Shen's Q will have 1 hp regen for 3 seconds

KONO RUBICK DA·Aug 21, 2015·53 votes·2,855 views

how usefull

45 Comments

Ahura Mazda PiAug 21, 201510 votes

The heal scales with 1.5% of his maximum healt.

CastmanAug 21, 201531 votes

How useful

Rew711Aug 22, 20152 votes

or maybe he can kill it and get 2 HP back

SettDownShutUpAug 22, 20153 votes

He brings up a good point. The skill activately punishes for last hitting. A health ratio on his Q on kill seems only fair.

Rew711Aug 23, 20152 votes

It's just, as a Tank with no damage on his ultimate, his abilities seem to deal both no damage and give little reward.

He has no wave clear. A bonus damage passive that's his only tank on him. A Q that scales like his W. His Q gives back 6/10/14/18/22 over 3 seconds. If I were to divide each by 3, it gives more each level up per second than if I were to kill a minion except for levels 3 and 4 (receiving 2/3/5/6/7 so the skip from 4 is just a means to be "helpful"). His Q should honestly just raise the health regen by 4/5/6/7/8 (+0.5% max health) for 3 seconds and if he kills a minion, he automatically gets 13/17/21/25/29 (+1.6/1.7/1.8/1.9/2% of maximum health). This is a Tank ability. His W should get a small change in how the passive works; it should automatically give him his passive when he activates it. So, he can come in, deal passive damage, and then W for another passive damage, but I think it might also restart his attack when doing it... because I'm not sure if its possible to just have it activate without a small moment stoping him in-between.

MelledoneusAug 23, 20151 votes

Or maybe his W's Ki Strike cooldown reduction be a passive rather than an active. That way, I don't need to shield if I want to push a wave faster.

He does have strengths, though. His shield and Q (no matter how bad the scalings) help him win extended trades. He has a skillshot dash that can damage and taunt multiple enemies, ideal for dueling and stopping carries from wrecking your team. His ultimate works as a "get off my carry, let me handle this from the other side of the map" card, and his passive gives him pretty good damage against squishies especially while building tanky. His Q can be used for poke, and the only portion of his kit that lacks in reward is his heal. Other than that, besides an awkward W, he's in a good spot.

Rew711Aug 23, 20151 votes

So instead of active giving a bonus, it should now give +0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5 reduction per strike.

Meeks011Aug 22, 20157 votes

That's over 3 seconds so it's actually 0.5% of his max health per second. So 0.005*600 base HP is 3. How fucking useful when Xin, Irelia, and Elise heal for like 10 or so HP per hit. It only takes 3 minutes to regen to full health using Skuttle.

DurzakaAug 23, 20151 votes

Irelia heals for 5 per hit. And it scales worth shit throughout the game. It is only 10 if she activates her W, which pushes like nobodies business.

Xin does technically heal for 10 per hit. But it is every third hit, meaning it is more burst than sustain. if he wants the true sustain he needs to push like a made man as well.

Elise heals 4 hp per hit, which again scales terrible.

The difference is none of these are tanks.

What is important here is effective health. Since Shen builts straight tank, his effective health is always going to be higher than any of those champions, meaning while his heal might be smaller, because of his resistances, it is actually more effective health. AND it scales with his max health, which is an excellent stat for a tank to have.

Can we also not forget that Shen also heals his allies when they attack the marked target?

MelledoneusAug 23, 20151 votes

Shen has much less effective health than what he lacks in maximum health. Jayce and Fiora, to name just two, are "squishy, high-damage fighters" able to duel and harass with high-damage abilities and combos. Both with higher base health and health growth than Shen. Who is a tank.

I know the main argument is "But Shen builds tank anyway, and they need durability." No, they don't. If you want to make a damage champion tankier than a tank, fine. But don't even talk about effective health compared to other top laners when true health is an issue.

Also, sure. Shen can heal his allies. The numbers are tiny when the heal could be remotely useful and is theoretically a team heal. On paper. Good luck finding a 1000+ HP entity for your team to mooch off of that doesn't deal at least twice that damage back. Or jukes you for days.

Shen's heal sounds great on paper. So does an ADC who can debuff and target champions with rapid fire spells to shred their opponents to oblivion while being able to shield themselves, slow their opponents, and even switch places with them while receiving an armor/magic resist buff. But Urgot's winrate is the lowest in LoL. So, yes. Power on paper sounds great. But it's never that simple.

DurzakaAug 23, 20151 votes

Base health and scaling health are not the only ways to calculate effective health.

What matters is what you build. Higher defenses = each point of hp is worth more.

You mention the number is too small. ALL of the numbers we are talking about are small. That is irrelevant.

MelledoneusAug 23, 20151 votes

Compare Shen's base armor and MR to other top laners. The difference is tiny, while Jayce and Fiora have a ~100 hp surplus compared to Shen. I can build Jayce and Fiora tank and they would be on par with Shen, a REAL tank, because they have utility and mobility to help them peel for carries or lock them down. And they'd be tankier while doing it.

Don't argue that building tank justifies it. I can literally build tank on anybody, and then your whole point about effective health will be null and void.

DurzakaAug 23, 20151 votes

You can literally build tank on anyone. Just like you can literally build full damage on anyone.

That doesnt void the argument. Build paths ARE important when you talk about a champions balance.

ZephyrDrakeAug 22, 20158 votes

most of his healing comes from his 1.5% max HP scaling so the Q nerfs are more of a love tap than anything

KONO RUBICK DAAug 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

most of his healing comes from his 1.5% max HP scaling so the Q nerfs are more of a love tap than anything

increase the max hp scaling as a compensation for his late game

ZephyrDrakeAug 22, 20155 votes

{quoted}

increase the max hp scaling as a compensation for his late game

why? compensation to the 7 less heal you will have late game? your 1.5% max HP scaling already gives you a higher healing than the base does. He does not need an increase to his scaling to compensate the 3 less heal at rank 1 and the 7 less heal at max rank

MelledoneusAug 22, 20151 votes

Yes, but as a tank being susceptible to being poked out of lane, Shen needs sustain. 3 hp per second (That's with scalings, by the way) doesn't cut it. You can chug a health potion while you're afflicted with grievous wounds and ignite and get more health back than your passive. Seriously, it's useless. It either needs to get buffed or that power needs to put somewhere else.

ZephyrDrakeAug 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but as a tank being susceptible to being poked out of lane, Shen needs sustain. 3 hp per second (That's with scalings, by the way) doesn't cut it. You can chug a health potion while you're afflicted with grievous wounds and ignite and get more health back than your passive. Seriously, it's useless. It either needs to get buffed or that power needs to put somewhere else.

it's not useless, and it does not need to be buffed in the slightest. "3 hp per second" until he gets one health item and then it's not and just gets better. You really cannot compare the heal of his Q to a heath pot since it's supposed to give you more health early. The tankier Shen gets the more he will heal back. Shen isn't supposed to be a Mundo type champion that has stupid amounts of sustain, the sustain he has is more than enough and item 3065 which is fairly common on him had it's health regen buffed which helps him a lot. He isn't losing much and it's easily gotten back. This isn't going to be anywhere near close to make him weak or unviable

MelledoneusAug 22, 20154 votes

Please do the math. The maximum health regen per second is 6, and that involves going up to a target, pressing Q, and auto attacking it. It's slow, it's hard to do against melee fighters and ranged auto attackers alike, and it's highly inefficient. I agree, Shen isn't Mundo or Aatrox. He's not meant to sustain everything back. However, why even have a heal if it gives you unnoticeable amounts of health back? 18 health is horrible for a spell and an auto attack, not to mention it's getting nerfed.

Never did I say that Shen is going to be weak or unviable after this change. Check my post again if you don't believe me. However, I'm simply questioning why the heal is there if it's so little. I assumed it was to help him stay in lane, but apparently, according to this change, it's for laughs. "Shen has 1 hp per second for 3 seconds. That's hilarious." As shown by the OP's remarks, this is so bad it's humorous. Maybe kits are taking a turn for the funny?

I highly disagree with your statement that the sustain he has is more than enough. I already threw the numbers, but you apparently want more proof. So, I'm going to take the most extreme scenario and say Shen is against a Karthus top. Karthus has the lowest auto attack damage in the game (Orianna has a passive that enhances autos, so she technically doesn't exist in this scenario). 45.66 AD at base. Doing the calculations, Shen's base armor is 25.72, meaning he has approximately 20% reduction of incoming AD.

45.66 X 0.8= 36.528.

Shen takes 36.528 damage per Karthus auto. Meaning that it takes 2 auto attacks of Q in order to heal it up. This essentially takes two minions, or a scenario in which you take minion aggro, since it takes 3 seconds to get the full health. Now let's see a more representative example: Maokai . A fellow tank with 63.544 AD.

63.544 X 0.8= 50.8352

Meaning that it takes 3 Q procs with the full heal (which takes a while) to heal back one auto attack from Maokai.

What is my point in throwing these numbers? To prove that Shen's sustain is not as strong as you think it is.

However, you mentioned that Shen's healing only gets better. This, I agree with you. But it's not as much as you think.

Let's give Shen a Spirit Visage at level 11. He's having a good day against a Vlad top, which doesn't happen in real life.

Shen has 1820.8 maximum health. His Q is assumed to be maxed out.

22+ .015(1820.8)= 49.312 Now with item 3065 : 49.312(1.2)= 59.1744

Boy, that heal is extremely strong. But I'm not done. Let's give Shen a full build of item 3102 item 3143 item 3065 item 3083 item 3742 item 3190 . A viable build that maximizes HP at level 18. With locket for HP instead of frozen heart for armor. Just because.

That's a grand total of 4616 HP.

22+.015(4616)=91.24 Now with item 3065 : 91.24(1.2)=109.488

109.488 maximum heal at the end of the game. When that amount of health is being dealt in AoE critical strikes tenfold by the enemy Jinx. That's less than rank 3 of Nidalee's heal!!! Less than rank 4 of Sona's heal, whom people complain about having a weak heal.

Still not convinced? Zac has a passive that lets him heal from blobs. It requires only 2737.2 HP for Zac to get that heal from one ability, and that's an AoE collision to get a heal rather than an auto attack and 3 seconds.

I'm not even going to get started on Maokai, either.

My point is, that Shen's heal is underwhelming, and only finds some strength later on in the game. But let's remember that at that point, it's relatively unnoticable. 100 more HP in the thick of a fight might as well be 1 HP. It's just half an enemy ADC auto. So, please. Before you start telling me "the sustain he has is more than enough"when it's clearly useless relative to his role. Stop trying to justify nerfs to Shen's already terrible heal.

Rinky DinkyAug 23, 20151 votes

Shen getting poked out of lane?

LOL

MelledoneusAug 23, 20151 votes

Play against a Vlad. Or a Jayce. Hell, play against Nasus. You'll be crying unless they are just that bad.

GorgannanAug 22, 20156 votes

They're reworking his Q, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

MelledoneusAug 22, 20151 votes

I hope. It feels horrible if you rely on it to sustain you through the game.

Silents429Aug 22, 20155 votes

As a Shen main these nerfs change nothing at all.

Meep ManAug 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As a Shen main these nerfs change nothing at all.

Yeah. Not too much. I mean, before it was 2 instead of 1.

MelledoneusAug 22, 20151 votes

Yeah, I guess, but the heal was already bad before. It's not about the numbers, it's about nerfing an already underpowered heal. I mean, Riot. Why would you even think about nerfing the heal when you could buff it for a bit and see if that helps?

-A fellow Shen main

Silents429Aug 23, 20151 votes

Considering the scaling off of his max HP and all, it's pretty decent for a tank to have.

MelledoneusAug 23, 20151 votes

I guess. It just kind of perplexes me as to where his heal is supposed to be useful. Early game, it's negligible. Mid game, it's terribly weak. Late game, it's just not large enough to be noticeable during the times you need it the most.

The only scenario I can think that Shen's heal will be useful is mid-late game if he gets REALLY ahead. Even then, mostly in a 1v1 scenario. Although I guess it's for the better. I heard it used to give him more sustain than Aatrox's Blood Thirst.

ElJanitorFrankAug 22, 20154 votes

Just got done with a Garen game.

By the end, I had 287.4 hp regend per 5.

Of course, Garen and Shen fit different roles and have different strengths/weaknesses, I just thought it's funny at how poor Shen's sustain is in comparison to Garen's perma Mundo ult.

Blazing TenshiAug 22, 20151 votes

Why no warmogs? 1k hp/5

ElJanitorFrankAug 22, 20151 votes

I did have warmogs.... That's why my regen was ridiculously high.

MelledoneusAug 23, 20151 votes

Whenever I play Garen in ARAM, my strategy is to run into the middle of their team, deal some damage, then run back out with like 100 HP. Then, I proceed to walk behind turret, concentrate very hard as I press Crtl+3. They say Garen's regen becomes uninterruptible during this time.

Phuc Dat BichAug 22, 20154 votes

Guys Guys the worlds are near and riot dosent want ANYONE to even consider play shen!! Shen cant make Big plays So they make sure they make him useless so nobody would play him!!

Because its so fun to see in lcs/worlds the same PICKS Maokai/Gnar

But wait there is more Maokai gets nerfed too (That good) so what that mean? no more tanks for worlds

Now only Gnar would be picked for LCS and Lulu

Because much fun such good very balance.....

But Hey gnar can make the Big plays with his ulti the crow may scream "OHHH 5 man ulti" but shen no no no no this mofo make the worlds of r 2013 boring we dont want that again and here in riot we make it sure!!

F@ck riot Only ARAMs

I mean look at them all the new project skins champions they get buffed

Riven that every single person that plays league ask for her to be nerfed he remain with 0 nerfs because a new skin come out

Its just bullshits....

OyddAWqJ5rAug 22, 20151 votes

Lmao this post is a jumbled mess of inaudible gibberish

MelledoneusAug 22, 20151 votes

Um... I like to read sentences. Please use more punctuation so I can stop putting so much pressure on my eyes trying to read that.

Meeks011Aug 22, 20154 votes

Why the fuck is he getting nerfed. I haven't seen him in a while and there are so many toxic champions about.

MelledoneusAug 22, 20154 votes

I agree. While they are only PBE changes and not confirmed to come to live, it's absurd if Riot considers even nerfing it. Shen's heal is, on paper, a little useful. "Q minions and let your team get free regen" sounds pretty strong and useful. However, let's remember that minions die pretty darn quickly, so the most you'll get is one or two autos before the minion dies. In reality, Shen's heal is pretty weak and is only noticeable after a tank build and/or a Spirit Visage. Early on, the heal helps to take the edge off of poke, but only if the other laner is melee. Once he uses his dash, Shen has nothing, and very prone to getting kited. Nerfing his heal will only make him weaker theoretically, as it's his only way to survive against lane bullies like Darius or Renekton. I've played a lot of Shen (he's my best ranked jungler and top laner), and I have much experience with him. I would rather the Q give either a slightly larger scaling on his HP as to make his mid game a little more bearable, or to change the mechanic to something like lifesteal on a Q mark (although that'd be pretty OP considering his passive does plenty of damage with a tank build).

In general, Shen needs that rework, and I hope it isn't something that takes away his tankiness or his identity as a ninja. I think his Q and W could use the most work, and I trust Meddler to make Shen the tanky ninja we all know and love a little better and more fun to play.

Zone of EndlessAug 22, 20153 votes

Isn't the nerf for Shen's Q for when he last hit minions with it?

Because for those that don't play this game, he heals a flat amount of HP when last hitting minions/enemy with Q.

MelledoneusAug 22, 20153 votes

Technically, it's a nerf for his Q sustain in general. Shen heals for a second's worth of his Q regen (Which is 2.855 at level 1) if he kills a minion with it. He gets 3 times that amount if he Q's then auto attacks a target with the mark.

Meanwhile, Irelia with a PASSIVE on her W heals for 5 health per auto. Did I also mention she can double the healing and get true damage with it? Irelias usually start Doran's Blade or Flask, so she has even more sustain to begin with. And she's a FIGHTER, prone to dealing tons of damage in skirmishes. She is the goddess of diving carries with the highest possible tenacity in the game at 91%. Of course, this isn't season 2, so I'm not asking for Riot to nerf Irelia.

Let's not forget Nasus, who has 10% lifesteal because why not? A crippling slow, an infinitely stacking Q, an armor-shredding AoE DoT (I admit, the DoT isn't much, but it's noticeable if you wait long enough) and an ultimate that makes him super tanky and strong. Yes, I admit, Nasus isn't the most played in the LCS, but that's because he doesn't bring much to a team fight because he is prone to getting kited. His lanes become oppressive even before 100 stacks for those who can't out damage and sustain through his damage.

So yes, Riot. Let's nerf the 2.855 hp per second heal on Shen, because he's obviously so toxic and oppressive in lane with that insane sustain that he needs to be nerfed to the ground.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Technically, it's a nerf for his Q sustain in general. Shen heals for a second's worth of his Q regen (Which is 2.855 at level 1) if he kills a minion with it. He gets 3 times that amount if he Q's then auto attacks a target with the mark.

Meanwhile, Irelia with a PASSIVE on her W heals for 5 health per auto. Did I also mention she can double the healing and get true damage with it? Irelias usually start Doran's Blade or Flask, so she has even more sustain to begin with. And she's a FIGHTER, prone to dealing tons of damage in skirmishes. She is the goddess of diving carries with the highest possible tenacity in the game at 91%. Of course, this isn't season 2, so I'm not asking for Riot to nerf Irelia.

Let's not forget Nasus, who has 10% lifesteal because why not? A crippling slow, an infinitely stacking Q, an armor-shredding AoE DoT (I admit, the DoT isn't much, but it's noticeable if you wait long enough) and an ultimate that makes him super tanky and strong. Yes, I admit, Nasus isn't the most played in the LCS, but that's because he doesn't bring much to a team fight because he is prone to getting kited. His lanes become oppressive even before 100 stacks for those who can't out damage and sustain through his damage.

So yes, Riot. Let's nerf the 2.855 hp per second heal on Shen, because he's obviously so toxic and oppressive in lane with that insane sustain that he needs to be nerfed to the ground.

shen in general is weak, in lcs they are taking him as a support. Maybe shen got strong with new items, but his heal is still bad and shouldn't be nerfed.

MelledoneusAug 23, 20151 votes

That, sir, is a very fine observation. But before you and I take up our pitchforks and torches, it's PBE. It's like the explosive test lab for Riot to try out new things. Like Mordekaiser bot lane. And that Warwick rework we were promised and never saw happen.

But I wouldn't call him weak. He's in a weird spot. He's a tank with little sustain who specializes in dueling and diving carries. And also shielding his own from anywhere on the map, able to join a team fight in several seconds.

JPLangleyAug 22, 20152 votes

[deleted]

MelledoneusAug 22, 20151 votes

Jungle Shen is rare, I don't know what you're talking about.

Personally, I'd replace "Jungle Shen" with "Devourer Yi." Yi is a monster right now.

JavazonAug 23, 20151 votes

Yea it sounds hilariously bad but over-all shen's Q regen is a great tool. I'm sure it will continue to be decent. And as always, the more health you buy the more it heals. Still, shen doesn't seem like he's in an oppressive spot or anything. I'm surprised he's getting hit with nerfs. He's not a lane winner and I think his teamfight is lackluster beyond saving a m8 and getting a good E off. Doing so pretty much spends everything he has in a fight. Other top champions certainly have a better teamfight. I think Riot is just scared of him dominating in Competitive toplane with his ults for those plays.