How do you know a champion is underpowered?

Darkinlegend·Apr 29, 2016·4 votes·1,277 views

Lets look at this logically?

Does anyone ever complain about Jax being under powered, weak? Or Fiora? How about Garen? Darius? Diana?

No. Because they are not.

The fact that some champions are complained about by many people as being under powered or too weak can not be mass delusion. It wouldn't be a thing that is brought up if it wasn't some truth to that.

That is why you will never seem posts from people complaining about Jax needing a buff...because there is nothing true about that, you will never see anyone do it, and if you do, it will be 1 crazy isolated incident.

So as an Aatrox main, when I see many MANY other posts from people insisting he does need a change and currently is rather weak, it is totally wrong for Meddler to come along and say they think he is in a good spot. Based on what?

And not just Aatrox. The same is true for many other champions. It really does seem like Riot has their pet favorite champions and the hell with the ones they don't like.

56 Comments

KVbqbFsC8eApr 29, 20164 votes

Riot absolutely "plays favorite" with champions, but they do so based on popularity. Since Aatrox isn't and hasn't been a popular pick in forever, Riot simply does not care about him.

Critmaster GarenApr 29, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-04-29T06:24:29.330+0000)

Riot absolutely "plays favorite" with champions, but they do so based on popularity. Since Aatrox isn't and hasn't been a popular pick in forever, Riot simply does not care about him.

which leads to a vicious cycle. hes unpopular and boring so he doesnt get any attention. since he doesnt get attention, he remains unpopular and boring.

ZëzApr 29, 20161 votes

No champion is allowed to suck. I main Darius and Trundle, they are not "weak". If a champion has less than a 50% winrate you can consider them "weak" or hard to play. Lee Sin for instance.

DarkinlegendApr 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wood Yordle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-29T05:23:19.586+0000)

No champion is allowed to suck. I main Darius and Trundle, they are not "weak". If a champion has less than a 50% winrate you can consider them "weak" or hard to play. Lee Sin for instance.

At any given time in a game, you can find yourselves stomping on players with any champion. But at the higher ranks , you start seeing certain champions less and less, because against good players, they don't hold up. Like Aatrox, who is rarely seen at high ranks

ZëzApr 29, 20161 votes

I'm currently in D5, I see Mordekaiser mains, Aatrox mains, its nothing new, people play off meta stuff all the time. At one time Aatrox was banned in the LCS. It just has to be the meta for it to be worthy played in higher elo.

DarkinlegendApr 29, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wood Yordle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-29T05:28:13.705+0000)

I'm currently in D5, I see Mordekaiser mains, Aatrox mains, its nothing new, people play off meta stuff all the time. At one time Aatrox was banned in the LCS. It just has to be the meta for it to be worthy played in higher elo.

Please. He was in 247 games last week in Diamond. Compared to the 3k, 4k, 5k, and 6k games the middle of the pack and the most popular champs were in, that is insanely small.

Vicarious117Apr 29, 20161 votes

You do realize his LCS bans were back before his very first nerfs no more then a couple months after his original release.... right?

The only other time he got ONE single ban was just for the sole reason of banning Freddie out of his whole champ pool, since he's the only LCS player who played Aatrox, which he also doesn't do anymore either.

The fact of the matter is that Aatrox in his current state will NEVER be in the meta, because if his playstyle ever jumps back up to the fore front there are 4-5 other champs waiting along side him who do everything he does but better. Now maybe if they hadn't nerfed his passive into the gutter way back when he was ban worthy in the LCS then he might have some hope in the future, but in his current state it will not happen.

QuephaApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You do realize his LCS bans were back before his very first nerfs no more then a couple months after his original release.... right?

The only other time he got ONE single ban was just for the sole reason of banning Freddie out of his whole champ pool, since he's the only LCS player who played Aatrox, which he also doesn't do anymore either.

The fact of the matter is that Aatrox in his current state will NEVER be in the meta, because if his playstyle ever jumps back up to the fore front there are 4-5 other champs waiting along side him who do everything he does but better. Now maybe if they hadn't nerfed his passive into the gutter way back when he was ban worthy in the LCS then he might have some hope in the future, but in his current state it will not happen.

Those 4-5 other champs also have a problem and the 2-3 behind Aatrox in line also have a problem The entire class has a problem Aatrox is not special.

Vicarious117Apr 29, 20161 votes

False, most other champions with similar playstyles only have problems pertaining to the fact that their playstyle is not in the meta thus doesn't perform as well.

Aatrox has problems that puts him at the bottom of the barrel when compared to everyone else of similar playstyles.

I mean he's supposed to play similar to Olaf but has to build more akin to Master Yi..... it's not very effective in most popular match ups which is why he has such an abysmal showing in mid-high ELO.

QuephaApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

False, most other champions with similar playstyles only have problems pertaining to the fact that their playstyle is not in the meta thus doesn't perform as well.

Aatrox has problems that puts him at the bottom of the barrel when compared to everyone else of similar playstyles.

I mean he's supposed to play similar to Olaf but has to build more akin to Master Yi..... it's not very effective in most popular match ups which is why he has such an abysmal showing in mid-high ELO.

Aatrox has a kit much more similar to Irelia and he plays exactly like Irelia. Gapclose, cc, stat check into success or failure state. Such is the state of all divers.

Vicarious117Apr 29, 20161 votes

Well yes, exactly...... That's every Aatrox players' point, she (and others) do exactly what Aatrox does but either just flat out better or they have more in their kit to make them more versatile champions.

I mean just look at everything he does....... he jumps in to catch a target out and try and burst it down with help from his team... but then why not just take Vi? Ok he has a ridiculous amount of sustain when hitting people a lot.... but then why not just take Irelia? Fine he has a good ultimate for dueling other champions.... buuuuut then why not just play an actual dueling champ like Fiora? OK OK OK then he still has his passive that let's him revive!!!!...... ok yeah that is pretty unique in that it can't be stopped like Anivia or Zac.... but that alone is not enough to make him relevant.

These facts are painfully obvious to almost every Aatrox player yet for some reason there are people who rarely if ever even run into him in game who want to argue that he's fine where he is..... I really don't get it, are you people just playing the devil's advocate for the sake of being a fucking devil's advocate? Or you just seriously this oblivious to him and his current state? There's a fucking reason he's constantly joked about for being weak.... cause he fucking is!

QuephaApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well yes, exactly...... That's every Aatrox players' point, she (and others) do exactly what Aatrox does but either just flat out better or they have more in their kit to make them more versatile champions.

I mean just look at everything he does....... he jumps in to catch a target out and try and burst it down with help from his team... but then why not just take Vi? Ok he has a ridiculous amount of sustain when hitting people a lot.... but then why not just take Irelia? Fine he has a good ultimate for dueling other champions.... buuuuut then why not just play an actual dueling champ like Fiora? OK OK OK then he still has his passive that let's him revive!!!!...... ok yeah that is pretty unique in that it can't be stopped like Anivia or Zac.... but that alone is not enough to make him relevant.

These facts are painfully obvious to almost every Aatrox player yet for some reason there are people who rarely if ever even run into him in game who want to argue that he's fine where he is..... I really don't get it, are you people just playing the devil's advocate for the sake of being a fucking devil's advocate? Or you just seriously this oblivious to him and his current state? There's a fucking reason he's constantly joked about for being weak.... cause he fucking is!

It's a two-way street. When you're looking to play any of those other champions you also ask the question "well why don't I just play Aatrox?" The answer is that you do play Aatrox when his numbers are better, and you play Vi or Irelia or Wukong or Xin Zhao or Shyvana or whatever when their numbers are better. The diver with the best numbers wins and everyone else just sucks. Right now Ekko wins and if you don't play Ekko you're playing a garbage diver.

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It's a two-way street. When you're looking to play any of those other champions you also ask the question "well why don't I just play Aatrox?" The answer is that you do play Aatrox when his numbers are better, and you play Vi or Irelia or Wukong or Xin Zhao or Shyvana or whatever when their numbers are better. The diver with the best numbers wins and everyone else just sucks. Right now Ekko wins and if you don't play Ekko you're playing a garbage diver.

Another issue is this. He is played so often. 1500 games compared to like 30k games with popular champions in Gold in a weak that those numbers don't mean anything. The few people that play Aatrox are most likely dedicated mains that win because of their skill and experience with him

QuephaApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Another issue is this. He is played so often. 1500 games compared to like 30k games with popular champions in Gold in a weak that those numbers don't mean anything. The few people that play Aatrox are most likely dedicated mains that win because of their skill and experience with him

http://www.lolking.net/champions/aatrox?chartType=performanceLoyalty&region=na&map=sr&queue=normal#statistics

nope. The midpoint for "# of games played" happens somewhere in the 6-10 games played range.

Vicarious117Apr 30, 20161 votes

Well you're basically right, again, but you seem to be missing the point you yourself are proving.....

You play which ever one of them has the best numbers, and ever since his very first nerf to his passive to limit his jungling ability... for some reason.... Aatrox has had the worst numbers and they have not gone up.

His winrate periodically spikes due to so few people actually playing him, those being the few who stick with him no matter his state of the time, but as it spikes and a couple more people pick him up they IMMEDIATELY drop and he's left with one of the lowest playrates again.

So yes you are right, but in being right you're again pointing out why Aatrox is in a bad state atm.

QuephaApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well you're basically right, again, but you seem to be missing the point you yourself are proving.....

You play which ever one of them has the best numbers, and ever since his very first nerf to his passive to limit his jungling ability... for some reason.... Aatrox has had the worst numbers and they have not gone up.

His winrate periodically spikes due to so few people actually playing him, those being the few who stick with him no matter his state of the time, but as it spikes and a couple more people pick him up they IMMEDIATELY drop and he's left with one of the lowest playrates again.

So yes you are right, but in being right you're again pointing out why Aatrox is in a bad state atm.

Aatrox is played by more newbies to the champion than most other champions. You can pull up loyalty charts on lolking and Aatrox skews heavily towards the lower numbers for games played.

My point was that the issue is not with Aatrox, it is with the diver class as a whole. A change to Aatrox would create as many problems as it solved in terms of game balance. A class update is what is called for.

Vicarious117May 1, 20161 votes

No that is a false assumption. Those charts don't specifically say if the champions are played by newbies or not, it only shows that even experienced Aatrox players don't tend to pick him very often. When a champion has as low a playrate as Aatrox does those charts become far less reliable.

And you may be right, divers are not in the healthiest of places right now, but basically everyone who plays Aatrox and asks Riot to help him out aren't asking to make him viable in every meta, we just want him to be at least comparable to the others of his class... right now if his class became the new meta he would still be far less played, that's just a fact.

QuephaApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The fact that some champions are complained about by many people as being under powered or too weak can not be mass delusion.

Yes it can. Lots of people still think certain tastes are associated with different areas of your tongue, it's very common for lots of people to believe the same untrue thing.

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes it can. Lots of people still think certain tastes are associated with different areas of your tongue, it's very common for lots of people to believe the same untrue thing.

Yet the fact of the matter is that the tongue is part of the taste experience. There is enough truth associated with the misconception that just because its shown that different areas of the tongue are not associated with different tastes, doesn't mean one should conclude "therefore, the tongue has nothing to with taste".

So you can try again. This time think before you post.

QuephaApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yet the fact of the matter is that the tongue is part of the taste experience. There is enough truth associated with the misconception that just because its shown that different areas of the tongue are not associated with different tastes, doesn't mean one should conclude "therefore, the tongue has nothing to with taste".

So you can try again. This time think before you post.

People taste things every day yet still believe something untrue about the taste experience. People play Aatrox every day yet still may believe something untrue about the experience of playing him. My metaphor is perfect.

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

People taste things every day yet still believe something untrue about the taste experience. People play Aatrox every day yet still may believe something untrue about the experience of playing him. My metaphor is perfect.

I think you need to sit down and think about this conversation. You clearly didn't understand any of it. Good day.

AlwaysByMySideApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lets look at this logically?

Does anyone ever complain about Jax being under powered, weak? Or Fiora? How about Garen? Darius? Diana?

No. Because they are not.

The fact that some champions are complained about by many people as being under powered or too weak can not be mass delusion. It wouldn't be a thing that is brought up if it wasn't some truth to that.

That is why you will never seem posts from people complaining about Jax needing a buff...because there is nothing true about that, you will never see anyone do it, and if you do, it will be 1 crazy isolated incident.

So as an Aatrox main, when I see many MANY other posts from people insisting he does need a change and currently is rather weak, it is totally wrong for Meddler to come along and say they think he is in a good spot. Based on what?

And not just Aatrox. The same is true for many other champions. It really does seem like Riot has their pet favorite champions and the hell with the ones they don't like.

Nice appeal to majority nerd. You might want to take a logic 101 course.

Also, Fiora is underpowered. [slayer-jinx-catface]

DarkinlegendApr 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-04-29T06:58:35.280+0000)

Nice appeal to majority nerd. You might want to take a logic 101 course.

Also, Fiora is underpowered. [slayer-jinx-catface]

Oh, well since you say Fiora is underpowered it must be true. I retract my post. Thank you for showing me the errors of my ways.

DarkinlegendApr 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-04-29T06:58:35.280+0000)

Nice appeal to majority nerd. You might want to take a logic 101 course.

Also, Fiora is underpowered. [slayer-jinx-catface]

Also, if you arent going to explain what is wrong with my post, and basically just call me stupid in so many words, maybe you should piss off.

AlwaysByMySideApr 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Also, if you arent going to explain what is wrong with my post, and basically just call me stupid in so many words, maybe you should piss off.

I explained it very clearly.

The entirety of your reasoning is based on the premise that if more people complain about something, it must be true. This is a logical fallacy.

Now, I'm not disagreeing that Aatrox is bad, he's "okay" at the best of times IMO and feels like complete shit to play because of all his power budget being placed into his busted-ass passive, making the rest of him feel weak. This makes him very feast or famine. This isn't helped by his kit being super generic, and not really cohesive. He's forced to build health to survive fights, which is fine, but then his health costs are percent health, so he's punished for building it. That's super lame.

He isn't bad because a whole bunch of people complain about him. If a large amount of people complaining about a champion being bad is what made them bad, then Sion (or basically any tank) would be bad, when in reality the people complaining about Sion being bad are simply stupid morons. Similarly, a considerable portion of the boards still complains about Lee Sin, saying he is overpowered. In reality, he isn't doing very well at all and the people who think he is OP are dumb downy dickheads.

Oh, and Fiora is underpowered.

http://champion.gg/champion/Fiora

People with over 125 games on her can barely squeak out a fifty percent win rate on average. She's statistically performing much worse than Aatrox.

People don't complain about her being weak because they know that a "Buff Fiora" thread would attract downvotes from the stupid subhuman sodomites that make up the boards.

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2016-04-29T20:09:48.765+0000)

I explained it very clearly.

The entirety of your reasoning is based on the premise that if more people complain about something, it must be true. This is a logical fallacy.

Now, I'm not disagreeing that Aatrox is bad, he's "okay" at the best of times IMO and feels like complete shit to play because of all his power budget being placed into his busted-ass passive, making the rest of him feel weak. This makes him very feast or famine. This isn't helped by his kit being super generic, and not really cohesive. He's forced to build health to survive fights, which is fine, but then his health costs are percent health, so he's punished for building it. That's super lame.

He isn't bad because a whole bunch of people complain about him. If a large amount of people complaining about a champion being bad is what made them bad, then Sion (or basically any tank) would be bad, when in reality the people complaining about Sion being bad are simply stupid morons. Similarly, a considerable portion of the boards still complains about Lee Sin, saying he is overpowered. In reality, he isn't doing very well at all and the people who think he is OP are dumb downy dickheads.

Oh, and Fiora is underpowered.

http://champion.gg/champion/Fiora

People with over 125 games on her can barely squeak out a fifty percent win rate on average. She's statistically performing much worse than Aatrox.

People don't complain about her being weak because they know that a "Buff Fiora" thread would attract downvotes from the stupid subhuman sodomites that make up the boards.

" The entirety of your reasoning is based on the premise that if more people complain about something, it must be true. This is a logical fallacy."

That doesn't mean its not true just because the premise is based on the masses. It means that there may be something to do it. But it sounds like you are dismissing it completely based on the fact that the initial evidence was people's perception, as if there couldn't possibly be any truth to it.

I think you missed the point I was making. A thing isn't talked about unless there is at least a little bit of truth to it. Fiora has a kit that is very strong--her win rate might reflect any number of factors such as her kit being harder to master perhaps. But I don't think anyone looks at her raw abilities and damage potential and thinks she is weak. Win rates are not everything.

I think you should try to have conversation rather than making snide remarks about logical fallacies which is basically an ad homimen in this case because while you are saying that you are pointing out a logical fallacy, what is really be smuggled in is "therefore you are illogical and uneducated, which means your opinion on the matter is dubious.

AlwaysByMySideApr 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

" The entirety of your reasoning is based on the premise that if more people complain about something, it must be true. This is a logical fallacy."

That doesn't mean its not true just because the premise is based on the masses. It means that there may be something to do it. But it sounds like you are dismissing it completely based on the fact that the initial evidence was people's perception, as if there couldn't possibly be any truth to it.

That would be a very strange point of view, considering I outright stated that Aatrox is not fine.

I think you missed the point I was making. A thing isn't talked about unless there is at least a little bit of truth to it.

There is no reason to assume this. The majority of people can be entirely incorrect about something, unless you believe that the old point of view that black people were savage and inferior to white people had a "little bit of truth to it".

Now, I think what you might be trying to say is that, in the context of League, a thing isn't talked about unless there has been some truth to it. People still say Yi is overpowered, for example, despite all evidence dictating he currently isn't, perhaps partly because of the fact that he was over-performing in recent history.

Fiora has a kit that is very strong--her win rate might reflect any number of factors such as her kit being harder to master perhaps. But I don't think anyone looks at her raw abilities and damage potential and thinks she is weak. Win rates are not everything.

She's weak because she deals less damage than she was while also being easier to kill.

She has to build a lot of damage to do damage as a melee champion, and because of that is easily blown up in team fights. Her W isn't enough to keep her from dying if the enemy team isn't stupid enough to waste all of their CC and burst on her in a single salvo. She is reliant on the enemy team being bad to excel, hence she is a bad champion.

Is Fiora's kit strong? Sure. But her numbers are awful now. The inability to build bruiser killed her.

I think you should try to have conversation rather than making snide remarks about logical fallacies which is basically an ad homimen in this case because while you are saying that you are pointing out a logical fallacy, what is really be smuggled in is "therefore you are illogical and uneducated, which means your opinion on the matter is dubious.

I don't think you know what an ad hominem is. An ad hominem is dismissing an argument by attacking the poster's character. I dismissed your argument because its entire foundation was a logical fallacy.

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=00070001000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-30T00:57:30.100+0000)

That would be a very strange point of view, considering I outright stated that Aatrox is not fine.

There is no reason to assume this. The majority of people can be entirely incorrect about something, unless you believe that the old point of view that black people were savage and inferior to white people had a "little bit of truth to it".

Now, I think what you might be trying to say is that, in the context of League, a thing isn't talked about unless there has been some truth to it. People still say Yi is overpowered, for example, despite all evidence dictating he currently isn't, perhaps partly because of the fact that he was over-performing in recent history.

She's weak because she deals less damage than she was while also being easier to kill.

She has to build a lot of damage to do damage as a melee champion, and because of that is easily blown up in team fights. Her W isn't enough to keep her from dying if the enemy team isn't stupid enough to waste all of their CC and burst on her in a single salvo. She is reliant on the enemy team being bad to excel, hence she is a bad champion.

Is Fiora's kit strong? Sure. But her numbers are awful now. The inability to build bruiser killed her.

I don't think you know what an ad hominem is. An ad hominem is dismissing an argument by attacking the poster's character. I dismissed your argument because its entire foundation was a logical fallacy.

Your reply was very short, basically about my logical fallacy. You didn't write more because covertly, consciously or unconsciously, you responding to my post with 2 sentences was the same way as saying "you are illogical, therefore not worth responding more than saying you are illogical.

Do you get it?

Also, I clearly explained how your response was ad homimen and clearly showed I knew what it meant. If you aren't going to read peoples post and rush to prove your intelligence and show others who wrong they are, do the world a favor and stop responding on boards.

AlwaysByMySideApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Your reply was very short, basically about my logical fallacy. You didn't write more because covertly, consciously or unconsciously, you responding to my post with 2 sentences was the same way as saying "you are illogical, therefore not worth responding more than saying you are illogical.

Brevity is wit.

Your post didn't warrant a response larger than the one I gave it, because my own post refuted the reasoning of your post.

Do you get it?

Do you get it?

Also, I clearly explained how your response was ad homimen and clearly showed I knew what it meant. If you aren't going to read peoples post and rush to prove your intelligence and show others who wrong they are, do the world a favor and stop responding on boards.

You can't even spell it, you obviously don't know what it is.

^ An actual ad hominem.

No, it's not an ad hominem because I merely attacked your reasoning, because your reasoning was logically fallacious. I said nothing about you personally. If other people choose to look at your post and you in such a manner that is no fault of mine.

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=0007000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-30T05:27:34.756+0000)

Brevity is wit.

Your post didn't warrant a response larger than the one I gave it, because my own post refuted the reasoning of your post.

Do you get it?

You can't even spell it, you obviously don't know what it is.

^ An actual ad hominem.

No, it's not an ad hominem because I merely attacked your reasoning, because your reasoning was logically fallacious. I said nothing about you personally. If other people choose to look at your post and you in such a manner that is no fault of mine.

"You can't even spell it, you obviously don't know what it is.

^ An actual ad hominem."

And yet how you cant see how that is the same as:

"you are illogical, so therefore I won't bother responding in full to you"? What, because you didn't technically say that means you aren't guilty of attacking ME and my reasoning and suggesting through your lack of a detailed response that I wasn't even worth the effort.

Please, for all of you fancy talk, you are clearly just and over educated dolt who severely lack any real world experience.

AlwaysByMySideApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"You can't even spell it, you obviously don't know what it is.

^ An actual ad hominem."

And yet how you cant see how that is the same as:

"you are illogical, so therefore I won't bother responding in full to you"? What, because you didn't technically say that means you aren't guilty of attacking ME and my reasoning and suggesting through your lack of a detailed response that I wasn't even worth the effort.

Please, for all of you fancy talk, you are clearly just and over educated dolt who severely lack any real world experience.

I pointed out the fallacy you used and gave you helpful and friendly advice to educate yourself on the fallacies in question.

Based on what do I lack real world experience? Why do you believe having an education is a bad thing?

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=000700010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-30T05:39:38.927+0000)

I pointed out the fallacy you used and gave you helpful and friendly advice to educate yourself on the fallacies in question.

Based on what do I lack real world experience? Why do you believe having an education is a bad thing?

Because knowledge and information by itself is worthless without things like prudence and temperance, and these are often things that only real world hardships can produce in a person, as a virtue. Those that merely have lots of information in their head often mistake that information for intelligence, which is not the same thing, and then use that as a basis for their own ego.

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=00070001000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-30T00:57:30.100+0000)

That would be a very strange point of view, considering I outright stated that Aatrox is not fine.

There is no reason to assume this. The majority of people can be entirely incorrect about something, unless you believe that the old point of view that black people were savage and inferior to white people had a "little bit of truth to it".

Now, I think what you might be trying to say is that, in the context of League, a thing isn't talked about unless there has been some truth to it. People still say Yi is overpowered, for example, despite all evidence dictating he currently isn't, perhaps partly because of the fact that he was over-performing in recent history.

She's weak because she deals less damage than she was while also being easier to kill.

She has to build a lot of damage to do damage as a melee champion, and because of that is easily blown up in team fights. Her W isn't enough to keep her from dying if the enemy team isn't stupid enough to waste all of their CC and burst on her in a single salvo. She is reliant on the enemy team being bad to excel, hence she is a bad champion.

Is Fiora's kit strong? Sure. But her numbers are awful now. The inability to build bruiser killed her.

I don't think you know what an ad hominem is. An ad hominem is dismissing an argument by attacking the poster's character. I dismissed your argument because its entire foundation was a logical fallacy.

Cool dude, you added nothing of value to the post, so next time you see something from me, do everyone a a favor and just don't add your two cents. Also, get over yourself.

AlwaysByMySideApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Cool dude, you added nothing of value to the post, so next time you see something from me, do everyone a a favor and just don't add your two cents. Also, get over yourself.

I've added quite a bit of value by pointing out the fallacious reasoning in your posts.

Concede gracefully and think about maybe changing how you present yourself, or even consider reevaluating your flawed outlook on life when faced with reasoning that dismantles your own. Don't whine about it.

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

[deleted]

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Nope. You are garbage and an egotistical know it all who only posts to try to show how smart he is.

Next time I post, I would appreciate if if snide people like you don't reply. Good day.

AlwaysByMySideApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Nope. You are garbage and an egotistical know it all who only posts to try to show how smart he is.

Don't start your post off by saying "Lets look at this logically" without expecting for your logic to be analyzed and critiqued.

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9GIRXLqY,comment-id=000700010000000000000001000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-30T05:34:22.729+0000)

Don't start your post off by saying "Lets look at this logically" without expecting for your logic to be analyzed and critiqued.

You didn't critique it. You simply stated i was wrong and carried about your business. That is not critiquing. That is dismissing.

AlwaysByMySideApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You didn't critique it. You simply stated i was wrong and carried about your business. That is not critiquing. That is dismissing.

I was a nice enough guy to help you through why you were wrong in subsequent posts, as you recall.

Vicarious117Apr 29, 20161 votes

So, as another Aatrox player, I agree whole heartedly that they need to either buff the fuck out of him or likely to be more effective they should partially rework him. I've made posts about this in the past and even offered up rework ideas, but I generally get ignored.... or once I got bombarded by people claiming he was sleeper OP.... was weird cause of how obviously incorrect that sentiment is lol

BUT.... I have to let you know that Riot has not said he's ok where he is. Like I said I've made many posts in the past and I have gotten one Riot response on the subject and they said that they still liked his identity (something I was saying needs work, but they disagreed) but he was in fact in need of some help. This was just before his very miniscule passive buff, and they said they "have something on the way that might help, but didn't expect it to fix him entirely," which it hasn't.

Haven't heard anything since, but Riot is aware that he's in a weak spot right now, there are just other champions that need more attention then him, and that's coming from a fellow Aatrox player! Don't just assume they've written him off just cause they haven't done anything in a while, that's incredibly unfair to them, especially when they've said the opposite.

I'm not saying to stop bringing it up, I certainly won't, but don't put false words in Riot's mouth, making a case becomes more difficult if that were to continue....

DarkinlegendApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So, as another Aatrox player, I agree whole heartedly that they need to either buff the fuck out of him or likely to be more effective they should partially rework him. I've made posts about this in the past and even offered up rework ideas, but I generally get ignored.... or once I got bombarded by people claiming he was sleeper OP.... was weird cause of how obviously incorrect that sentiment is lol

BUT.... I have to let you know that Riot has not said he's ok where he is. Like I said I've made many posts in the past and I have gotten one Riot response on the subject and they said that they still liked his identity (something I was saying needs work, but they disagreed) but he was in fact in need of some help. This was just before his very miniscule passive buff, and they said they "have something on the way that might help, but didn't expect it to fix him entirely," which it hasn't.

Haven't heard anything since, but Riot is aware that he's in a weak spot right now, there are just other champions that need more attention then him, and that's coming from a fellow Aatrox player! Don't just assume they've written him off just cause they haven't done anything in a while, that's incredibly unfair to them, especially when they've said the opposite.

I'm not saying to stop bringing it up, I certainly won't, but don't put false words in Riot's mouth, making a case becomes more difficult if that were to continue....

Last year Meddler responded to one of my posts and said that they think Aatrox is in a good place. Perhaps there is confusion within Riot.

Vicarious117Apr 29, 20161 votes

Tiz possible, was also a year ago, maybe they changed their minds afterwards.

DeathBurstApr 29, 20161 votes

Also, plenty of people complain about Sion being weak. And plenty of people also say that Sion is currently in a good spot. At least one of this group is subject to "mass delusion". Your argument is invalid...

DarkinlegendApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Also, plenty of people complain about Sion being weak. And plenty of people also say that Sion is currently in a good spot. At least one of this group is subject to "mass delusion". Your argument is invalid...

Is it? Sounds like that Sion is balanced if its half and half as you say.

DeathBurstApr 30, 20161 votes

Well, you never mentioned the fact that there could be divergent opinions in your OP. You just said "if a lot of people say it's weak, then it's weak". And as for Sion, there are people saying that Aatrox is in an OK spot.

Vicarious117May 1, 20161 votes

You have to look at it objectively and not in some round about way of making a point.

Anyone who plays Sion understands he's in an ok place right now, but only in top lane, it's his jungling that needs some assistance, so if you hear anyone complaining about Sion being too weak they're likely unexperienced on the champ or are just raging after losing lane as him or something.

Where as most the people saying Aatrox needs help are all Aatrox players, where as it's mainly non-Aatrox players who argue back that he's in an ok place.

It's not so black and white, like you're implying with your out of the way attempt to disprove the OP....

DeathBurstMay 2, 20161 votes

OK, I'll grant you that I haven't completely argued in good faith. I don't know nothing about Aatrox, and I don't really care either way.

My point was more on the principle, and how I disagree with OP that it's easy to know what is too weak/strong, you just need to listen to what people post on the boards. There is so much sh*t posted on these boards, the signal-to-noise ratio is just horrible...

So yeah, maybe you're right about Aatrox. But how can I trust that when I see so many absurd threads about things that I do know about and that I know are ridiculous?

Vicarious117May 2, 20161 votes

That's a fair point, I state that Aatrox is weak out of personal experience as well as stats and data about the champ, but for someone who doesn't know or care about any of that then there really is no legitimate way of actually knowing the truth of his current state, especially on the forums.

So I see what you're saying now, and I can't disagree.