Is BlueNov 11, 20161 votes

Though the jungle was supposed to be defensible by the team on a given side of the map. This gives the ability to look at what is in your jungle and play around it.

It is supposed to be defensible in a manner where a team has more access to a side of it than the other, not because said team have tools to protect it.

Also, plants have counterplay. You can use Scryer's Blooms to see what camps are around if you see the jungler on the other side of the map, blast cones can aid an escape after a counterjungle successfully stole a camp.

those are leggit 2 example of no counterplay offered by plants

LightSwordNov 11, 20161 votes

I may concede the first point, but I will simply clarify the second. In both cases I presented, it actually gives you an advantage while invading the enemy jungle, meaning you can use the plants that are such good defense tools as tools for offense (not to mention Katarina can shunpo to a blast cone and attack it to pop it for a really long range dash).

What I will say, is the free health in the river has no place and simply needs to go (seriously, that crap is broken).

All in all however, I will not say whether or not the plants will stay or if it is right for them to say. Because of a large number of preseason changes (per usual) there are still plenty of things to test out before definitely stating that plants have/don't have a place in LoL.

L0ve Is BlueNov 11, 20161 votes

In both cases I presented, it actually gives you an advantage while invading the enemy jungle

And????? still has no counterplay at all. The first one to auto attack the plant just gets and advantage, no counterplay at all really.

CC MustangNov 11, 20163 votes

Well you can see where the plants will spawn for a a minute or 2 before they actually do spawn. This allows you to plan ahead if you are aware of the map.

UltîmaNov 11, 20165 votes

Eh.

The plants are too easy to take to make their use a planned thing, like taking a jungle camp. They are reactive by nature, as opposed to strategic, which is perfectly represented in the OP's scenario.

SpoofghoulNov 11, 20162 votes

so far ive escaped several death's using plants

and gained several kills

not once have they actually been a disadvantage to me, i immediately started using them for my advantage and it pays off my enemies jut havent figured them out as well as i have yet

but im sure it is going to be cancer when every ranged champ can satchel charge melee's to prevent them from going anywhere