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@Meddler: What about an ultimate that can knockback OR vacuum based on a condition?

darkdill··5 votes·8,139 views
Freesia, the Spirit Dancer

The above concept has a version of such an ultimate, but I'll excerpt it here:

Grand Finale Freesia spins and, after a short wind-up (0.5 seconds), deals 150/225/300 (+0.4 AP) magic damage to all nearby enemies (400 range) and removes all Spirit Samba marks from all units in the AOE. Freesia also gains a shield that absorbs up to 60/70/80 (+0.2 AP) damage for each enemy Champion hit, and lasts up to 6 seconds.

Maximum shield strength: 300/350/400 (+1.0 AP)

If Freesia last used Spirit Samba on an allied unit, Grand Finale will knock back all enemies struck. If Freesia last used Spirit Samba on an enemy unit, Grand Finale will vacuum in all enemies struck.

The idea of this is that Freesia is constantly darting between allied and enemy Champions, and using this she can select between either a pushback or a vacuum with her ultimate (but not both at the same time). This can lead to some awesome plays, or terrible terrible mistakes, separating "good from great" players.

But would such an ultimate be too packed?

26 Comments

RiotMeddler5 votes

Vacuums risk creating extreme differences between average case and best case scenarios when paired with other champions. There's still a need to balance noticeably around the best case synergies though, so they can be pretty problematic both in terms of balance and in terms of how they warp team comps. We tend to be pretty cautious of them as a result.

Polarity kits (if A do X otherwise if B do -X) can be really punishing on the player. In most situations the cost of failure is that you don't do the thing you're trying to do (skillshot misses for example) or you get a less optimal result (only hit one person with an Amumu ult instead of the team). With a polarity approach however failure means you get the exact opposite of the result you were trying for. That is a way to increase a character's skill ceiling, it also makes their skill floor a lot more difficult too however. It's often not a great way to give a kit more potential for mastery compared to other options as a result (assuming a goal of easy to learn/hard to master of course, if that's not a principle being used it's a different story).

darkdill3 votes

Ahh, I see. Even if there was an indicator over your head telling you which direction the ult will send your opponents, it'd probably be too high-difficulty to be fun?

Guess I'll need to consider other ultimates. What do you think you'd do for a high-mobility Support?

RiotMeddler4 votes

An indicator would help a little, to avoid those sort of misplays though you'd probably need to put a noticeable delay between selection of knockback versus vacuum and trigger of the effect unless going for something as reliable as Karma or Heimer's ult models of spell modifier. At that point though you're just giving one champion their choice of two extremely powerful effects and even then there's some potential for really punishing failure as outlined.

I'd start by answering the question of why, in gameplay terms (not thematics), a high mobility support would be a good idea, besides just novelty. That should offer some principles to assess ult options by.

darkdill3 votes

Novelty is one thing, but it also enables the creation of extremely mobile compositions that can just completely outmaneuver slower enemies, without leaving a slow support behind to get ripped apart by a chaser.

Ever had a moment where your ADC is Ezreal, Corki or Lucian, and they go over a wall and leave you behind? They go too far ahead of you, and then die and blame you on the context of "keep up, dammit!" when you couldn't possibly keep up as, say, Soraka or Janna (without using Flash). Braum can sorta get around this, but doesn't also zip around like Lee Sin in a ward network.

Additionally, in my design, a high-mobility support would be short-ranged and lacking poke, requiring more decisive action on behalf of the player. You wouldn't be able to just sit back and do nothing against someone like Sona or Nami, who would otherwise poke you to death, but engaging at the wrong time can mean death. Unique disadvantages, but it would also enable unique strengths.

Most importantly, a highly-mobile support hasn't really been done yet (supports with haste effects don't count). It'd be totally new to the lineup, and would open up some very distinct playstyles.

Whether or not those are good enough reasons is probably something you'd know more about.

Hi Im Gilphi v21 votes

its a horrible and bad idea

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Noice.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

Saying it's bad is fine (everyone is entitled to their opinion), but at least give some sort of reason for it. Doesn't even have to be a logical reason, just be more specific about what portions of the concept make you feel that it wouldn't fit in the game. It's the difference between constructive criticism and just plain ol' whining.

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

I personally kind of like the idea but, perhaps the champ could do some kind of escape like ability to help their ally however not in a way similar to tahm, maybe more like a thresh w where you are able to help a teammate change their position in a less safe but faster way then Tahm but also maybe with more of a focus on helping to start a fight or bring a champ into the fight instead of keeping them away from the fight. It could work as a replacement for the q as if you want to have a true focus on the idea of a mobile support, Whatever the decision I find her very intersting, though just a tip

To me personally one of the champions who feels the most nimble is Jinx after getting a kill in the middle of a team fight, she doesn't gain cc immunity or even any form of dash but if the movement speed is a massive boost and the animation is good you can feel nimble and fast without having to actually rely on dash or blinks, The new Quinn also gives off this feeling in that your ult a level 16 makes you feel crazy fast but if you get hit by minions even though you only go down to the normal movement speed for quinn you feel slow because of how its communicated to you.

Best of Luck*[slayer-jinx-wink]*

RiotRiot mEMurr1 votes

My argument against a high mobility support would be to ask about its underlying function. Generally, high, continual mobility is tied to assassins who need to get close or someone like Lee to set up ganks. Their strategic decision is when to commit and aim for a kill. What's the play pattern for a support who has multiple dashes and how does it add to the game? Simply dashing in and out to do damage without much room for retaliation (like a Leblanc) could make for a pretty toxic lane. If there's a reasonable timeframe for opponents to retaliate and your support is squishy, then a lot of your success is based on your opponents messing up rather than you making the right choices.

In addition, you do have short ranged support champions like Leona and Thresh who have a gap closer and have to time when to go all in. They have the dynamic of all-in or get poked down.

I would also argue that mobile ADCs going over a wall is often an edge case. I feel like this only happens a couple of times a game with these champions, which means it wouldn't be a core part of the identity. In addition, these ADCs are dicks if they then yell at you :P

Finally, I think extreme mobility champions increase the skill discrepancy between ELOs. It makes for greater balancing difficulties while potentially resulting in an underpowered champion for a large amount of the userbase.

I think there's some really cool thematic ideas here, but I also think there should be some more consideration for the people playing against your champion.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

Well it could attract a new kind of player to support

And I'm sure a sup with more mobility could have some niche of their own, possibly dealing with high mobility enemy teams

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

If you read his example, I think in that case it depends on the champion's last position - and as such it'd leave a mark on allies and enemies. It would have a different color, with a shape that says "outwards" or "inwards". I think it'd be decently readable.

darkdill1 votes

I think I've got it, Meddler! Here's Freesia's new ultimate!

Show-Stealer Salsa Freesia dashes to target enemy Champion (550 range) and steals 20/25/30% (+1% per 50 AP) of the target's attack damage and ability power for 6 seconds. Freesia can then recast this ability within 3 seconds to dash to target allied Champion and transfer the stats she stole to her target, increasing their stats for 6 seconds. If Freesia does not transfer the stats within 3 seconds, they are lost.

All stat modifiers decay over their respective duration. The stats given to your ally are equal to the amounts you initially stole.

She needed a good reason to be picked, and now she's got one really good one. If you're expecting the enemy team to be banking their offense on one character, or an enemy player gets out of control, just use Show-Stealer Salsa and you have the opportunity to turn your enemy's offense into a strength for one of your teammates. But it's not a given deal; you first have to dash onto that enemy and then get away from them within a short time limit, all while the enemy is trying to slaughter you. Should be awesome for some big plays.

What do you think?

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

Personally I think the mechanic could work, provided she has no 1v1 duelist potential elsewhere in her kit (which I have not looked at yet).

darkdill1 votes

Her damage is intended to be low, including the AP ratios for her damage. I might have some numbers wrong, but that's one of the problems when you don't have a test environment.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

Quick clarification, because the wording is confusing me a bit. Enemy's stats are reduced for 6 seconds regardless, and Freesia gets the stats for 3 seconds or until she tags an ally, in which case the ally gets them for the remainder of the 6 seconds?

darkdill1 votes

The ally gets extra stats for 6 seconds, not for the remaining 6. The extra stats given are equal to what you initially stole.

Additionally, Freesia does not get any bonus stats herself from the ult. So she can't use this to boost her own AP.

Thanks for pointing the bad wording out. I've updated it.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

Ah, so she's merely a courier, and doesn't borrow any for herself.

darkdill1 votes

Moreorless. This cements her support role rather than making her a potential assassin pick.

LilxPaprika1 votes

@

{quoted} ....so they can be pretty problematic both in terms of balance and in terms of how they warp team comps.

Do you think an AOE defensive item could help cope with these types of comp? AOE resistance / or support item? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LE24pgEl-aoe-resistance-or-support-item

especially with the recent changes to JarvanIV's ult in this 6.5 patch. As well as Vi's E etc

Maybe in the form of a item 3170 type item. instead of the tenacity. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AkciMpVb-like-if-you-think-moonflair-spellblade-should-be-on-sr

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Polarity kits (if A do X otherwise if B do -X) can be really punishing on the player. In most situations the cost of failure is that you don't do the thing you're trying to do (skillshot misses for example) or you get a less optimal result (only hit one person with an Amumu ult instead of the team). With a polarity approach however failure means you get the exact opposite of the result you were trying for. That is a way to increase a character's skill ceiling, it also makes their skill floor a lot more difficult too however. It's often not a great way to give a kit more potential for mastery compared to other options as a result (assuming a goal of easy to learn/hard to master of course, if that's not a principle being used it's a different story).

it can also make a character interesting. i mean it didnt really stop you with this guy.

Bard

or are you actually regretting that you guys made his ult? because its the most polarizing ability that i can think of. worst case scenario is that youre saving the entire enemy team from your own engage (for example negate a perfect amumu ult, malphite ult or a tibbers fom your teammates. or even worse, all 3).

or it can do exactly the opposite and singlehandedly win you the game by saving your entire team.

Elphrihaim2 votes

I will never understand how these threads and each reply in them don't have like 10-30 upvotes, because they're really interesting every time I read them

LostFr0st1 votes

Aurelion Sol's Ult has a conditional knockback.

darkdill2 votes

It doesn't vacuum, though. This ultimate could do both (but not simultaneously).

LostFr0st2 votes

Wouldn't that be frustrating for the enemy?

You go in under the condition of it being on vacuum...get knocked back Try to run since you have the chance (it's a knockback now)...RIP it turned into vacuum.

I'd rather have a consistent ult for everyone on both teams.

Akenero1 votes

Orianna ult accomplishes this based upon position.

Orianna is an amazingly designed champion

Dessem1 votes

From just playing alongside someone, though, I'd want clarity whether my ally is drawing in all enemies or pushing them away, WITHOUT having to pay attention to their skill use patterns. Like, I want to see the ult animation and instantly know what it does, and I want to be able to reliably expect it to replicate that result.

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