Giving Supports more agency without giving them more damage

Brascus··6 votes·549 views

The role of the support is to bolster or protect their team mates, but this puts them at the mercy of them not being garbage. No matter how hard you support you can only bring the horse to water, you can't drink the water for the horse, otherwise you defeat the purpose of the role which makes it interesting in the first place.

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This is fine, in the vacuum of a team fight, but there is more to LoL than team fights.

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Here's a thought experiment, how about supports are buffed in their ability to take and hold objectives: late game wave clearing, split pushing, turrets, warding. What if the support was transformed to a Strategist or Leader that directs the flow of the team, they just don't hold the cannons. When a role is declining the focus is to buff battle efficiency as if it's the only area that exists in the game.

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Late Game Waveclear & Split pushing item 3302 item 3097 item 3401 There's already support items that execute minions, why not take it a step further and have it clear multiple minions the more it is upgraded.

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Turrets Ziggs Has the ability to topple structures easy, but so could anyone if more of their abilities worked on turrets. Those somebodies should be traditional supports. Alistar could ram Turrets the same way Rift Herald does, exchanging HP for objective damage drawing Turret aggro.

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Wards item 2049 item 2045 item 3363 Add additional effects to these bland items, like effects that happen when they're placed, discovered or destroyed. Wards that act like flower bombs when destroyed, maybe even do damage, turn wards into traps; taunt ward, slow ward, bomb ward, smite ward, teleport ward, turret ward, minion wards. How about wards that remove minion or tower vision, how about wards that convert enemy minions. Some of these already exist in rotating game modes. Offense / Defense / Recon / Boons

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Take these thought experiments with a grain of salt, the main idea is that there are alternate avenues to buffing roles than simply combat. In the spirit of science any dissent will be sent to jail or Florida.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Heimerdinger_0.jpg

Edit:

Expanding on Support Waveclear

https://i.gyazo.com/afc93ada691ef61d84f9e55552f67c3c.png

Deters roles exploiting by only being effective mid-late and uses a support only build path. Other roles will be able to wave clear with their standard builds by this time anyway which makes it irrelevant for exploitation by then.

25 Comments

ChaddyFantome2 votes

Here's a thought experiment, how about supports are buffed in their ability to take and hold objectives: late game wave clearing, split pushing, turrets, warding.

You can't do that. one of the most consistent ways riot and the playerbase has stated was the best way to keep supports from going into solo lanes and being OP was to not let them have wave clear.

Literally the only reason Sona isn't played mid is because her wave clear is abysmal. Her damage when building AP is actually disgusting otherwise. Lulu, Morganna and Soraka had their waveclear gutted for this very reason.

What if the support was transformed to a Strategist or Leader that directs the flow of the team,

I don't think it needs to be "transformed" into this. I have always looked at the role as just that; Strategists/Tacticians.

Add additional effects to these bland items, like effects that happen when they're placed, discovered or destroyed. Wards that act like flower bombs when destroyed, maybe even do damage, turn wards into traps; taunt ward, slow ward, bomb ward, smite ward, teleport ward, turret ward, minion wards. How about wards that remove minion or tower vision, how about wards that convert enemy minions.

Again, this would make it way to abusable on junglers for example.

The core issue with why supports always have to be kept "weak" is because of the issue of other laners abusing their stuff. Because by its very nature, the support role exists to have a player try to be as useful as possible with the least available gold. So if you make support options too strong, they end up being way too gold efficient and thus used and abused by other positions.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

You can't do that. one of the most consistent ways riot and the playerbase has stated was the best way to keep supports from going into solo lanes and being OP was to not let them have wave clear.

How about bad damage + squishy? Without good base damage or lots of safety, their solo-laning would be super tough.

Literally the only reason Sona isn't played mid is because her wave clear is abysmal. Her damage when building AP is actually disgusting otherwise. Lulu, Morganna and Soraka had their waveclear gutted for this very reason.

But... Morg is played mid...

I don't think it needs to be "transformed" into this. I have always looked at the role as just that; Strategists/Tacticians.

Again, this would make it way to abusable on junglers for example.

Fine, what if it's put on the combined Sightstone items (or Ruby Sightstone), with a cost increase if necessary?

ChaddyFantome2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9LOydzmO,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-05-13T22:10:47.893+0000)

How about bad damage + squishy? Without good base damage or lots of safety, their solo-laning would be super tough.

Can't do that either. Safety is literally the point of Enchanters. You are basically asking to turn them into mages at that point, at which point they will just be played mid anyway.

But... Morg is played mid...

Morg hasn't predominantly been a midlaner for 3 seasons, bro.

Fine, what if it's put on the combined Sightstone items (or Ruby Sightstone), with a cost increase if necessary?

Mid and toplaners are now getting it.

Teemo and Shaco get it every game.

An entire hard CC for such a cheep price every time u place a ward? I dont think that would even be balanced on supports let alone keeping it off of other laners.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

Can't do that either. Safety is literally the point of Enchanters. You are basically asking to turn them into mages at that point, at which point they will just be played mid anyway.

Enchanters are meant to keep an ally safe, not themselves. The lower range ones would rather stay behind their carry and only go up for important CC'ing skills, healing/shielding/buffing. For example, Nami. Q is too unreliable against assassin mids/bruiser tops, autos don't hurt enough, W doesn't do enough damage to bully. Doran's shield would probably completely negate her ranged advantage top lane, and all in all, she's far too squishy to face off against mages.

Alright, what if the waveclear was low range, with a channel time? Or even a ~90 second cooldown? The first would make them super vulnerable unless an ally was looking out for them like in bot lane, and the second would keep it from being reliable.

Morg hasn't predominantly been a midlaner for 3 seasons, bro.

She still can, and W waveclears plenty well (although not amazing)

Mid and toplaners are now getting it. Teemo and Shaco get it every game.

An entire hard CC for such a cheep price every time u place a ward? I dont think that would even be balanced on supports let alone keeping it off of other laners.

I said Ruby Sightstone. If they're paying 1600g for it, well... guess I could see Kindred and Ivern abusing it, but otherwise...

And it doesn't have to be hard CC. It could be a mere slow, or even vision denial (which to be is an amazing concept, although I'm not sure how well it'd work. That'd be cool to experiment with on the PBE though.)

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9LOydzmO,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T01:03:35.668+0000)

Enchanters are meant to keep an ally safe, not themselves.

Enchanters are meant to enable protect the team and disable enemies. They are part of the team. the idea that they themselves should not be able to protect themselves sis quite frankly idiotic.

The lower range ones would rather stay behind their carry and only go up for important CC'ing skills, healing/shielding/buffing.

The only enchanters that are like this are Soraka and janna.

If you are doing this with Nami Lulu or Karma, you are doing it wrong.

For example, Nami. Q is too unreliable against assassin mids/bruiser tops, autos don't hurt enough, W doesn't do enough damage to bully.

W is literally a free trade as it heals you as it deals damage.

It is almost always in Nami's best interest to look for opportunities to trade and use W to come out ahead with them, not sit behind and use it as a shittier Soraka W.

Doran's shield would probably completely negate her ranged advantage top lane,

Shit argument. This applies to all ranged champions. To claim this is to claim Dorans shield negates the ranged advantage as a whole, which it doesn't.

and all in all, she's far too squishy to face off against mages.

This is literally a non argument. She has sustain in her kit and isn't much squishier than other caster champions. You ar grasping for straws here.

Literally the only thing keeping Nami from being a powerful mid lane pick is her Wave clear. Her Q is her onyl AoE spell but doesn't deal enough damage to clear waves by herself and her W doesnt work on minions, leaving only her E.

Her E makes for incredibly powerful trades even at level 1 and makes it it incredibly easy to land her Q, as does her ultimate , making for a powerful bust combo. And as stated before, W allows her to trade for free, dealing damage while healing herself, winning virtually all trades.

trust me, i used to play Nami mid in ranked in lower elo. If Nami had wave clear, she would be broken.

Alright, what if the waveclear was low range, with a channel time? Or even a ~90 second cooldown? The first would make them super vulnerable unless an ally was looking out for them like in bot lane, and the second would keep it from being reliable.

At that point, i'f have to ask why you are even bothering. Speaking of which, you never answered my question as to why you seem to think wave clear of all thing is the answer or the thing that is needed let alone why you seem so fixated on wave clear specifically and hell bent on trying to give it to them regardless of being told it is the one thing keeping supports in check as a weakness?

She still can, and W waveclears plenty well (although not amazing)

Saying she still can is like saying Malzahar still can mid. They are both champions that have been nerfed in the midlane severely in response to them begin played support, to the point where playing them mid is simply suboptimal.

Her W only clears waves after 3-4 W via the execute dmg.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Enchanters are meant to enable protect the team and disable enemies. They are part of the team. the idea that they themselves should not be able to protect themselves sis quite frankly idiotic.

Many of their abilities work far better in conjunction with allies than themselves. For example, Nami E is far better on an ally because it means she doesn't have to kite and slow herself down. Nami Q is a lot better if they aren't completely 100% focused on her. Lulu Polymorph is a lot more effective if she has a teammate to kill her target while they're polymorphed, especially if she's building support items over AP/

The only enchanters that are like this are Soraka and janna.

If you are doing this with Nami Lulu or Karma, you are doing it wrong.

Nami only goes up for a Q, otherwise stays back to W and E her allies (W bounces, so she doesn't need to go up). Karma is an exception, as she is also a very viable mid laner. Lulu is only gonna go up to Q and polymorph (and E in lane, but otherwise it's better used on her carry).

W is literally a free trade as it heals you as it deals damage.

Not enough.

It is almost always in Nami's best interest to look for opportunities to trade and use W to come out ahead with them, not sit behind and use it as a shittier Soraka W.

Um, huh? Not in a fucking teamfight! Besides, it bounces off her teammates, so she doesn't even need to go up.

Shit argument. This applies to all ranged champions. To claim this is to claim Dorans shield negates the ranged advantage as a whole, which it doesn't.

Nami has very low base AD and a slow auto attack animation.

This is literally a non argument. She has sustain in her kit and isn't much squishier than other caster champions. You ar grasping for straws here.

She has very bad mana sustain, and is incredibly squishy compared to other casters.

Literally the only thing keeping Nami from being a powerful mid lane pick is her Wave clear. Her Q is her onyl AoE spell but doesn't deal enough damage to clear waves by herself and her W doesnt work on minions, leaving only her E. Her E makes for incredibly powerful trades even at level 1 and makes it it incredibly easy to land her Q, as does her ultimate , making for a powerful bust combo.

As if your opponent won't Q+W+E+R and delete you before that happens. Hell, they'd get off 2 abilities during your auto attack animation (it's that slow), and then the other 2 as your Q is in the air.

And as stated before, W allows her to trade for free, dealing damage while healing herself, winning virtually all trades.

It honestly doesn't do enough damage or heal enough, and it's mana cost is insane.

trust me, i used to play Nami mid in ranked in lower elo. If Nami had wave clear, she would be broken.

At that point, i'f have to ask why you are even bothering. Speaking of which, you never answered my question as to why you seem to think wave clear of all thing is the answer or the thing that is needed let alone why you seem so fixated on wave clear specifically and hell bent on trying to give it to them regardless of being told it is the one thing keeping supports in check as a weakness?

Lulu has waveclear (Q and autos). Karma has waveclear (Q) Morgana has waveclear (W) Zilean has waveclear (Q)

I don't believe any of them have been overpowered, besides Lulu.

Saying she still can is like saying Malzahar still can mid. They are both champions that have been nerfed in the midlane severely in response to them begin played support, to the point where playing them mid is simply suboptimal.

Her W only clears waves after 3-4 W via the execute dmg.

Yeah, well Morg maxes W, and it's not like your opponent is gonna be spamming spells to waveclear from lvl 1...

Besides, you haven't even talked about my suggestion to give the waveclear item a ~90 second cooldown or require a channel (thus leaving them super vulnerable).

Brascus1 votes

What you could do then is spread the additional minion executes over multiple support items, this should delay them from exploiting it during laning phase, which is what it is not intended for.

Let's say we put an execute passive on all gold items: item 3302 item 3301 item 3098 The execute range scales with level, really weak early and much stronger around level 12-15, with additional boosts while upgrading the item

Then take items like: item 3190 item 2049 item 3504
Add passive: when a minion is executed it explodes dealing x% of its max health as damage to nearby minions

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This should ensure that the wave clear is on par with other roles mid-late game and no sooner, you will also need to buy 2 support items to use it. Non-supports should have no need to build in such a way, that their current build path doesn't already provide.

Ralanr2 votes

What's to stop midlane mages from building item 3092 or whatever and getting a free item bound waveclear mid to late so they don't waste their abilities?

Brascus1 votes

They have to build item 3098 + any item 3190 item 2049 item 3504 to do that. Mages already have blue buff and great clear by mid-late, I don't think this would be a problem.

It's out of their build path, and doesn't solve problems their build path already solves. Let's also not forget the stats they'd lose doing this, Mages already complain about being ap starved in their choices, building support items to waveclear seems a bit of a stretch.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Based on you descriptor, the frostqueen line would provide wave clear, and getting other support items would simply boost that wave clear.

I fail to understand why you think giving them waveclear of all things is what the support role needs. Seems more like a particular fixation on your end as opposed to having any real thought out idea of how this helps the role, to be frank.

Brascus1 votes

Gold item is the execute, support item is the waveclear that acts based on the condition of having a minion execute.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Gold item is the execute, support item is the waveclear that acts based on the condition of having a minion execute.

mid and top laner would all get it the gold gen items without question, and be able to farm and clear waves with ease with only 1 ability at a cheap price instead of investing in actual ap or sunfire cape.' the "added wave clear from other supp items" is compeltley redundant when you have free execute on all minions.

Brascus1 votes

Have you used relic shield before? It doesn't apply to ability damage only autos, allowing supports to last hit more easily.

Top and mid are going to rush 2 support items so they can wave clear?

Top/Mid can wave clear easy with their first core item, and you think they're going to trade in their stats and buildpath for hp and a shield? Most top laners especially juggs have trash base stats and really need 1 proper defense + offense core item to function.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Have you used relic shield before? It doesn't apply to ability damage only autos, allowing supports to last hit more easily.

Relic shield requires an near by ally, only executes on melee and works on a charge system, not all auto attacks. It isn't; a wave clear item. The intended purpose is to help Melee supports have something to actually do in lane when they aren't just engaging, as well as healing their lane partner last hit under tower while providing sustain.

Also, the charges procs on all minion kills.

Extending this to every minion in the game universally is a stupid idea and reacks of not even having had an increment of thought put into it. its just a half baked idea you didn't think trhough.

Top and mid are going to rush 2 support items so they can wave clear?

They wont need 2 items because the execute is only on 1 of them.

Brascus1 votes

For Junglers exploiting the new wards can you explain how, or is this the same fear of change like the introduction of plants?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Nice ad hominem. For the record, i was pro plants since day 1.

Brascus1 votes

Still no explanation.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Do i really need to repeat myself?

Junglers would use it to ass fuck people in jungle invades and ganks

Brascus1 votes

I asked you to explain yourself, not repeat yourself.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

What you could do then is spread the additional minion executes over multiple support items, this should delay them from exploiting it during laning phase, which is what it is not intended for.

Let's say we put an execute passive on all gold items: item 3302 item 3301 item 3098 The execute range scales with level, really weak early and much stronger around level 12-15, with additional boosts while upgrading the item

Then they would just add the component to their inventory at virtually no cost at around lvl 12 and it would warp those lanes.

Then take items like: item 3190 item 2049 item 3504
Add passive: when a minion is executed it explodes dealing x% of its max health as damage to nearby minions

I don't get why you seem so adamant on trying to give supports splitpushing power of all things, but i digress. Then you end up warping the support position itself, as split push champions start infesting the role since they can get by doing their job on a much cheaper budget without sacrificing an autonomous lane or position.

This should ensure that the wave clear is on par with other roles mid-late game and no sooner, you will also need to buy 2 support items to use it. Non-supports should have no need to build in such a way, that their current build path doesn't already provide.

Supports shouldn't have the same wave clear as other roles mid to late game to begin with. Not unless they are specifically building damage for said waveclear anyway, while still having all the utility their kits have and their items provide.

These changes would simply make the support position above the curve of other positions for seemly no reason, as opposed to fixing the actual problems with the position.

Brascus1 votes

So you consider relic shield in its current state as wave clear?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Relic shield only works based on a given number of procs and requires an ally be next to you. it also only executes if you are melee.

Giving that shit on all minions and to everything under the sun is a stupid idea.

Brascus1 votes

Supports being able to waveclear without buffing combat ability is broken?

They can be useful besides being a meat shield or peel bot is unacceptable?

Elaborate, please.

TheGreatBardini1 votes

I agree, especially with Relic Shield it can be hard to get your passive off out of laning phase. At that point, either the ADC you're with has Hurricane and clears the wave before you can do anything or it's a mage like Ryze or Veigar that does the same thing. I don't really know how you could fix it, but it's frustrating to have lower income because your teammates are impatient.

Brascus1 votes

The idea was for later in the game when laning has finished, there's all these additional waves people leave unattended and supports can't do much about it.

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