Thornmail

ylneveaH evoL··1 votes·2,415 views

Why is it even in the game?

Serioulsy, lets look at this. It passively deals damage to people who are attacking you. It applies the damage before damage reduction, which is absurd. If I am a fully farmed ADC who can do about 1000 on a crit, I am taking 300 damage from thornmail per hit. Now, a tank with Randuins and Thornmail, who has specced into the defensive tree, with armor yellows will have about 230 armor. At 233.3 Armor, Thornmail reflects more damage than received! So out of my 1000 crit, the target receives 285ish damage, and I receive 300.

Here is something a lot of people don't know either: It reflects most on hit effects (Fiora ult, red buff, BOTRK, etc.) and will still reflect damage through shields and even if the attacker is BLINDED??? What? The attacker is dealing literally no damage, but receiving the full 30% back as if they were dealing damage. Now, the item (according to mathematical value) is 95% gold efficient, meaning the stats -> price ratio is almost even. This does not account for its passive damage reflection. In order for it to be 100% efficient, it must reflect 100gold worth of damage. Considering that as stated above it can reflect 300 damage, which is equivalent to 6 BF swords, I think it can easily be more than efficient. A BF sword is 31gold/1 point of damage. That means at 100 gold for the thornmail to be efficient, it has to reflect.....wait for it....3.3 damage. Considering the above stated scenario in which I have 1000 damage to the 300 reflected, thornmail is how 909% gold efficient.

So on average, an ADC (labelled the attacker) with 250 damage attacks the tank with thornmail (the defender) who has 225 armor. Each 1 point of armor adds 1% effective health (effective health being additional damage required to kill said target). Therefore, the defender with 225 armor has 225% additional health. At around 3000 health, the defender has 6750 effective health. With 40% armor pen on the attacker, the defender has 135 effective armor in which now the defender only has 4050 effective health. Reflect 30% of this effective health, and you get 1215 damage reflected. A general ADC has around 1900 health at level 18. This means that Thornmail is now damaging the attacker for 63% of their total health....passively.

Now after reading all this, a lot of it is rough numbers because every champions health pool and armor scaling is slightly different, but it is fairly accurate. Of course, there is life steal to factor in to the attacker, but any item that can PASSIVELY deal 63% of the attackers life should be looked at. Not to mention that it can be up to 909% gold efficient just on its passive alone. In total it is 994% efficient.

Where the major issue comes into play is that it is extremely efficient at what it does, but is completely useless towards magic damage, physical abilities, and the armor it gives is only 95% efficient. So why am I complaining do you ask? Because we have an item that is so heavily on one side of the scale that it should be completely overhauled or removed. To range between 95% effieciency -> over 909% efficient depending on the circumstance really imbalances this item. It is too good at what it does, but not good enough to do anything else, which makes it a niche item, which when used effectively can majorly upset the scales.

In my honest opinion, this item should be scrapped completely, there is no way to balance this item, it will either be complete garbage and very, very niche, or it will be so utterly dominant that we will have balance issues (remember release feral flame? Yeah let's not have anything like that again). Having this as an ability on Rammus is balanced as it is on a cooldown, and can be avoided, whereas Thornmail is a permanent passive.

TL;DR, Thornmail is too good at what it does, but complete garbage in every situation making it extremely imbalanced in a positive and negative way. Plus, just read the thread because you have no opinion unless you read my argument, you are simply a Bias Benjamin otherwise.

20 Comments

TehNACHO8 votes

Dat moment when OP ignores Last Whisper.

ylneveaH evoL1 votes

This is why I said read the thread before you respond. Because in my final overview and calculations, I included the 40% armor pen from last whisper. Dat moment when you ignore dat moment.

ladention7 votes

You realize everyone else is complaining that armor is too weak right now...

ylneveaH evoL2 votes

This has nothing to do with armor. I agree armor is too weak, which is why Thornmail sucks on it's own. But the passive is just way to imbalanced meaning that as a stand alone item it sucks, but in the niche moments, its way too strong. Hence being imbalanced (not unbalanced, or broken, IMBALANCED)

DorkunedAuras1 votes

One, the damage it reflects is magic damage, not true damage, meaning if the adc gets a 1k dmg crit, they don't receive 300 damage, they get less based on MR (not gonna bother with math, just reduces). Also, Lifesteal is a thing as well. In reality, an ADC with BT and a Bork will probably mostly nullify the damage from thornmail (or if it doesn't, they take off at least half of it). You are literally the only person complaining about OP thornmail, with everyone else saying it needs a buff. Someone here is wrong. I don't think it's the whole community.

Also, your gold efficiency calculations are so incredibly stupid. 909% cannot be am accurate percentage. No, just... no.

Kuroi864 votes

"Item is niche and not jack of all trades thus must be removed." Or you could stfu and realize that most of the items available are meant to be optional and niche in order to allow for situational builds.

Also, Bork passive is not affected by the passive on Thornmail, I don't know why but it isn't, makes no bloody sense.

The passive on Thornmail is meant to negate part of or all of a AA champs lifesteal, even the field a little, it's a niche item that does it's job well and isn't meant to be built every game.

A Wise Fool2 votes

I read the first paragraph and didn't want to read the rest but I think I got the point you are making. My counter is that adcs are the dominant driving force in the late game, it's just the way the game was designed. So riot decided to give the late game destroyer (adc) a counter (other than another adc). thornmail. if an adc has just 1 item of life steal it greatly negates the effectiveness. not totally, but greatly

and if you are of the feeling that adcs should have no counter other than each other, i strongly disagree with you

ylneveaH evoL2 votes

Yeah, you need to read past it to understand what I am trying to say. Yes ADC's are way too strong in this meta, and armor is really weak with the availability of armor pen. The thread is all about how Thornmail excels too much at what it does, but sucks otherwise which makes it an imbalanced item.

A Wise Fool1 votes

"it excels at what it does, but sucks otherwise" isnt that what an item should do?

Grimspeake2 votes

what about your 50% lifesteal and 2 attack speed.

bye bye fed tank who dominated top lane in 3 seconds.

to think u almost had enough time to get on the adc.

WatrTowr2 votes

Thornmail has existed for a long, long time. Malzahar is strong countered by QSS, and that's considered a good thing. ADCs are strongly countered by thornmail, and that's bad?

Brorelia2 votes

Yeah it needs to be an active that last 4 seconds and returns 100% of the damage taken to the attacker.

Really good item equivelent in Dota 2 but the league version is just so ineffective between life steal being everywhere and MR being something that most ADC will get be it QSS or BV.

It needs some changes.

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

OP, in order for Thornmail to reflect 300 damage per attack, that requires that you be dealing over 1000 damage per hit, which in turn means that they'll melt faster than you will if you have a Bloodthirster like you should.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ylneveaH evoL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=99ZyAROp,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-12T04:42:03.832+0000)

Here is something a lot of people don't know either: It reflects most on hit effects (Fiora ult, red buff, BOTRK, etc.) and will still reflect damage through shields and even if the attacker is BLINDED???

WRONG

Well, okay, you're right that Fiora's ultimate is reflected by Thornmail, but Blade Waltz is not an on-hit effect. It's a spell that applies on-hit effects. Thornmail is an on-hit effect as well.

Thornmail does not reflect on-hit effects, not even BotRK, despite it being physical.

Detail aside, Thornmail is allowed to exist because it's top-heavy for defense. Heavy resistance of one type, and no bonus HP. Compared to Randuin's Omen or Sunfire Cape, it grants less effective HP. It also only works against basic attacks and the few spells that apply on-hit effects (and not on-hit effects themselves).

So you can either let a mage blow them up, or you can wait until you've killed the easier targets and then have the whole team melt them down.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Why did you focused a heavy tank with Thornmail in teamfights for...........?

jpguy9021 votes

Not only can adcs melt tanks late game currently, Thornmail is pretty strong earlier on, but it deals magic damage. So build a little mr and you can carry on your merry way.

DwainTheRock1 votes

Yep, I main ADC and life steal + MR makes Thornmail totally manageable IMO.

Critkeeper1 votes

It is polarizing, which makes it overpowered.

Extreme Troller1 votes

thornmail is bad, botrk counter it

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