The Smite meta is proof that we lack summoner spell diversity

Desiderium··73 votes·4,745 views

It's not that the upgrades are OP. I mean compared to the rest of the game, right now they are OP. But you need to think deeper than that. Why would top lane, the "island" of the map, need the objective control of smite? Because the upgrades are just that powerful. They might as well not even have the true damage to monsters part of it. I've watched people win games with top lane CInderhulk without ever remembering to use Smite on....anything. Now what if we had new summoner spells that can fulfill all these niches?

For red smite - what about a duelist summoner spell? Take a % less damage from and deal % more damage to a certain target. % scales with levels.

I know the design behind the different smite spells is to give Junglers more strategic choice (Do I save Smite for the coming Dragon fight or do I Smite the enemy during my gank, etc) but the reason why laners are using it is because of the actives, and the reason why the actives are worth it is because we don't have enough summoner spell diversity.

Riot let me make this clear: It's not that you made a "mistake" with the new Smite. In fact, all that has really been exposed is that we don't have enough summoner spells (or useful summoner spells) which you have known for a very long time already but I guess now is when that wound in the game is finally festering. You can only go so long with a part of a game not being fixed or helped in any way until things like this happen.

One final note about your "let's sit and watch for a bit" plans with Cinderhulk: I like the thought, but you guys need to understand the difference between "let's wait and watch how people deal with it" and "wow this is just blatantly, clearly, and unarguably overpowered and there's no amount of time or adaptation that can fix this."

92 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer25 votes

So people complained about how Flash made the meta stale, and that hardly anyone did not take Flash in every game, but now that people are actively not taking flash (and quite a lot), people are again complaining about how Summoner Spells lack diversity?

EvilRabbitt2 votes

In a nutshell. Always something. "We have no spell diversity, Flash is necessary." "Hey flash and smite are equal, we need more diversity and smite needs to be nerfed because I don't want to be using it." Did I read that right?

Desiderium7 votes

{quoted}

In a nutshell. Always something. "We have no spell diversity, Flash is necessary." "Hey flash and smite are equal, we need more diversity and smite needs to be nerfed because I don't want to be using it." Did I read that right?

No. Not even close.

EvilRabbitt2 votes

Le gasp. Correct me?

Edit: I was referring to general board manner btw. There is always something. Everyone rowed the lee sin boat, then everyone rowed the "only warrior enchantment is strong" boat, now everyone is rowing the "tank meta and tank destroyers op" boat. Wasn't trying to disrespect your poster, just what I see. Seriously, open the hot tab and parse through 20-30. You will find loads of stuff on this. People asking to buff other enchantments to cinderhulk level or complaining that Jinx is too strong (because no one knows her two best counters, Twitch and Ashe, since they never see LCS level play). Again, not trying to disrespect.

lDontLiftIcarry2 votes

warrior enchantment was strong. It still is a good choice. The problem is that strong champions become broken and weak champions become moderate. The items only exaggerate this 10 fold. It will always be this way.

Penta Penguin7 votes

Everyone else is still running flash, and the top-laner doesn't run it because of "spell diversity". Nobody in general asks "Do I want to take Smite or Flash this game?" IT's a specific Top-lane build, and in no way equal to the general power and ubiquity of Flash.

You will only ever see Flash, Smite, Heal, Ignite, Exhaust, Teleport; and usually always on the same role. Carries = Heal / ignite, Support = exhaust, top laner = TP. Mid-laners now want to take Exhaust; again, not "spell diversity". It's the same powerful spell becoming more ubiquitous or in a different position.

Ghost has seemed to disappear, it used to be run a lot but now I hardly see it anymore. Heal's rework killed Barrier and you can find the discussions on here with the math about how it's a complete downgrade from Heal. Revive was flat-out removed from the game.

Clarity is a joke; you buy Ring and use your brain to conserve mana, Blue Buff is better. Later you have mana items and mana barely matters anyway. Clairvoyance is hilarious, it's so useless compared to other spells you'll be called a troll if you pick it. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

I never see Cleanse even though everybody here loves to mention it. Bulky characters have tenacity and slow-reduction stats. Half of the carry spectrum has QSS that will fit onto their AD build. Even AP carries will want to build QSS then sell it later rather than take Cleanse.

Occams Raiser2 votes

If cleanse had a lower cooldown you would see it. Summoner spells should be balanced on cooldowns. It help with the diversity.

Onegarion1 votes

While heal > Barrier I still run barrier when I want to play defensive as mid. It "counters" ignite better than heal after its applied. Typically defensive Summs in mid are used after the aggression from your opponent and that will typically mean ignite has been used. Thus making heal already half as effective. This fact has let me get many early kills as a support, get the early lvl 2 go all in and put ignite down and there goes so much healing that its either a kill or they have to back. Essentially winning bot lane.

I really wish Ghost was stronger. Something to make it worth taking over flash. I want flash to be the flashy get away and going over walls or skills while ghost is better in lane. Maybe making slows X% less effective or something.

Maybe make Cleanse a spell shield instead with the effects of cleanse. Make it last like 1-2 secs. Might be OP, but some change is better than nothing.

Akesgeroth1 votes

There are people who don't take Flash? Forgive me but I haven't played in a few months, was it nerfed?

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

No, it wasn't nerfed. However, do to the introduction on Cinderhulk as a Smite Enchantment, top laners could get very nice tanky stats + waveclear/AoE teamfight damage with a relatively inexpensive item. All it required was for them to take Smite, which they could then upgrade to item 3715 or item 3706, which allows them to smite champions, and depending on which one you took, it could serve as a replacement for Ignite or a flash engage. Also it allows for much better global objective control and counter jungling (which was used to effectiveness a few times in the EULCS semis and finals)

Durzaka12 votes

No, smite being taken top lane is proof that tanks are so fucking starved for good items, they would rather take smite to get an extra one than take flash and not get it.

There are so few choices when it comes to good tank items (for everyone, like Shyvana cant build Frozen Heart), that Cinderhulk is a really big deal.

Also, people bitch and moan about everyone taking Flash, but now that people have a fucking choice to not take it, you complain they are taking Smite toplane, make up your mind.

Desiderium2 votes

{quoted}

No, smite being taken top lane is proof that tanks are so fucking starved for good items, they would rather take smite to get an extra one than take flash and not get it.

There are so few choices when it comes to good tank items (for everyone, like Shyvana cant build Frozen Heart), that Cinderhulk is a really big deal.

Also, people bitch and moan about everyone taking Flash, but now that people have a fucking choice to not take it, you complain they are taking Smite toplane, make up your mind.

What's with all these people talking about Flash?

When did I complain about Flash in my OP?

Flash will always be necessary. It's not negotiable. Built-in flash would do wonders for spell diversity but they haven't done it yet since certain combinations would be op (imagine ignite + exhaust on Kha'Zix or heal + cleanse on Vayne)

But having more spells that are similar to the jungle item spells (that are only being taken due to said lack of diversity) won't hurt anybody. If they're balanced then theoretically we would see them just as often as the other summoners as long as their untuneable mechanics are not insanely good (i.e. Flash) so it's not like it would be a bad thing to have like 50 summoner spells as long as each one is useful and serves a purpose and isn't broken to use or have it used against you.

Durzaka6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kinky Ninja Boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=92rIuAE9,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2015-05-07T17:27:24.970+0000)

What's with all these people talking about Flash?

When did I complain about Flash in my OP?

Flash will always be necessary. It's not negotiable. Built-in flash would do wonders for spell diversity but they haven't done it yet since certain combinations would be op (imagine ignite + exhaust on Kha'Zix or heal + cleanse on Vayne)

But having more spells that are similar to the jungle item spells (that are only being taken due to said lack of diversity) won't hurt anybody. If they're balanced then theoretically we would see them just as often as the other summoners as long as their untuneable mechanics are not insanely good (i.e. Flash) so it's not like it would be a bad thing to have like 50 summoner spells as long as each one is useful and serves a purpose and isn't broken to use or have it used against you.

Because people are taking Smite instead of Flash, not Smite instead teleport/ignite.

Meaning that Smite is a viable option for replacing Flash. That means we actually have MORE diversity, not less.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Doesn't sound right. Mobility gives this ability. The more champs with mobility the less HAVE to take flash. Those who take smite are usually tanky. A gank doesn't kill them in lane.

Durzaka1 votes

come again?

Mobility gives what ability?

And i dont care what class or character your playing, you not having Flash makes it much more likely a gank will succeed in killing you (until multiple items are built).

Occams Raiser1 votes

Yeah I wasn't clear. Champs with mobility give way to a surge of people that don't think they need flash as long as they have some other factor that like a dash or tankiness to play safe around until they can get fed. It isn't a matter of spell diversity. It is more a question of what else looks good to chose now that I am playing a champ that would make flash slightly redundant.

At low ELO (below gold) not having a flash doesn't seem to factor into many junglers mindset.

Durzaka2 votes

And I am calling bullshit on that logic.

If that was the case, people would run things like ignite/heal or heal/barrier or w/e on champions like Lucian, Graves, or Ezreal.

That simply isnt the case.

In fact, the prime users of Smite top lane (not the only ones, just what appears to be most popular at a competetive level) dont have something to make up for not having Flash. Im speaking primarily of Shyvana, who was the top laner who made the big splash in pro play with smite top.

This is a GOOD type of diversity. You make a very clear cut decision with your summoners spells. There are very clear upsides and downsides to taking Smite vs. taking something like Flash.

Occams Raiser1 votes

In fact, the prime users of Smite top lane (not the only ones, just what appears to be most popular at a competitive level) dont have something to make up for not having Flash.

I said like dash or tankiness. And I am not denying that top smite isn't the next big thing until it gets nerfed. I think we are just saying that look what people do when you give them a sliver of something else beside the norm. Now you have a new meta of people picking smite. There wouldn't be a problem if you had 10 equally viable spells to chose from.

Durzaka1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=92rIuAE9,comment-id=000a0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-08T03:01:10.302+0000)

I said like dash or tankiness. And I am not denying that top smite isn't the next big thing until it gets nerfed. I think we are just saying that look what people do when you give them a sliver of something else beside the norm. Now you have a new meta of people picking smite. There wouldn't be a problem if you had 10 equally viable spells to chose from.

What the hell is wrong with people picking smite? Not everyone is doing it. It isnt like Flash used to be (still is). There are actual positives and negatives to it.

We dont want this taken away, we want MORE of this to happen.

Take it away and you go back to the old boring norm.

Occams Raiser1 votes

true dat.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Why do you seem so upset? The OP doesn't want smite gone, just a spell that acts the same so you're not pushed into building an item for it.

BluePolarizer1 votes

None of the top laners who take smite have wall jump mobility until they get ults.

Occams Raiser1 votes

They just play safe till 6. With out hard cc'ing them you won't get a kill off of them unless they over extend. With no flash, they will play it cool if this is the tactic they are using.

BluePolarizer1 votes

sure. then you get freefarm over them. freeze lane with a bully like Riven or Pantheon and then wreck them with superior items.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Going up against a lane bully is always going to be hard. If you see them picked you have to rethink you plans. If you see Shen, continue.

Onegarion1 votes

they also tend to have their own way of running away. Hec and Shyv (top 2 champs I've seen take Smite top) both have ways of getting away WHILE they tank it up. So flash itself doesn't matter as much since they are going rather aggressive because of the extra damage and not as worried about being able to get away.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Flash is OP then. That means no summoner spell diversity in using flash. Smite over flash is summoner spell diversity.

Onegarion1 votes

Its means Smite/smite upgrade is more OP than Flash. The world will now end because Flash isn't the Most OP thing anymore.

GiveMeTalonPlz9 votes

No, the smite top "meta" is proof that everyone is retarded and will do literally anything they do in the LCS or on some Challenger players stream.

Biffolo1 votes

{quoted}

No, the smite top "meta" is proof that everyone is retarded and will do literally anything they do in the LCS or on some Challenger players stream.

News flash: If it gets wins, then doing it is probably the correct choice.

Ratbert2 votes

At that skill level. What works there might not work sub-challenger and vice versa.

BluePolarizer1 votes

+1. I've seen too many smite/TP laners have weak map awareness and die to ganks involving heavy slows or stuns that they would've escaped with Flash or Ghost.

Biffolo1 votes

{quoted}

At that skill level. What works there might not work sub-challenger and vice versa.

If it works for me, I'm going to straight abuse it.

Teridax689 votes

I feel the summoner 11 meta has more to do with enchantments being really powerful, and not actives. Specifically, the item 3717 enchantment's basically a better item 3068 and item 3083 put together on a tanky build, with the duelist Smite being the icing on the cake. There was a similar phase back in Season 3 when Spirit of the Elder Lizard/Spirit of the Spectral Wraith granted so many free stats at such low prices that they were purchased by laners with little regard to their jungle bonuses. Now that Cinderhulk's having a lot of power shifted towards jungle-specific bonuses, it's likely the Smite top meta will die down a little.

Duke Anax2 votes

Douptfull. No one takes Cinderhulk for the damage, not even the Junglers.

As long as it is the best HP item in the game it is a must buy for most any Tank.

Silents4291 votes

I beg to differ, Us tank mains in the jungle do in fact take it for the damage. We need it for decent clearing.

Duke Anax1 votes

Really? When I Jungle I tke a Tank too (usually AListar) and I barely notice the difference, or at least "decend clear" is something different.

For decend clear I get Tiamat first and then go Cinderhulk.

Silents4291 votes

Okay well a Tiamat is useless on most Tank Junglers.

It isn't just the bonus health and it isn't just the extra damage, it's both of these aspects that have made the Cinderhulk amazing for tanks right now.

The bonus health allows tanks Late game to appear a bit sooner so they don't get phased on like before, while the damage, helps with clears and especially helps if you get counter jungled or killed early with catching up.

Eraest977 votes

Whats wrong with top laner taking smite? It makes the player choose between flash or teleport for damage. Makes the player choose his first item to be the red jungle item. Makes the player choose between more objective control or mobility. I understand your wish with summoner spell diversity but honestly how do you compete with an ability that lets jump over walls, helps you get kills, gives your team health, or helps you with the jungle. Even if Riot increases the amount of summoner spells, there is not guarantee that players will use it.

And with Cinderhulk, Riot is testing out changes. The only problem is you don't want them to underpower Cinderhulk, because lord and behold the assassin meta come back and have to go back to people complaining about assassins again.

Onegarion2 votes

Personally the only reason I hate it is because of cinderhulk. I don't see anyone take any other smite upgrade top. I'd honestly say this doesn't make it very diverse since its the only upgrade being taken. If there were more smites/enchantments being used top I would agree, but its always cinderhulk/skirmishers. I would push that its less about the diversity of summoners and more about the power of cinderhulk.

I would be fine if people wanted to get more objective control, but its more about getting cinderhulk and building tank after. If the smite upgrade and objective control were the reason people took it I would not only agree but welcome this change.

A Miss Fortune4 votes

No idea how this thread isn't popular yet. What's said is really true. There's not many summoner spells and multiple of the few we have are not effective.

summoner 4 summoner 6 summoner 7 summoner 14summoner 21 summoner 11 summoner 12 summoner 3

8 spells and it kind of gets old. Sure some people might take other spells but they're just not effective.

I think that mostly all old spells removed should be brought back. Even though some may not be viable it doesn't matter. For example I've taken Clairvoyance on full AD Lulu support and had a ton of fun.

Silents4291 votes

They all serve a decent function, it's the players that need to get out of the hole and try some new things.

None of those are better then the other in what they do, but ignite and flash are more generalized then the others.

I take Exhaust and Smite as Jungle shen and have had fantastic results, I watch ADCs take barrier and have it save them on many occasions, Plenty of bot laners still take heal, If anything the only one that actually needs changes is Ghost since a small long ass CDR movement speed boost isn't all that great when Flash actually IS a better version.

Orangesilk4 votes

It's not broken, they are making one hell of a tradeoff in their lack of flash, it's bringing DIVERSITY back into the toplane, this isn't a bad thing, this is a fun thing. I mean, it's not like Cinderhulk existing is stopping people from picking the usual counter-melee tops like Liss, Lulu or Kayle, it's just giving some melee champions the chance to stand up to better duelists by sacrificing a summoner spell.

(Except for Gnar, fuck Gnar and his design, resourceless sustainful ranged %HP damage dealing toplaner is cancer and has always been)

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

Another interesting point is that because the top laner is ahead of the jungler exp-wise his smite will do more damage than the enemy junglers. So a top lane smite does more damage when contesting objectives than a junglers smite and in theory they win the smite-fights.

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=spell-popularity&range=daily&map=sr&queue=normal

Also, almost everyone is still taking summoner 4 with good diversity among some of the other spellssummoner 14 summoner 7 summoner 11 summoner 12 summoner 3 which are still quite popular and summoner 21 is still on the chart. So really it's just {{summoner:2}} summoner 13 summoner 1 summoner 6 that are being under-utilized.

insaiyanbacca2 votes

their sacrificing flash to take smite which brings diversity to top it isnt always flash tp it also has its counters anyone that can beat them up early (renek j4 darius even tiger udyr) destroys them and delays their cinderhulk so technically it has brought some diversity and has counters

Aheadatime1 votes

what about a duelist summoner spell? Take a % less damage from and deal % more damage to a certain target

I agree that we need summoner spell diversity, but you just explained exhaust lol.

"Take a % less damage from" = Reduces their damage by 40%

"Deal % more damage to" = Reduces their armor and MR by 10

Desiderium1 votes

{quoted}

"Deal % more damage to" = Reduces their armor and MR by 10

I don't think Exhaust has been doing that since Season 3-4.

Aheadatime1 votes

Whattttt. If that's the case, that's lame. It still says it in the in-game tooltip ffs.

Desiderium1 votes

{quoted}

Whattttt. If that's the case, that's lame. It still says it in the in-game tooltip ffs.

I just looked it up and apparently they removed the mastery that made Exhaust do what you said but they also ended up implementing it into the spell itself, so it does still work. But it doesn't make it a "duelist" type of spell as I was suggesting as much as it just makes the enemy slightly more easy to hurt with the rest of your team. Which is why supports take it more than anyone else. You'd never see a support take a summoner spell that straight-up reduces the damage they take from someone while increasing their own by percentages.

MasterVidallis1 votes

The problem with smite top, well there are many, but the one in regards to it being "diversity" in summoner spells is that it's not really. It only works on tops that are tanky and generally that have build in escapes, so they can sort of afford to go without flash since they're less subjective to die to ganks. When you look at good summoner spells, they are not only good on one very small subset of champions for one particular lane. Smite on tanky tops is a design flaw not real summoner spell diversity.

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