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why is arguing a bad thing?

rawiazam1··46 votes·14,331 views

so i was looking at his post:https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/d3YBaO7f-look-at-this-2013-video-of-scarra-on-zed-9-1-1-with-317-farm-at-28-mins-lvl-18-vs-lvl-14-vayne

and the moderator locked it because it has "devolved into arguing.".

isn't that a good thing? especially when the matters that are being discussed touches alot of people. people are going to agree and defend this position, while others don't. it never reached offensive language so i don't know why it has been locked

38 Comments

ModThe Djinn22 votes

So this is a tricky bit of the English language. Arguing has two definitions:

Giving reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view.

And:

Exchanging or expressing diverging or opposite views, typically in a heated or angry way.

The former is amazing -- we encourage active, friendly, informed debate on the boards.

The latter is NOT amazing when it devolves into heated, angry conversation. That thread definitely did the latter. Here's a handful of quotes:

No need to get upset because your other comments were deleted xD

If I didn't know any better I would say its the same person using three different accounts. But I know you would never do that...

This is a classic case where you bring up literally any other topic to talk about, usually some sort of accusation against the other person in the discussion, because you know you've lost the discussion.

So no, I dont want to have a rational discussion with someone who is going to call me a dumb fuck moron and spam downvotes on multiple account to make it seem like more people agree with him. But hey, he acted somewhat calm on one of his accounts after he got temp banned on multiple others so go ahead and be baited into thinking he wants a rational discussion.

In effect, it was getting into personal attacks, accusations of multiple accounts, and calling out individual board members with accusations, none of which was relevant to the original discussion topic. That's not an acceptable sort of debate.


That said, I do agree that the lock message in this case wasn't as clear as it could be. I'll talk to the team about how we present lock messages going forward.

HungryAngry2SPP4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=x33gyE9U,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-09-21T14:32:56.622+0000)

That said, I do agree that the lock message in this case wasn't as clear as it could be. I'll talk to the team about how we present lock messages going forward.

You, as a team, should really work on this. Many problems a re couse becouse of this (...this)

FurriesAreHot10 votes

Can we all agree english has way too many fucking words that mean "2+ people discussing a topic"

MythPuppy6 votes

Team Gathering Court Meeting Round-table Forum Powwow Palaver Convention Conference and like 19 others that I don't wanna type Our language is designed solely to fuck over anyone who wasn't born speaking it

FurriesAreHot11 votes

"Hi, im english. I have 500 rules. For each rule, i have 500 exceptions. Fuck you."

PaladinNO2 votes

It's not easy when a single word can indeed have so many different meanings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eujTLnCSgJs

Papa Andrei1 votes

"Hi i'm English, I atleast have "the" as a word for conversations." LOOKING AT YOU SPANISH

PaladinNO5 votes

Our language is designed solely to fuck over anyone who wasn't born speaking it

Meanwhile, my Junior High School teacher told me 19 years ago I would get a lowered score in Oral English because I spoke with an American accent.

Got English as a second language, but I consider myself an almost SS-grade grammar nazi.

floo2 votes

Ever tried German? If not, don't.

EasternBladeStar1 votes

If you think English is difficult, I hope you haven't tried your luck with French.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

{quoted}

Team Gathering Court Meeting Round-table Forum Powwow Palaver Convention Conference and like 19 others that I don't wanna type Our language is designed solely to fuck over anyone who wasn't born speaking it

Yo dawg, you forgot the ever-important "fiesta".

deadlychuck1 votes

It would seem that it'd be more effective to simply remove the argument sub-thread rather than locking the overall thread. Think of it like pulling the two fighting kids away from each other.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}

It would seem that it'd be more effective to simply remove the argument sub-thread rather than locking the overall thread. Think of it like pulling the two fighting kids away from each other.

We do often do this, depending on the overall tone of the rest of the comments. Ultimately, however, it is up to the discretion of the moderator who addresses the thread which response is most appropriate. I do personally think that this one could have gone either way.

deadlychuck1 votes

I don't see how the exercised response would ever be appropriate. More so when, even your claim is that, it was locked due to the divergence from the original topic. How many hoops are required to jump through to go from divergent sub-discussion -> ??? -> lock the whole thread.

If y'all are gonna create a gameplay+ boards to isolate the moderators and the gameplay concerned community, implicitly or explicitly so, then at least respect the boundaries y'all wanted and created.

... even if it's a dead board...

ModThe Djinn2 votes

I don't see how the exercised response would ever be appropriate.

If we were all made of time to analyze and remove every individual post of longer chains, this is definitely true. We're a volunteer team though, and sometimes we have to take that into account. It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's sort of the one we have.

{quoted}More so when, even your claim is that, it was locked due to the divergence from the original topic.

No, my claim is that not only was it a divergent topic, but it was a divergent topic that became a bunch of fighting and insults and accusations. In short, not only was it heated, but it was pointlessly heated.

deadlychuck2 votes

Well presumably it wouldn't be possible to have become as you described, without leaving the original topic of discussion. Leaving the topic of discussion would've been a necessary criterion, in the case that it wasn't the original topic of the thread. While I understand which rule was eventually broken to warrant the action, it was a causal chain that could've been broken anywhere to remove the broken rule. Yet it was decided to be done at the first link of said, metaphorical, chain.

If we were all made of time to analyze and remove every individual post of longer chains, this is definitely true. We're a volunteer team though, and sometimes we have to take that into account. It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's sort of the one we have.

First, I've got a solution. Zilean

It's really not necessary though, I mean I know being mostly volunteer pretty much is, but... The moderation rules and methodology is completely elective and much is unnecessary. Here, I'll even make an itemized list for you. All of these things are not necessary for riot or the moderators and are moderation duties/circumstances that could be removed from the responsibilities of the moderation team ( duties which are evidently ineffective at curbing toxicity, if the community observation is anything to go by).

  • Disrespecting or insulting other community members
  • Spamming or Trolling (though spamming is generally easy to deal with automatically)
  • Inappropriate Discussion Topics
  • Account, Product, or Service Promotion
  • Gameplay & rank Shaming
  • Naming & Shaming
  • Pejorative Language
  • Evading Board Bans
  • Hate Speech
  • Threats
  • Encouragements to Self-Harm
  • Impersonation
  • Mature Content
  • Sharing Personal Information
  • Malicious or Illegal Content (This one combine with...)
  • Phishing or Scamming
  • Illegal Activities (...this one pretty much covers everything below threats though)
  • Advocating Violations of the Rules

Even with these rules, the overly broad methods are used to uphold them create more work for the moderation team long term (just look at the existence of this thread). If there was a comment/sub-thread from the OP post reported, then as moderators, you don't even need to find the comments to remove... simply briefly disconnecting the two, or multiple, players shouting at each other over their computers would likely result in the complete termination of communication between them. Consider this, most arguments are driven by the notification alert. If you look at most discussions (let alone most arguments), it's generally two people alternating in responses to the other. If you just recursively hide notifications in a particular sub-thread, you'd nearly never see arguments continue.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}All of these things are not necessary for riot or the moderators...

  • Disrespecting or insulting other community members
  • Spamming or Trolling (though spamming is generally easy to deal with automatically)
  • Inappropriate Discussion Topics
  • Gameplay & rank Shaming
  • Naming & Shaming
  • Pejorative Language
  • Evading Board Bans
  • Hate Speech
  • Impersonation
  • Advocating Violations of the Rules

I'm afraid we flatly disagree on these points, or we'd have removed them from the rules long ago.

deadlychuck1 votes

Obviously you feel that those are things that the moderators should be responsible for removing. That wasn't ever a question. The point is that these things are not something that's necessary for the moderators to moderate from a practical prospective.

These things aren't illegal nor are many of them objectively defined, instead being left up to moderator subjective discretion. The result is that you end up creating substantially more work in attempting to moderate those listed behaviors under the predisposition that failing to remove them is going to lead to... well i'm not sure... less productive discussion? Chaos? Fighting? Not that it those don't still comprise the vast majority of the boards.

But at the end of the day, your disagreement on these points, and the methods used to enforce them being the same that are used to enforce those of the list that I didn't remove, is why people are frustrated with the boards mods and consider them to be authoritarians. Though most people are more dramatic and just say "nazis".

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}Obviously you feel that those are things that the moderators should be responsible for removing. That wasn't ever a question. The point is that these things are not something that's necessary for the moderators to moderate from a practical prospective.

Again, we disagree. Many of those things are the things the moderation team exists TO handle.

deadlychuck1 votes

Well yes, I understand that's what the League of Legends moderators currently exist to do, because that's basically the job description. That's undeniable.

The point is that the fact that that's what the LoL mods exist to do is a completely arbitrary and voluntary list of rules. Other moderators for other websites don't necessarily moderate those kinds of behaviors, and there isn't some kind of recourse that's taken against the moderators or the website for that difference in the list of moderated content. I'm not sure you understand the scope of what I'm saying. It's not that the (moderators) shouldn't moderate those things, it's that the role of the (moderation team) shouldn't be to moderate those things.

Which again, is why many people feel that the moderation team is over reaching and fling around the term "nazi mods". Most moderation work involves moderation of particular kinds of content for the sake of protecting players and the website. Where as the rules that I crossed out involve moderating player behavior offensively, rather than forum/board content defensively.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}I'm not sure you understand the scope of what I'm saying. It's not that the (moderators) shouldn't moderate those things, it's that the role of the (moderation team) shouldn't be to moderate those things.

I get that. I'm saying that we (and Riot) disagree. Moderating those things is part of why our team exists.

deadlychuck1 votes

Guess, it's just a matter of waiting for the next paradigm shift then.

AirKingNeo1 votes

So no, I dont want to have a rational discussion with someone who is going to call me a dumb fuck moron and spam downvotes on multiple account to make it seem like more people agree with him. But hey, he acted somewhat calm on one of his accounts after he got temp banned on multiple others so go ahead and be baited into thinking he wants a rational discussion.

Sounds like a counter-argument to me. The guy harassing him asked why he didn't want rational discussion (in all irony), and that's his response. Perfectly fair.

xxx6Wizard9xxx1 votes

offtopic*

Can you add a off topic section where we can discuss things non-related to LoL? same as on EU

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

offtopic*

Can you add a off topic section where we can discuss things non-related to LoL? same as on EU

General Discussion exists to discuss both League-related things and non-League-related things!

Sona Ping7 votes

An unfortunate thing about this language is that arguing is used a few different ways in situations where many of them could fit. For instance, there's "presenting your reasoning and position on something in a discussion" like you wrote but people also use it to mean instead "mutually fighting and attacking other people with words". I didn't read the thread thoroughly, but it looks like it was locked for the latter reason; that the thread has "devolved into attacks against each other."

Fondling Gems4 votes

^Basically this

As a former Moderator there is a big difference between discussing and arguing. The former promotes discussion, the latter discourages it.

(Which isn't to say that arguing can't encourage discussion, but the English language is a bitch.)

Shukr4n5 votes

Maybe some fresh mods needed to test his new board powers.

Ahpe4 votes

Go and read the comments on that thread. Using offensive language isn't the only thing that's makes an argument. People started to attack each other personally while neglecting the actual topic.

Hong Kong Annie2 votes

{quoted}

Go and read the comments on that thread. Using offensive language isn't the only thing that's makes an argument. People started to attack each other personally while neglecting the actual topic.

Then those comments should be deleted and the accounts temped banned. The topic itself brought up some good points and should be left open.

Ahpe1 votes

You're right about it being a good discussion but at this point you should ask a moderator on why they couldnt just do that

Boulderox2 votes

classic internet nowadays

  1. Strong point with evidence
  2. Counterpoints
  3. Counter counter points'
  4. Repeat steps 1-3 until...
  5. Somewhere a slip occurs that is taken as a personal attack
  6. Divulges into a petty grade school name calling fight :/ nothing gets done...

rinse repeat

Unstoppable Monk2 votes

Also:

  1. "World is flat."
  2. No, the world is not flat and you don't know anything about the world pls stop.
  3. "I DEMAND EVIDENCE."
  4. I'm not going to explain a bunch of shit that is a waste of time for me , look it up on youtubes or whatever.
  5. "Mods pls halp SCREEE"
Eleshakai1 votes

My general viewpoint is that it's a difference between debate and argument.

Debate is constructive - people sharing ideas that just happen to differ. They attack each others' points to help either strengthen their own points or to force the other person to reinforce the point using additional data, facts, or evidence.

An argument tends to be most destructive. People attacking the other PERSON trying to destroy their credibility or distract from the issue by devolving into insults or the like.

ZackTheWaffleMan1 votes

Because ad hominem attacks are bad

PaffWasTaken1 votes

Considering that the Gameplay boards exist almost exclusively to argue about the balance of the game, this confused me too

Noor Sakata1 votes

That thread was full of downvotes against everyone who said the title is misleading and Zed didn't hit aa or e , he only hit double q that hit a minion first many angry replies followed that , I guess thats the reason

LatetotheRace1 votes

Remove mod status...

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