so riot nerfed farming junglers yet again...

rawiazam1·Jan 24, 2019·36 votes·13,514 views

there is no way that a non oppressive, farming jungler gets level 6 before bot lane after the recent jungle nerfs.

i'm still surprised that riot is pushing a nonstop ganking jungle style

63 Comments

ŚtrongMentalJan 24, 201921 votes

they basically drove half of their junglers out of the game... most of the one tricks who main them have began swapping to a more supportive role rather than a gank role...

FemalesAreLesserJan 24, 20199 votes

thats a good thing, junglers shouldnt be rewarded with ignoring everything and afk farming for 30 mins. nobody should.

rawiazam1Jan 24, 201921 votes

fristly, i see no reason as to why a passive playstyle shouldn't be rewarded.

secondly, these changes dramatically increase jungle snowballing and puts every jungler that needs to farm to level 6(mind you not 30 mins) out the window. If a jungler gets killed early or some camps stolen, this jungler will most likely stay behind ALL the game, which isn't fair

LTK KoRoJan 24, 201911 votes

Passive playstyle should be rewarded, but much less than aggressive playstyle. Farming to lategame shouldn't be the main gameplan either. In theory, passive gameplay should be low risk low reward, while aggressive gameplay should be high risk high reward.

Just MonikhaJan 24, 201913 votes

Search the high risk in LeeSin Camille XinZhao Graves chasing the first champion they see straight after redbuff

LTK KoRoJan 24, 20191 votes

going ham with red for someone at lvl 2 is much more risky than waveclearing and stalling for late as Sivir Tristana Azir

ThefrostyvikingJan 24, 20192 votes

You do know that the main time you engage at lvl 2 as a laner is when you ensure that you hit it before the enemy laners yes?

And junglers ganking at lvl 2 can be super lethal simply because either its unexpected or some champs wont have the means to deal with it at that point-

NhikaJan 25, 20191 votes

All the level 2 damage is from runes + ignite solo laners.

ThefrostyvikingJan 25, 20192 votes

You seem new so i´ll try to explain the idea.

The level 2 thing is simple, its well known that once you clear 1 wave and 1 minion for a solo lane you´ll hit lvl 2, for botlane its 1 wave and 3 melee minions.

So some will try to use a bit of cheese here, they will simply do everything to push the second wave a little bit faster than their enemies without burning any significant resources to hit 2 first, then they will immediately attack the enemies who are still level 1.

Doesnt matter much what the enemy side does at that point, the difference in a full ability and having less minions usually means the fight is lost for them no matter what, so if the enemy side doesnt realize this is happening in time they will either die, be forced to use a summoner or at least recall, any secures you an easy advantage.

This is the level 2 cheese strategy, and it doesnt even rely on runes or summoners much as the idea is simply to go all in and force a trade the enemy can never win even if you dont use summoners at all.

TehNACHOJan 25, 20191 votes

Well at least in Camille the risk is real. If she fails her first gank, that can drop her really far behind really quickly since she can't really farm to recover anyway.

The others, less so.

HammermancerOct 24, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Just Monikha,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vPEVLgw,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-24T14:42:13.653+0000)

Search the high risk in chasing the first champion they see straight after redbuff

I mean when they find me I'm usually high, so they get reward

FemalesAreLesserJan 25, 20191 votes

I really like the way you've worded this, because i fully agree. the way i was saying it was more so saying that it should NOT be low risk high reward. which is how it seems to be at times, i believe strongly in if you want a lead, use your brain, think of a way to get a lead, adn be proactive to get it. not sit, clear camps that are 100% gonna be there with 0 interaction and 0 planning to be done. people should have to DO things to get a reward. not just have it given to them.

FemalesAreLesserJan 25, 20191 votes

there is a different between passive, and afk farming though, passive would be if the oppertunity presents itself infront of you, then you'd take it given its right there, simple, no risk. Afk farming is literally just ignoring everyone till 25 mins, while you let your laners burn and drag and rift be taken (looking at you shyvanna players)

WøOxerJan 24, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Ðamage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vPEVLgw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-24T11:08:08.528+0000)

thats a good thing, junglers shouldnt be rewarded with ignoring everything and afk farming for 30 mins. nobody should.

So then afk farming laners also should be punished like getting less XP as well...

FemalesAreLesserJan 25, 20191 votes

maybe not in terms of exp, but maybe in other ways, have less in game things make it so players can sit back and do nothing while getting ahead from it. and also it's different for lanes, in lane you have to worry about last hit and your enemy laners, and missing cs can make you fall behind enough from the enemy laner, in the jungle you very rarely have to worry about last hitting, its almost guaranteed Farm. where as in lane its not 100% that you'll get that gold and max exp from every creep. and some lanes can be so bad that you wont even get the exp from it if the zoning is done right. sooo it would be treated completely different, but this would be comparing apples to oranges. jg to lanes.

Buckeye2002Oct 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So then afk farming laners also should be punished like getting less XP as well...

They generally do

NhikaJan 25, 20192 votes

[deleted]

FemalesAreLesserJan 25, 20191 votes

at least someone gets it

Bears Dont CareJan 25, 20194 votes

{quoted}

What the fuck? Why does this have so many downvotes?

That is because the statement is ignorant.

AFK jungler's should be perma banned. Just because half of you trolls.

So the only jungler wanted is a jungler who constantly ganks lanes for ZEH EPIC PLAYZ

NO WONDER Riot doesn't listen to the community. All of the smart players retired already lol.

You do kind of add to it.

Just MonikhaJan 25, 20192 votes

Strange both of those guys that blames "afk junglers" are not jungler mains first of all but also ADC mains XDDDD like it s not enough to get babysitted by the support they also want the jungler to be their support v2 XDDDDDD

ApexInTheCircleJan 25, 20192 votes

{quoted}

thats a good thing, junglers shouldnt be rewarded with ignoring everything and afk farming for 30 mins. nobody should.

Nasus ".....Piss off" Veigar "Watch me, just fucking watch me" Sion "I'm Healfy" KogMaw "Just wait"

Actually a fair bit of champions are hold out and wait champs. And that's a-okay especially when alot of us want longer games.

FemalesAreLesserJan 25, 20191 votes

but they are laners, they have to work for their cs, and have a much higher chance to miss out on farm,stacks. where as in the jungle, not eve camp is being killed by another camp, while you have an enemy killing you. they work for the farm, are are rewarded for getting as much as possible. in the jungle, its just there, on set timers, 100% chance it's going to be there when the timer reaches 0 for that camp. you don't work for it, its there and waiting for you.

RekSai CoffeeCoOct 24, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Not Adrian Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vPEVLgw,comment-id=000000040000,timestamp=2019-01-25T13:51:41.031+0000)

but they are laners, they have to work for their cs, and have a much higher chance to miss out on farm,stacks. where as in the jungle, not eve camp is being killed by another camp, while you have an enemy killing you. they work for the farm, are are rewarded for getting as much as possible. in the jungle, its just there, on set timers, 100% chance it's going to be there when the timer reaches 0 for that camp. you don't work for it, its there and waiting for you.

So you are saying that Jungler does not have to actually kill the jungle camp to get experience like laners don't have to kill minions to get experience, nice doublespeak you got going there.

Critmaster GarenJan 24, 20199 votes

literally all we laners wanted was riot to just slightly decrease jungle gold/xp per camp and increase the spawn rates to compensate, so junglers need to spend a bit more time to farm and less time ganking.

i honestly want to know where theyre going with this.

BestPudgeNAJan 24, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vPEVLgw,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-24T11:37:46.866+0000)

literally all we laners wanted was riot to just slightly decrease jungle gold/xp per camp and increase the spawn rates to compensate, so junglers need to spend a bit more time to farm and less time ganking.

i honestly want to know where theyre going with this.

This would never work. Removing XP and Gold per camp incentives ganking, it doesn't matter if you add faster respawns or whatever if they aren't worth doing in the first place. Ganking pressure Junglers like Xin/Cam already leave half their camps up. If you want junglers to "gank less" you need to incentive late game carry/scaling potential.

Critmaster GarenJan 24, 20193 votes

{quoted}

This would never work. Removing XP and Gold per camp incentives ganking, it doesn't matter if you add faster respawns or whatever if they aren't worth doing in the first place.

it would mean you have too spend more time to farm camps to get the same xp and gold as before.

instead of farming one side of your jungle and then taking a full minute to camp a lane, youd have 30 seconds before you have to move on and resume farming, if you want to maintain an efficient clear and dont want to fall behind. that would be the idea.

only reducing jungle xp like theyre doing now hits all junglers, but it hits farming junglers unproportionally harder.

BestPudgeNAJan 24, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vPEVLgw,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2019-01-24T17:02:04.762+0000)

it would mean you have too spend more time to farm camps to get the same xp and gold as before.

instead of farming one side of your jungle and then taking a full minute to camp a lane, youd have 30 seconds before you have to move on and resume farming, if you dont want to fall behind. that would be the idea.

only reducing jungle xp like theyre doing now hits all junglers, but it hits farming junglers unproportionally harder.

No, it wouldn't that's not how pressure junglers work at all. You only need to do red, the rest of the camps are only done when you don't have a lane to gank or they give you large rewards for little effort crab/red/lots of catch up XP. Pressure junglers aren't about getting yourself ahead, they're about getting your lanes ahead.

Moonfall SaberJan 24, 20191 votes

This is the opposite of devourer

FemalesAreLesserJan 25, 20191 votes

i mean, im sure nobody likes having your jungler take his camps, half the enemies camps, then see the enemy come to your lane a level ahead of you (yes this is over-exaggerated, but that's cause in games, while playing as laner, or even jungle, it feels bad that when you clear your whole jungle, and your top lane helps clear blue side of the enemies, and they aren't put behind by any means in level sucks, its like, where did the effort i just put into counter jungling go)

Hypochondria9Jan 24, 20195 votes

I feel like Riot just wants me to play Kha Zix every game.

Wacky9Jan 24, 20195 votes

I shudder to think what this means for my boi Ivern

Just MonikhaJan 24, 20193 votes

And no way he get lvl 6 without getting killed once by an aids redbuff instagank jungler...

AlzonJan 24, 20193 votes

Powerfarmers were nerfed, true, but chain gankers were nerfed even harder. Camps give the same EXP at level 2 as they do at level 1. Someone who doesn’t kill them all twice will start to fall behind very quickly.

So, compared to gank fiesta junglers, powerfarmers are BETTER than they were before!

rawiazam1Jan 24, 20191 votes

except the fact that most probably the camps will respawn at level 3+

ProfirixJan 24, 20192 votes

Gankers still get fed just as easily as before, and most of their experience is coming from ganking lanes and 'taxing'. Nothing changed for early ganking junglers.

GFREEMENJan 25, 20193 votes

Jungle was not meant to be matching or ahead of a laner. Only close to Bot lane. Riot changed that and created this mess of Better jungler wins the game BS.

Junglers where meant to gank a lane and be lower level but because it was a 2v1 it would help the laner.

BUT Riot added shittons of Damage and Burst and now if the Junlger is under level the Enemy laner will just focus the jungler and trade 1 for 1 or get away or get a double. SO they had to up the junglers level and now ganks are almost 100% a kill if the jungler has any skill. Total BS.

You all are use to it being this shit that is not healthy to the game and will cry when its brought back down to where it should be.

Back in the day Junglers needed items to gank so you would not see a gank until 8-10m into a game if not more.

Now you see a gank as soon as 2m. Such BS.

PrinceOfStormsJan 26, 20192 votes

Jungle was not meant to be matching or ahead of a laner

Gee I love having to play a tank in the jungle while I'm the laners' bitch. Such amazing gameplay.

5050BSOct 24, 20191 votes

Jungle was meant to be the support for the two solo laners

Worst JG WinsOct 24, 20192 votes

https://www.twitch.tv/trick2g/clip/HilariousPolishedDurianGingerPower?filter=clips&range=24hr&sort=time

Clearly nothing wrong with the JG XP changes. Junglers being level 5 vs level 9 solo laners is totally balanced and well thought out design by Riot

UlyssesISRJan 24, 20191 votes

Good change.

Passive jungling is basically just backpacking on your teams success in lanes until late game. Why would any team want this is beyond me. It basically turns the game into a 4v5 as others have said before.

rawiazam1Jan 24, 20192 votes

not really. if done properly, passive jungling can be getting the jungler really ahead in the expense of map pressure.

less early game impact. more late impact

UlyssesISRJan 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

not really. if done properly, passive jungling can be getting the jungler really ahead in the expense of map pressure.

Laners don't need an ultra fed jungler. They need one that ganks the enemy players so they can advance their lanes. It's why monsters give buffs when killed, so the jungler can do this more efficiently.

less early game impact. more late impact

Yeah, piggybacking. Riding on the success of your teammates. And when those laners cannot press their lanes, unsurprisingly because of the lack of a junglers presence to tip the scales, the game is lost.

3TWarriorJan 25, 20191 votes

the reason monsters give buffs...is because the jungle position has so much power and impact on the game that their base stats tend to be crud and they rely on items and injured or overextended opponents to function

this is why you do not see warwick top lane or khazix or etc except in very rare circumstances by very experienced players...

PrinceOfStormsJan 25, 20191 votes

The same could be said about passive laning. Should we drop the nerf hammer on champions like Nasus or Veigar who play super passively until they have enough stacks to oneshot teams?

UlyssesISRJan 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The same could be said about passive laning. Should we drop the nerf hammer on champions like Nasus or Veigar who play super passively until they have enough stacks to oneshot teams?

There is a thin line between playing passively, and being forced back under your tower. One way or another it results in playing a game of "catch-up". So either that passive player pushes back hard enough to destroy the enemy tower. Or his/her tower falls before ever touching/doing real damage to the enemies tower. Iv seen passive play-styles flop hard, it's not guaranteed to work. It's all about who gets to the enemy nexus first, so naturally aggressive play-styles will have that edge.

ApexInTheCircleJan 25, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Good change.

Passive jungling is basically just backpacking on your teams success in lanes until late game. Why would any team want this is beyond me. It basically turns the game into a 4v5 as others have said before.

Just so we're all aware, you're basically saying you want to kill jungle diversity. Because that's how you kill jungle diversity. By making 4 or 5 champs viable because of the way people like you like it.

UlyssesISRJan 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Just so we're all aware, you're basically saying you want to kill jungle diversity. Because that's how you kill jungle diversity. By making 4 or 5 champs viable because of the way people like you like it.

What diversity? They are there to relieve pressure in lanes, in a game that is all about destroying the final objective first. Of course aggressive junglers will be favored. They make taking out the final objective a faster process when played aggressively. The longer it takes to reach that last goal, the more time you give the enemy team to turn things around. Which is not something you want in a meta with high damage. Where one second your team is winning, then losing suddenly because one team fight was lost.

If there were another way to win without destroying the nexus first, or making the enemy team forfeit. It would be a very different story.

BBKongOct 24, 20192 votes

{quoted}

What diversity? They are there to relieve pressure in lanes, in a game that is all about destroying the final objective first. Of course aggressive junglers will be favored. They make taking out the final objective a faster process when played aggressively. The longer it takes to reach that last goal, the more time you give the enemy team to turn things around. Which is not something you want in a meta with high damage. Where one second your team is winning, then losing suddenly because one team fight was lost.

If there were another way to win without destroying the nexus first, or making the enemy team forfeit. It would be a very different story.

The difference is though, we aren't saying "if you're a good aggressive jungler you should lose to a good passive jungler". We're saying that relying on counterganking instead of initiating ganks yourself, and farming unless you have to support or see an easy opportunity, is a jungle playstyle that's been in the game for years and they've been pushing it out more and more. If I'm playing Shyvana, who doesn't gank well until 6, yes someone like lee sin should get more pressure and be better if their ganks pay off.

HOWEVER, if I'm playing Shyvana and I want to get 6 as fast as possible, ganking only when necessary or to counter and save my team, making me get 6 slower is going to throw me even further behind and make the champion practically useless.

There's a difference between passive jungling and never ganking or supporting lanes at all and just AFK farming, which we aren't advocating for. Junglers that have to wait a little bit for their power spikes and aren't as strong ganking until then should have a place in the game, even if it's an aggressive jungle meta which is also fine. It just shouldn't be the only way to play the role.