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Human Nature and Toxicity

Darkinlegend··9 votes·985 views

Riot seeks to strong arm players into behaving properly, with their chat restrictions and bans.

The problem is, is it rooted in two things. One that can not be changed, which is human nature. The second, is the game itself.

Now matter how well you play in a match, if the rest of the team is really bad and you lose, your efforts were completely wasted. This leads to feeling powerless. Feeling powerless causes either sadness or anger in people. If you are some zen jedi master, I apologize, but we are not all like you. But coming back to reality, that is just how people usually work. The game produces toxicity because players feel powerless.

Furthermore, people play games or sports for a release of some kind--in sports, you can release aggression, physically. There is an outlet for that through you actions and efforts. In League, you don't have that outlet, so shit talking, or talking trash becomes that outlet.

You are never going to change the fact that League of Legends has one of the most toxic player bases out of any game, UNLESS you do something to help players feel like they aren't completely powerless in the worst of situations.

For example, if in a match you lose 20 LP, but played very well--high KDA, high CS, huge percentage of damage done out of total team damage...these things should factor in and reduce how much you lose, so that in the best case scenarios, while you lost the match, you might only lose 5 or 7 or 10 LP instead.

I can see no reason why this cant be implemented. Players should be rewarded (in this case the reward is less loss of LP) for their INDIVIDUAL efforts, so that they don't feel completely powerless in the worst scenarios.

Riot, you will never change human nature. All of your tribunals and kool-aid talk about toxic players etc is just silly. Its become such a label that is thrown around---"you are TOXIC player"...almost like, you are less than others, you are a sub-human or a monster. You are toxic.

If anything is toxic around here, it's Riot's understanding of people and players. Sad actually, that such a huge game company can be so out of touch with reality.

25 Comments

Nobody11111 votes

I don't know of a competitive team based game that applies a system similar to what you suggest, maybe it could work but, it could also promote far more selfish gameplay and skew competitive integrity (HAH) even more

riot already rewards you for great singular play via the mastery points, something that not many games do.

Mmmm, if you excuse people just because of "its in the human nature" you open a massive pandora box of excuses to justify behaviors that aren't accepted in real life or in game. part of what makes us who we are is our ability to over come our nature and go above it, or channel it in different ways, they are not asking you to not feel angry,they are not asking you to not get mad,they are asking you not to act upon those feelings or channel them on something that is not the other players, be it by trying hard to beat the enemy team (my personal way, as I get more frustarted you will find my game play being more aggressive as I try harder and harder to kill the enemies.) which in a way is what most people do in real life sport when they get frustrated, they either channel it into the game, or not act upon it, no game allows you to just abuse other players.

though now that I think about it, contact sports are probably exceptions, but even those are bound inside rules of sportmanships, what is brandad as "toxic" falls outside of this, and even in real life sports people get penalized for such things.

in the end, you are allowed to get mad, you are allowed to get angry, or sad, just don't throw it at the other players in a offensive way.

Darkinlegend1 votes

{quoted}

I don't know of a competitive team based game that applies a system similar to what you suggest, maybe it could work but, it could also promote far more selfish gameplay and skew competitive integrity (HAH) even more

riot already rewards you for great singular play via the mastery points, something that not many games do.

Mmmm, if you excuse people just because of "its in the human nature" you open a massive pandora box of excuses to justify behaviors that aren't accepted in real life or in game. part of what makes us who we are is our ability to over come our nature and go above it, or channel it in different ways, they are not asking you to not feel angry,they are not asking you to not get mad,they are asking you not to act upon those feelings or channel them on something that is not the other players, be it by trying hard to beat the enemy team (my personal way, as I get more frustarted you will find my game play being more aggressive as I try harder and harder to kill the enemies.) which in a way is what most people do in real life sport when they get frustrated, they either channel it into the game, or not act upon it, no game allows you to just abuse other players.

though now that I think about it, contact sports are probably exceptions, but even those are bound inside rules of sportmanships, what is brandad as "toxic" falls outside of this, and even in real life sports people get penalized for such things.

in the end, you are allowed to get mad, you are allowed to get angry, or sad, just don't throw it at the other players in a offensive way.

Well ya know, lets starve people and then tell them not to be vicious towards each other trying to survive. Because human nature is no excuse. Of course its an excuse, and a damn good one, especially when you are talking about millions of people in a given situation.

The game puts people in situation that will stimulate a certain side of their nature.

I love how you totally didn't acknowledge the fact that the game is what is the cause of the toxicity. People are people. The variable here is that they are playing this game, and then they show levels of hostility that they don't show anywhere else in life.

Nobody11111 votes

{quoted}

Well ya know, lets starve people and then tell them not to be vicious towards each other trying to survive. Because human nature is no excuse. Of course its an excuse, and a damn good one, especially when you are talking about millions of people in a given situation.

The game puts people in situation that will stimulate a certain side of their nature.

I love how you totally didn't acknowledge the fact that the game is what is the cause of the toxicity. People are people. The variable here is that they are playing this game, and then they show levels of hostility that they don't show anywhere else in life.

thank you for completely missing my point

What you completely missed in my post, is that its not the emotions that lead to toxicity that people should get over, they can't, its impossible. But the way they express those feeling that lead to toxicity in a none toxic way that leads to mature behavior.

Thank you for using basic NEEDS being deprived as an example to justify people being unable to control their urge, and unfullfilled survival instinct that you can't find a alternative solution to, for, to a overly heated emotions that has a dozen other ways you can express yourself.

I didn't deny that the game cause toxicity, team based games often caused toxicity, all the top toxic communities happen in team based games, and this will not change its as you said in the human nature, and honestly I don't believe your system will fix it, because the the emotions are cause by in game frustration more often then after game lack of reward.

in the end, its not justified to act upon every urge that comes by human nature, and learning to suppress urges that are harmful to yourself and others, or express them in alternate ways, is part of growing up as a person.

that is the human variable, not if you feel or not feel those negative emotions that lead to toxicity, cause most people will in one point or another, but if you express them in a toxic way.

in the end, human nature for toxic behavior in video games is an excuse for, I couldn't find a good way to express my negative emotions so I'm venting people, something that is unacceptable in real life out side of maybe your personal friends.

Darkinlegend1 votes

{quoted}

thank you for completely missing my point

What you completely missed in my post, is that its not the emotions that lead to toxicity that people should get over, they can't, its impossible. But the way they express those feeling that lead to toxicity in a none toxic way that leads to mature behavior.

Thank you for using basic NEEDS being deprived as an example to justify people being unable to control their urge, and unfullfilled survival instinct that you can't find a alternative solution to, for, to a overly heated emotions that has a dozen other ways you can express yourself.

I didn't deny that the game cause toxicity, team based games often caused toxicity, all the top toxic communities happen in team based games, and this will not change its as you said in the human nature, and honestly I don't believe your system will fix it, because the the emotions are cause by in game frustration more often then after game lack of reward.

in the end, its not justified to act upon every urge that comes by human nature, and learning to suppress urges that are harmful to yourself and others, or express them in alternate ways, is part of growing up as a person.

that is the human variable, not if you feel or not feel those negative emotions that lead to toxicity, cause most people will in one point or another, but if you express them in a toxic way.

in the end, human nature for toxic behavior in video games is an excuse for, I couldn't find a good way to express my negative emotions so I'm venting people, something that is unacceptable in real life out side of maybe your personal friends.

Look dude, in an attempt to make yourself sound intelligent you are really over thinking this:

This game is played by MILLIONS of people. And every day NEW people start playing and old players quit. You will have millions of people starting to play this game every year for the first time. It would be GREAT if people could restrain their choice of words when they are pissed at the game or the match. But that is not reality. That will never happen. Its too many people. You aren't going to somehow improve all of them and get them to be more self controlled calm individuals, that is not reality. What you CAN do is make the game something that doesn't make people feel as powerless in ranked matched so as to mitigate the root cause of toxicity.

Now read the above paragraph again before you bother to respond to this.

Darkinlegend1 votes

{quoted}

I don't know of a competitive team based game that applies a system similar to what you suggest, maybe it could work but, it could also promote far more selfish gameplay and skew competitive integrity (HAH) even more

riot already rewards you for great singular play via the mastery points, something that not many games do.

Mmmm, if you excuse people just because of "its in the human nature" you open a massive pandora box of excuses to justify behaviors that aren't accepted in real life or in game. part of what makes us who we are is our ability to over come our nature and go above it, or channel it in different ways, they are not asking you to not feel angry,they are not asking you to not get mad,they are asking you not to act upon those feelings or channel them on something that is not the other players, be it by trying hard to beat the enemy team (my personal way, as I get more frustarted you will find my game play being more aggressive as I try harder and harder to kill the enemies.) which in a way is what most people do in real life sport when they get frustrated, they either channel it into the game, or not act upon it, no game allows you to just abuse other players.

though now that I think about it, contact sports are probably exceptions, but even those are bound inside rules of sportmanships, what is brandad as "toxic" falls outside of this, and even in real life sports people get penalized for such things.

in the end, you are allowed to get mad, you are allowed to get angry, or sad, just don't throw it at the other players in a offensive way.

Also, no one gives two shits about mastery points. We care about Rank. That is not a reward that has any real value.

BluePolarizer1 votes

just an observation: why do I keep seeing people with no ranked badges trying to justify toxicity?

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

so your saying because your ranked higher than me your smarter than me?

BluePolarizer1 votes

Are you trying to justify toxicity?

I'm a firm believer that ranks are there for a reason (at least, as of season 5) and that the 95% win rate of someone with a 600 MMR advantage over another, roughly corresponding to the gap between a silver and a plat, is also there for a reason.

The OP expressed that he 'only cares about rank'. Well, he's so low elo anyways, maybe it's better for him to improve his attitude first, then his mechanics/strategy, and finally start worrying about his rank.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

there are some people that look to create toxicity. but like it or not. the source of toxic behavior is being stuck in a match with people that don't seem to have any interest but purposely make you lose the match. am not toxic and never start anything but toxic gameplay makes me toxic sometimes. and i have to get things off my chest

Fovere1 votes

Couldn't agree with OP more.

So much talk about "toxic" players, nobody wants to recognize these are simply the player base in an emotional state, something that the nature of the team-reliant and competitive aspects of the game will bring out

Sure, there's a small percentage of people that are looking to be disruptive for attention or whatever else, and should certainly be dealt with, but the vast majority of "toxicity" is just people being people, and we should only be looking to step in when it crosses a line into harassment, which should be defined by some combination of severe and persistent speech.

Bronzoid1 votes

Riot is modern day Nazis. They are all power tripping.

Darkinlegend1 votes

{quoted}

Riot is modern day Nazis. They are all power tripping.

Yes they are. They are just a soulless company that only cares about the bottom line, at the expense of players who stick around NOT because the game is good, but because they are addicted.

They are basically like drug pushers, and I wish them the absolute worst in life.

Fanny Forecast1 votes

I'm a current psych major in college, have bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder (so I know how mood swings go... and extreme emotions...)

Basically, the League community acts like I did when I was 13-16. I was angry. I was almost always angry. I let out my anger in unhealthy ways, sometimes on others, sometimes on objects, sometimes on myself. This is VERY similar to the league community, they're letting their anger out in unhealthy ways, in this case, on others.

The issue being, just because you're angry doesn't mean you get to act on it in this way. I'm a firm believer in excuses aren't bad by default, but they don't justify actions. These are excuses, and yes, while they are totally valid excuses, it does not justify the behaviors.

I understand the League community is primarily younger kids, high school aged. I'm still pretty damn young myself and I do still struggle with my anger from time to time. The thing is though, I know it's wrong to take it out on others. I know to not do that, and I've implemented ways to NOT do that. If I feel like yelling at someone in chat, I type "/mute all" and just play till the end. After the game, I get up, I go for a walk, and just defuse. If I had a game where I'm mad about the outcome but didn't wanna rage at people, I just get up, get a glass of water, stretch, etc.

Basically, you're just trying to use excuses to justify your actions, which isn't how it works. You, and the rest of the community, need to figure out healthy behaviors to get out that anger that you feel. It'll make you a more functional League player and a more functional person in general.

Fovere1 votes

@FF

Do you understand the absurdity behind claiming there is something wrong with an entire population?

There is nothing special about the League community. We are a diverse group of people encompassing virtually every possible demographic. The players here are simply reacting/dealing with the environment.

We queue into a game with 9 other people. Those people have power over us, to shape our game experience. Generally, people are willing to follow the rules, so they stay in their game and when someone trolls/feeds/plays poorly, they keep quiet about it. They might do this many times, calling out a teammate is "toxic" now (never used to be).

Those feelings of helplessness build up, and eventually they are going to find an outlet. The person might rage/tilt and go off on a teammate, they might start feeding or trolling, or passive aggressively getting their mates killed. But most of your "trolls" and "toxic" players are just people got fed up for whatever reason.

If we aren't going to be allowed to expect a basic level of sincerity and effort from teammates, then the toxicity issues will always be there, or even worsen over time. There should be an expectation that when you go into a game, you are 100% present and focused on the game, and there should be a social consequence for those who are not. Continuously lowering the standard of play, as Riot seems to want, is going to result in greater frustrations and subsequent reactions.

Fanny Forecast1 votes

It's not absurd to claim there's something wrong with an entire population. There are definitely some that don't matchup, but when there's a majority that fit, it's a good statement. It's like saying republicans are bigoted. Some aren't, but a vast majority are.

Also, literally a tl;dr of what I said was "take out your frustrations in a healthy manner rather than on others." You seemed to miss the point of my post completely.

Toxicity will always be there, but with education it can be drastically reduced.

Also, calling out a teammate isn't toxic. I've said my fair share of "god, you suck," which is vaguely toxic, but a lot of people are extremely toxic. There comes to a point where it's excessive, toxic, and uncalled for.

Fovere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fanny Forecast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1VXwwMyE,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-05-02T03:09:53.503+0000)

It's not absurd to claim there's something wrong with an entire population. There are definitely some that don't matchup, but when there's a majority that fit, it's a good statement. It's like saying republicans are bigoted. Some aren't, but a vast majority are.

Nice.

Darkinlegend1 votes

{quoted}

Leave politics out of my posts.

Darkinlegend1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fanny Forecast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1VXwwMyE,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-05-02T03:09:53.503+0000)

It's not absurd to claim there's something wrong with an entire population. There are definitely some that don't matchup, but when there's a majority that fit, it's a good statement. It's like saying republicans are bigoted. Some aren't, but a vast majority are.

Also, literally a tl;dr of what I said was "take out your frustrations in a healthy manner rather than on others." You seemed to miss the point of my post completely.

Toxicity will always be there, but with education it can be drastically reduced.

Also, calling out a teammate isn't toxic. I've said my fair share of "god, you suck," which is vaguely toxic, but a lot of people are extremely toxic. There comes to a point where it's excessive, toxic, and uncalled for.

"There are definitely some that don't matchup, but when there's a majority that fit, it's a good statement. It's like saying republicans are bigoted. Some aren't, but a vast majority are."

Horrible example. That is so subjective...and a person's definition of bigoted varies. Some people think that I might be bigoted for citing FBI statistics that show more than 50 percent of murders are done by blacks, yet they make up only like THIRTEEN percent of the total U.S population. Unlike deciding which group is bigoted which is based on personal experiences and definitions and perhaps assumptions, the data I just gave you is researchable and not disputed by anyone.

So, my example much better than your snide way to interject your politics into my post, by saying something that probably isn't even true. The KKK was comprised of southern democrats, if you don't remember...and those southern politicians are the ones who created Jim Crow laws.

And then you had Woodrow Wilson, a progressive liberal democrat, who ran saying he would help blacks and then shit all over them once he got into office.

I've only listed the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, the Republicans are the ones who are bigoted. Clearly.

Fanny Forecast1 votes

You don't seem to realize much about US Politics, but this isn't the place or time to go into it. The only thing I'm gonna say is the KKK was most definitely not modern democrats. Even fucking ABE LINCOLN, who is considered one of the best Democratic presidents, was a racist shitbag. Times change, the democratic party's views change, as do the republican party's...

My point still stands, though... generalizations are acceptable, and that's what my initial statement was.

Darkinlegend1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fanny Forecast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1VXwwMyE,comment-id=00050000000000010000,timestamp=2016-05-03T11:17:06.337+0000)

You don't seem to realize much about US Politics, but this isn't the place or time to go into it. The only thing I'm gonna say is the KKK was most definitely not modern democrats. Even fucking ABE LINCOLN, who is considered one of the best Democratic presidents, was a racist shitbag. Times change, the democratic party's views change, as do the republican party's...

My point still stands, though... generalizations are acceptable, and that's what my initial statement was.

Abe Lincoln, the REPUBLICAN, who won election because of the large grass roots, Christian based effort to remove slavery, thus forming the Republican party, was one of the "best Democratic presidents?"

I don't know what idiot college you went to or are going to, but they filled your brain with mush apparently.

Meep Man1 votes

Now matter how well you play in a match, if the rest of the team is really bad and you lose, your efforts were completely wasted. This leads to feeling powerless. Feeling powerless causes either sadness or anger in people. If you are some zen jedi master, I apologize, but we are not all like you. But coming back to reality, that is just how people usually work. The game produces toxicity because players feel powerless.

What I get from here are people are sore losers that didn't realize they were going into a team game. You don't have to be Yoda to realize that. Look, if you are going to play a game and blame others for your loss because you feel "powerless", then don't play the game. You are the one making yourself feel powerless. Heck, do as Dyrus did and bring a pillow with you when you play League. Get mad? Punch it. However, in no world or game is putting other people down acceptable in any way! Most of the people who make posts like these come in with their facts and such, but they are all just making a dumb point appear smart on the surface. Toss around words like "human nature" and you think you sound like a scholar, but really you are just trying to justify terrible actions. I can claim it's human nature to want to eat and then steal a bunch of donuts from a store, but I would still get arrested. Mature up and face the facts. You act up, you get punished. Simple.

Darkinlegend1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1VXwwMyE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-05-02T12:17:44.919+0000)

What I get from here are people are sore losers that didn't realize they were going into a team game. You don't have to be Yoda to realize that. Look, if you are going to play a game and blame others for your loss because you feel "powerless", then don't play the game. You are the one making yourself feel powerless.Heck, do as Dyrus did and bring a pillow with you when you play League. Get mad? Punch it. However, in no world or game is putting other peo ple down acceptable in any way! Most of the people who make posts like these come in with their facts and such, but they are all just making a dumb point appear smart on the surface. Toss around words like "human nature" and you think you sound like a scholar, but really you are just trying to justify terrible actions. I can claim it's human nature to want to eat and then steal a bunch of donuts from a store, but I would still get arrested. Mature up and face the facts. You act up, you get punished. Simple.

"Heck, do as Dyrus did and bring a pillow with you when you play League. Get mad? Punch it. However, in no world or game is putting other peo ple down acceptable in any way!"

In the real world, no one plays a ranked competitive team games where they play with total random strangers and then have either individual record improved or diminished based on that.

I promise you if there was such a thing, some kind of sport that had people play for rank, glory and money, consisting of professionals or those hoping to become a professional, and they had to deal with random teammates.....there would be all kinds of hate and anger and drama. If you don't understand that you are not in touch with reality and how people behave.

Furthermore, you are living in a fantasy world where you think that somehow, some way, suddenly millions of people who are at different points in their life will all just....improve to be better humans and not get pissed off in the situation that this game creates. AND even if you did have way to systematically improve players mindsets there are...what...millions of new players each year who are going to come in and be "toxic" and potentially cause reactions with other players who don't want to be "toxic".

So, in the end, everything I said in my post is very valid. Good try though.

Beldair1 votes

Toxicity is the path to the dark side my young summoner...

Much anger..sense in you i do XD

Darkinlegend1 votes

{quoted}

Toxicity is the path to the dark side my young summoner...

Much anger..sense in you i do XD

Toxicity is a kool-aid that people like you have drank deeply. Riot is only concerned with addressing the symptom, which they like to call toxicity...but they won't acknowledge or address the root issues.

Saying "you are toxic" to someone is the same as saying "you are not worth engaging as a person. Nothing you say matters. You are less than me and the reason for everything wrong with League of Legends".

So if you want to throw around a label that implies so much, sure go nuts.

Beldair1 votes

I was making a joke furthering your zen jedi master statement.

But let me counter with this, Not all players are toxic. There are quite a few that simply play the game, have fun, and are good sports. Yes they may offer up advice or question ones choice of build or champ, but they never attack another for it.

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