Why do champions who rely on landing skillshots have access to items with constant slows?

Melledoneus·Oct 25, 2016·11 votes·935 views

and with are just impossible to run away from once they hit you once. Cass doesn't even need to hit you with poison, she can just use a targeted spell and boom, you're melting.

Similarly, is abusing and getting free slows on each Q and auto. Come on, really? It's not as if he was hard enough to reach, anyway.

In my opinion only bruisers and tanks should have access to powerful slows because their job is to debilitate enemies for their carries. Not the other way around.

#EDIT: People seem to be misunderstanding the message here. I mean that champions that are rewarded for landing their skill shots are not really having to worry about that if they can just cast another spell for the Rylai's slow. Rylai's was always a defensive item, but now it's become a must-buy for most mages because of how much AP and utility it provides.

46 Comments

MarshbouyOct 25, 20165 votes

item 3022 hello darkness my old friend.

GULAG 4 UOct 25, 20161 votes

Seriously why does an item that forces you to all in the user has decent combat power?

MohawkBirdOct 25, 20161 votes

[deleted]

GULAG 4 UOct 25, 20161 votes

Either get permaslowed and enjoy free damage or go ham and try to kill them.

MelledoneusOct 25, 20162 votes

Right, forgot about that little shit Gnar abusing this item meant for champions who can't stick to their enemies, like Shen and ... well, shit I'm at a loss there lol.

Tychusfindlay919Oct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Right, forgot about that little shit abusing this item meant for champions who can't stick to their enemies, like and ... well, shit I'm at a loss there lol.

Gnar doesnt even need to abuse mallet to be a shitstain. The idea of a ranged bruiser with massive kiting tools is moronic in and of itself. Nevermind the ability to transform into a juggernaut with vanguard-level initiation and cc.

SwiftKitten88Oct 25, 20164 votes

.... why do champion who don't even need to land a skillshot and can just auto you get access to constant slows item 3022 item 3025 ?

seesh.. at least with item 3116 you need to land a SKILLSHOT.

and anyways.. i have say this countless times..

item 3116 isnt an issue becuase it slows.. its an issue becuase certain champs can keep you PERMANENTLY slowed.

just give the item a debuff on the target's hit by it that says they cant be slowed by item 3116 for another 3-5 second or so and it would be fine..

Golden Tager XOct 25, 20163 votes

Cassiopeia yes, skillshot, Azir I can see what you mean Vladimir completely Swain , there are no Malzahar point and clicks, insane aoe, Kennen auto targeted, Ahri or impossible to miss cones Rumble that could possibly proc Fiddlesticks the slow Viktor on rylai's, oh wait

MunchCrunchLunchOct 25, 20161 votes

umm. autos have less range than skill shots.

TequilaZombieOct 25, 20161 votes

Giving it a window is not the best solution, as it would ruin the item for champions who are meant to use it and have been calanced around it (battle mages). It would require a complete overhaul of those champions.

A simpler and just as effective solution would be to give the item stats meant for said champions, like the FM treatment: more hp, less damage.

This second solution would need a new item to be created or a current item to be upped to 100 AP, as mages would lack another big ticket AP item, but this would be easier to fix than rebalancing a whole class.

feryvunnyOct 25, 20163 votes

Here's a solution: dodge skill shots....?

If it was truly as imbalanced as you say riot would have addressed it. But obviously its not and there are tradeoffs you are either disregarding or underestimating.

As cliche as it sounds: Git. Gud.

MelledoneusOct 25, 20164 votes

Hold up, let me dodge that Cass E.

feryvunnyOct 25, 20161 votes

if you put yourself in a position that lets Cass use her tools to rekt you, then you deserve it and/or don't know how to play against her well enough lol...

MelledoneusOct 25, 20161 votes

I'm sorry that I wanted to play a mid-range mage and thus put myself in a position to use her tools.

My bad. I'll just play champions that are safer so as to avoid the potential Cassiopeia pick in blind pick.

feryvunnyOct 25, 20161 votes

Sorry let me rephrase, when I said "put yourself in a position" i meant your playmaking choices, not your literal position relative to cass. In other words, learn to play vs cass or stop qq-ing lol you act like cass with rylais is something new

MelledoneusOct 25, 20161 votes

Ok, then let's talk about another example to prove Rylai's is problematic.

Syndra. She can W you for a massive slow, with a huge area of landing. Now she gets to permaslow you with Q's unless you have blinks to dodge every single one.

feryvunnyOct 25, 20161 votes

In what world do you live in where you just sit there and let a Syndra perma-slow you without punishment. All this theoretical stuff just goes back to my initial point: learn to play against (x) champ or take the beating. Simple as that :/

MelledoneusOct 25, 20162 votes

Syndra's counterplay is dodge her spheres. Rylai's removes that counterplay.

That perma-slow could also be what's preventing a melee champion from punishing her back. You haven't had the misfortune of playing against it, it seems, so you wouldn't understand.

SwiftKitten88Oct 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Syndra's counterplay is dodge her spheres. Rylai's removes that counterplay.

That perma-slow could also be what's preventing a melee champion from punishing her back. You haven't had the misfortune of playing against it, it seems, so you wouldn't understand.

... and you are not slowed until you are hit by one? so if you dodged it in the first place you wouldn't be slowed?

syndra already has a slow on her w... she has a stun on her E if she lines it up properly... the only thing rylias adds to her "CC" is a slow on her "Q". and as short as that cooldown is.. she cant permaslow you with it.

so Syndra isn't a champ that is OP with item 3116 ....

MelledoneusOct 25, 20161 votes

We can argue about this all day, so for the sake of the discussion let me bring up a better example: Malzahar

By building Rylai's Malzahar can essentially guarantee his voidlings will shred down his target, unless they cross a wall with a dash or a blink, or find a way besides walking or short-dashing to escape. You cannot even go near him in lane once he gets Rylai's, because it could spell death. Malzahar loses almost all semblance of counterplay when he can simply refresh his E over and over with Q and E while his opponent is basically perma-slowed. I have played it myself and it is disgusting.

feryvunnyOct 25, 20161 votes

That is an issue that came up because of Malz's rework. So then you are left at the point of adjusting Malz (again) or changing a major item that can affect tons of other champions instead.

Besides, you want to play your favorite meelee champs and be able to get in an immobile mage's face. How is this consequently fair for the immobile mage? Rylais gives these champs some counterplay to ultra tanky but can still kill you bruiser types. I think its fair as it forces brute champs to be a little more strategic while making the mage choose between kiting utility and giving up others, e.g. Zhonyas, Abyssal, CDR, or raw damage

And again, Malz with Rylais is not new. So I don't know why you're bringing this up now as if it suddenly became meta to build Rylais on every mage. Other people played it, learned to counterplay it, and so can you buddy. Stop acting like you are some prophet that discovered "Rylais perma slow exists! OP!"

MelledoneusOct 25, 20161 votes

The problem is that champions who HAVE to rely on skillshots are getting free shots because of the slow from Rylai's. I'm fine with having a slow for defensive reasons, for example to keep that pesky Udyr off of you, but when it gets to the point where the item is used to oppress enemy champions for being in your range... it's too much.

I'd like Rylai's to become a niche item again. It's just healthier that way.

feryvunnyOct 25, 20161 votes

That's the idea though isn't it? To help peel, land abilities, counter insanely strong meelee champs (when they get in your face) in-lane or otherwise?

The main issue that should be discussed are the other stats that are paired with it. 100 AP and 400 HP and you get that useful utility. A possible solution would be to tone down the AP a little, give it the Zhonyas treatment, but then that makes mages weaker across the board. Either way, not my job to figure this out anyway lol

In the end I don't mind if it becomes niche again. I'd still get it for the slow. I just don't think its as unhealthy as it's blown up to be. Mind numbingly annoying for sure, but OP idk

MelledoneusOct 25, 20161 votes

A main weakness of most immobile mages is that they are susceptible to being caught out. Rylai's slow can curb this, which I'm fine with. However, when we see the newly resurfacing AP MF use her already strong AoE slow with Rylai's to basically plummet movement speed for a long time, or when Kennen is chasing you and able to get an ult on you despite you having two mobility spells burned because he slowed you for 1.5 seconds...

Bottom line is that most champions who were made to be hit-or-none chanpions are now having their weaknesses covered by an item that also gives them 30 more AP than Zhonya's.

feryvunnyOct 25, 20161 votes

On AP MF it just seems crazy because on paper it all works, and we've seen it on worlds so everyone is trying to hop the band wagon. But competitive=/=solo que and that's already evident with MF's winrate plummitting. IMO, if the enemy team has an MF, you should be aware of her AOE potential at all times, AP or AD. Yeah, Rylais makes that a little harder, but no where near impossible. Disengage and she is now negligible for like 7s before her E comes up again. Even then a proper frontline can eat her E anyway unless she's super fed and has Liandrys or something.

On Kennen, yeah that is some feelsbad stuff. If a Kennen were to catch you after you blew 2 mobility spells, he must've had E speed boost, a decent range on you, and protobelt. Both parties flashes as well. From Kennen's perspective, he has to blow all of that just to get his ult off and hope his team follows up, otherwise he's just a squishy amumu. Rylais lets him do what he needs to do without becoming a simple kamikaze and making flash an absolute. In the end, I think the problem lies more with Kennen's old kit then Rylai's being too unhealthy.

I dunno, I guess we can both do this all day. You have your view and I respect it, and ultimately I have my own.

GULAG 4 UOct 25, 20161 votes

Sorry dude I wanted to play kha'zix jungle so outside laning phase I get my ass perma slowed for trying to kill someone.

feryvunnyOct 27, 20161 votes

If the enemy has enough time to react and to perma-slow you, then you aren't playing k6 correctly. You either messed up a 1 shot opportunity or straight up positioned yourself badly and didn't have the right mechanics.

His entire kit revolves around waiting just for the right moment to ambush a mispositioned target and 1 shot them on top of having R-stealth jukes :|

GULAG 4 UOct 27, 20161 votes

Lol You're talking like it's possible to cleanly oneshot someone unless you're 5/0 and the enemy might have flash too and the unevolved E's range isn't that much neither.

feryvunnyOct 27, 20161 votes

Of course it isn't always clean because of fluctuating player skill levels and many other factors.

But then again, you talk as if the moment a mage gets Rylais there is 100% no counterplay or chance you can do anything as k6 because of "perma-slows" lol see the hypocrisy?

GULAG 4 UOct 27, 20161 votes

Where did you see I said there was nothing that could be done? I said permaslowed. Not "no counterplay".

feryvunnyOct 27, 20161 votes

Then why are you complaning? If there is counterplay, then fucking do it? There is an advantage your enemy has, but there is counterplay available for you. What the fuck else do you want? You just made this entire argument moot lol...

GULAG 4 UOct 27, 20161 votes

maybe because there is no counterplay as an immobile character?

DrCyanideOct 25, 20162 votes

Hold up, let me re-read that title

Why do champions who rely on landing skillshots have access to items with constant slows?

MelledoneusOct 25, 20161 votes

Cassiopeia is supposed to rely on landing her poison blast, her ult, or her miasma to start the twin fang spam.

What we get instead is a one-sided battle because she used Rylai's twin fang to land her poison.

feryvunnyOct 25, 20163 votes

His point is that you titled the thread to be about skillshots, but turned it into a QQ cass op thread lol

MelledoneusOct 25, 20161 votes

Well, I provided another example to boot. Did you need more examples to prove that this isn't a complaint about one champion?

feryvunnyOct 25, 20162 votes

No cuz frankly I don't care anymore lol

MelledoneusOct 25, 20161 votes

Then please leave since you don't care for much except poo-pooing my argument.

AnonagonOct 25, 20162 votes

Itemization into permanent slows is something that shouldn't be acceptable for any character. Rylais and Frozen Mallet don't belong in the game, and while Iceborn is generally more acceptable because of the requirement to both cast a spell and attack, its internal cooldown, and its lack of damage stats, Ezreal's specific abuse of the item is cancer.

GULAG 4 UOct 25, 20162 votes

Rilais needs a cool down between slows tbh. It's fun to perma slow someone but it's cancerous Af to play against.

WinTheWarOnPantsOct 25, 20161 votes

no, it's problem is that it has too much dmg. 100 AP is too much for the rest of it's stats and makes it an item that should be in pretty much every AP champs build. before, you bought it because you needed the utility and sacrifice dmg to get it. now there really is no downside too buying it. frankly i'm quite tired of buying it regardless of the circumstances, but it goes so well with Eve that i really can't afford not too.

XinCrinOct 25, 20161 votes

These items need desperate changes: item 3116 item 3022 and this item needs a minor change: item 3025

FioraWillCarryOct 25, 20161 votes

While Rylais is strong it provides no mana or CDR and it's no where near the powerspike that Void, Rabadan or even Ludens is. I love Rylais, then again I'm a filty Rylais abuser(I main Kayle), so I'm biased.

Exta5yOct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

and with are just impossible to run away from once they hit you once. Cass doesn't even need to hit you with poison, she can just use a targeted spell and boom, you're melting.

Similarly, is abusing and getting free slows on each Q and auto. Come on, really? It's not as if he was hard enough to reach, anyway.

In my opinion only bruisers and tanks should have access to powerful slows because their job is to debilitate enemies for their carries. Not the other way around.

u mad u cant land a skill shot. l2p get gut

AdeBugOct 27, 20161 votes

item 3092