I think by making ADC very overpowered you are making them the most stressful role of all

taleofsonata·Dec 8, 2017·48 votes·1,788 views

In a Meta that determine which bottom lane is better, most of the time an ADC that lose their lane gets flamed very hard. It's a stressful role as every single mistakes you make counts toward the failure of the game. Can this get fixed? By making other roles like top and mid more impactful and Nerf Jungler Ganking and roaming to bottom lane?

If you have a 0/9 Darius and a 0/9 Xayah, most of the time people rather flame Ashe and call her you are the carry role. Darius can lose early game but he can catch up because at least he is still useful, he brings utility and still do a decent amount of damage with no items.

37 Comments

Z3SleeperDec 9, 201716 votes

{quoted}

If you have a 0/9 Darius and a 0/9 Xayah, most of the time people rather flame Ashe and call her you are the carry role.

Man, sucks to be Ashe. Gets flamed even when she's not in the game.

SEKAIDec 9, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Man, sucks to be Ashe. Gets flamed even when she's not in the game.

Better flame Ashe.

CLusDec 8, 20176 votes

I mean, adc's scale so hard they will always have the potential to be a high impact role in a game even when they aren't perceived as particularly strong in any given meta. This is just the nature of the way damage and ranged auto attacks work in this style of game. This is not unique to League. There are some moba's that can make melee hyper carries work, but League seems to have never successfully had a melee hyper carry that was deemed to have a healthy game play pattern (yasuo and fiora were notable attempts and we all know how that went).

Teridax68Dec 9, 20172 votes

This isn't entirely accurate, or at least not anymore. In Dota/Dota 2, carries are typically autoattack-based, but always included both melee and ranged heroes, and more recently also includes caster characters. Smite has damage-based carries of all ranges and types, many of which would be described as fighters in League. In HotS, most of the strongest/hardest-scaling characters in the game aren't autoattack-based at all, and many are melee. Even if the MOBA genre used to be fixated on autoattacks, it isn't anymore, and other games have shown many ways of evolving past that. In this respect, League's fixation on ranged autoattack-based damage dealers is unique to the game.

Hyrum GraffDec 9, 20171 votes

Dota has turn speed. Smite aa's are skillshots. HotS has teamwide level scaling and talents instead of items.

Your examples certainly prove that mobas can make marksmen viable but not mandatory. However, they do not prove this is possible League, at least not without changing some fundamental principles.

I have tried to get into dota and hots and those two things in particular are not enjoyable to me. I've not tried smite, but having to turn the camera to look behind you is one of my least favorite things about FPSs (it is still possible to have skillshot aa's + top down camera, so this doesn't eliminate the mechanic, just smite's particular implementation).

Not saying it cannot be done, or even that it should not be done[1], just that hyper-scaling, mandatory-if-viable marksmen are baked into League's structure at a pretty fundamental level; it's not as trivial as "those games do it, so we can, too."

[1]: personally, I think crit spells would be a much healthier mechanic than crit aa's (tldr, because spells are more more varied), although I'm not sure if it would be possible to do that in League without making it a different game.

Teridax68Dec 9, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T19:11:00.380+0000)

Your examples certainly prove that mobas can make marksmen viable but not mandatory. However, they do not prove this is possible League, at least not without changing some fundamental principles.

Which is why I specified that League's marksman problem is unique to League. The point made by the person I was responding to was that ranged autoattackers had special status across the entire MOBA genre, which as I pointed out is demonstrably incorrect. I can happily talk about why I think marksmen in League are in the state they're currently in, and how that can change, but that's a different discussion.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T19:11:00.380+0000)

Not saying it cannot be done, or even that it should not be done[1], just that hyper-scaling, mandatory-if-viable marksmen are baked into League's structure at a pretty fundamental level; it's not as trivial as "those games do it, so we can, too."

I don't personally think so, and in fact I think this mostly stems from habituation at marksmen being mandatory to League's team compositions, rather than any structural or other fundamental aspect of the game. Just this year we got a glimpse of a possible world where marksmen are no longer mandatory, with the appearance of Ziggs in bot lane, and the only reason that ended wasn't because the metagame naturally moved past it, but because marksmen were aggressively buffed to maintain hegemony there. It really isn't a case of marksmen being somehow necessary to League, as it is a case of them having received so much power over time, and having so many secondary systems built upon them (the near-totality of the Enchanter subclass, for example), that it feels like they're necessary for the game to function.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T19:11:00.380+0000)

[1]: personally, I think crit spells would be a much healthier mechanic than crit aa's (tldr, because spells are more more varied), although I'm not sure if it would be possible to do that in League without making it a different game.

I personally disagree completely: crit as a random mechanic feels more frustrating the wider the power differences it creates. It has remained somewhat acceptable on autoattacks, because autoattacks are individually meant to be weaker than spells in their damage application (this has changed over time, and I don't think crit is acceptable in any case, but this is the premise), and because they can be applied in rapid sequence, so pseudorandom AA crits tend to average out pretty quickly. Damaging spells, by contrast, are already meant to be individually strong as a baseline, and their variance comes from landing them or satisfying some other condition for their full application, so giving them the chance of dealing significantly more damage at random is likely to cause immense frustration and feelings of unfairness in a competitive game format. When Riot tested out a possible change this year which allowed Jinx's W to crit on the PBE, for example, they retracted it soon after, precisely for this reason. Again, the fact that this has happened shows that changes like these can happen without turning League into a different game, though not all of these changes are necessarily good for the game.

Hyrum GraffDec 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Which is why I specified that League's marksman problem is unique to League. The point made by the person I was responding to was that ranged autoattackers had special status across the entire MOBA genre, which as I pointed out is demonstrably incorrect. I can happily talk about why I think marksmen in League are in the state they're currently in, and how that can change, but that's a different discussion.

I'm having a really hard time responding to this because I'm on mobile and this conversation is specific and nuanced enough that it is hard to be clear, brief, and coherent. After spending far too long trying, I decided to give up on that last bit, and not try to relate string my points to one another. To be clear, they are all very related, but writing it that way would take me all day.

What do we mean by, "this style of game"?

You seem to mean mobas.
So does the person you replied to, but they also acknowledge that melee carries can work in other mobas but not league, which directly contradicts that. I picked up more on the latter bit than the earlier point, so I (¿mis?)understood your comment to imply that "therefore, it's possible for adcs in league to be relevant but not mandatory", which I think is probably untrue.
I am inclined to interpret it a bit more narrowly; although smite is technically a moba, the camera controls make it feel very different to me -- more mechanical, less strategic.

I don't personally think so, and in fact I think this mostly stems from habituation at marksmen being mandatory to League's team compositions, rather than any structural or other fundamental aspect of the game. Just this year we got a glimpse of a possible world where marksmen are no longer mandatory, with the appearance of Ziggs in bot lane, and the only reason that ended wasn't because the metagame naturally moved past it, but because marksmen were aggressively buffed to maintain hegemony there. It really isn't a case of marksmen being somehow necessary to League, as it is a case of them having received so much power over time, and having so many secondary systems built upon them (the near-totality of the Enchanter subclass, for example), that it feels like they're necessary for the game to function.

I'm not sure in league to make adc optional, without making them absolutely unfun to play. Case in point: ziggs bot happened at the same time when people said "adc in 2k17" seriously.

This relates to the thing above because, at what point do you say, "you made marksmen fun and optional, but that game isn't league any more."? So yeah, other mobas can do it, but that doesn't mean league can.

Marksmen hyper-scale because crit gives them an extra level of multiplicative scaling. However, it doesn't have to be this way. For example, I'm pretty sure that hots marksmen don't have hyper-scaling damage. However, I think this change would be so disruptive to marksman players that, practically, will never happen. Maybe in a "league 2.0". This part is what ties together the three different things in this comment.

I personally disagree completely: crit as a random mechanic feels more frustrating the wider the power differences it creates. It has remained somewhat acceptable on autoattacks, because autoattacks are individually meant to be weaker than spells in their damage application (this has changed over time, and I don't think crit is acceptable in any case, but this is the premise), and because they can be applied in rapid sequence, so pseudorandom AA crits tend to average out pretty quickly. Damaging spells, by contrast, are already meant to be individually strong as a baseline, and their variance comes from landing them or satisfying some other condition for their full application, so giving them the chance of dealing significantly more damage at random is likely to cause immense frustration and feelings of unfairness in a competitive game format. When Riot tested out a possible change this year which allowed Jinx's W to crit on the PBE, for example, they retracted it soon after, precisely for this reason. Again, the fact that this has happened shows that changes like these can happen without turning League into a different game, though not all of these changes are necessarily good for the game.

That was the half sentence version, not full analysis. I'm not prepared to do the full thing now but here's a good short summary.

Ranged, targeted, infinite, highest dps, essentially 0 downtime => best in teamfights (because tanks), fastest objective takers, & good at seiging. Scales with gold more than levels => great duo laner. If you want optional adcs, something has to give.

By crit I meant another form of (hyper-)scaling, not the pRNG we have today. That might mean a % damage increase (like Ashe) or %arpen on crits or even utility scaling (also like Ashe, lol). This mostly can't work on adcs because of how reliable aa's are; riot has tried it internally and it makes adc vs adc matchups insanely snowbally. Spells already have more variance and longer cooldowns, so you have opportunities to win fights from behind, so they don't need rng tacked on to their scaling.

Before writing this, I thought it's impossible to make adcs optional because removing crit-level scaling from adcs is too disruptive. Now I'm thinking you might not have to, if you give spells crit scaling, too (plus put crit on ap items).

I need to get back to my hellish finals week, maybe no reply for a couple days.

Teridax68Dec 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T02:15:37.351+0000)

What do we mean by, "this style of game"?

You seem to mean mobas.

So does the person you replied to, but they also acknowledge that melee carries can work in other mobas but not league, which directly contradicts that.

The exact part of their paragraph was "This is just the nature of the way damage and ranged auto attacks work in this style of game." By this I take it they assume that the combination of autoattacks and range makes champions specializing in them essential to teams in MOBAS. Their other quote, which you picked up on, was "There are some moba's that can make melee hyper carries work," implying that the ability for melee caries to function is something that has to be deliberately worked upon, rather than a feature innate to the MOBA genre.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T02:15:37.351+0000)

I picked up more on the latter bit than the earlier point, so I (¿mis?)understood your comment to imply that "therefore, it's possible for adcs in league to be relevant but not mandatory", which I think is probably untrue.

Those are two separate statements. My direct response was that the status of marksmen in League is unique to League, not a problem endemic to the genre. My follow-up, however, is that the status of marksmen in League is also not one based on systems that cannot be changed -- because these systems can be improved, marksmen can become not mandatory, and even without these changes, we're not actually that far away from an environment where marksmen are non-essential, though still valuable.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T02:15:37.351+0000)

I am inclined to interpret it a bit more narrowly; although smite is technically a moba, the camera controls make it feel very different to me -- more mechanical, less strategic.

Mentioning the differences between individual MOBAs does not automatically make those differences relevant to the question of marksmen. In Smite's case, the fact that it is more mechanical and less strategic would likely make marksmen even more mandatory, as marksmen are a class that are more mechanically than strategically intensive. That is, however, not the case.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T02:15:37.351+0000)

I'm not sure in league to make adc optional, without making them absolutely unfun to play. Case in point: ziggs bot happened at the same time when people said "adc in 2k17" seriously.

"ADC in 2k17" was a notorious overreaction from people who felt their class was threatened. Marksmen were still largely essential, the problem just was that marksmen died more quickly if they got caught. The buffs that resulted made them even less fun to play against for everyone else. If there is one takeaway to be had from that period, it is to not give too much damage to champions not meant to deal damage, in this case tanks (a problem that persists to this day).

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T02:15:37.351+0000)

This relates to the thing above because, at what point do you say, "you made marksmen fun and optional, but that game isn't league any more."? So yeah, other mobas can do it, but that doesn't mean league can.

Again, games that featured Ziggs bot were still League, and they were still fun. In fact, many people praised the possibility of a non-marksman in the bot lane carry position, because it would've added immensely more diversity to the game. Similarly, while Mordekaiser bot was largely criticized due to how badly designed his kit was/is, many players were favorable to the idea of having some non-marksman carry. League can have games where marksmen aren't essential because we've already had them, and so without even really deep changes.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T02:15:37.351+0000)

Marksmen hyper-scale because crit gives them an extra level of multiplicative scaling. However, it doesn't have to be this way. For example, I'm pretty sure that hots marksmen don't have hyper-scaling damage. However, I think this change would be so disruptive to marksman players that, practically, will never happen. Maybe in a "league 2.0". This part is what ties together the three different things in this comment.

Except crit is a widely disliked stat that even Riot has criticized on several occasions. Again, I'm not suggesting removing crit is the way to go, but we already have several marksmen who do not really need crit to operate, and who play just fine. Marksman build diversity has never been better, and while some aspects of that may not be so great (marksmen depending on Lethality makes it harder to balance AD assassins), it just goes to show that crit is not this sacred, monolithic stat that absolutely needs to be preserved at all costs, for fear of "disrupting" marksmen.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T02:15:37.351+0000)

Ranged, targeted, infinite, highest dps, essentially 0 downtime => best in teamfights (because tanks), fastest objective takers, & good at seiging. Scales with gold more than levels => great duo laner. If you want optional adcs, something has to give.

I completely agree that something has to give. For one, I think fighters and marksmen should be on equal levels of DPS, particularly since fighters have to work more in general to be able to apply their own damage, but in addition to this I think marksmen are going to have to end up relying on their kits more in the future. For most champions, we've evolved past the era of ball-of-stats champions whose unique abilities only serve to amplify their items via on-demand steroids... except for marksmen. Champions like Twitch and Tristana are relics of that era, and more modern marksmen have unique enough abilities that they can be made more level-dependent. Marksmen like Caitlyn, Ezreal and Varus especially are already somewhat more level-dependent, as they were originally designed to be mid laners, and at this point the argument that marksmen need to be more gold dependent no longer has any bearing, because marksman builds are the second-cheapest in the game, after support builds.

I would also add to the above that one of the reasons marksmen are currently mandatory is because they're the only damage class allowed to be late-game champions, with Riot stating as much during this year's Worlds (they also stated there that it was perfectly possible to switch primacy over from marksmen to other classes, such as battle mages). The notion of an entire class having the same power curve, aside from being impossible and harmful to in-class diversity, is also harmful to diversity across all champions, as here it means that carries from other classes are being deliberately relegated to second place at best, whereas marksmen who are naturally good early- or mid-game also get to enjoy an arbitrarily strong late game. Part of the issue with marksmen is effectively not so much that their damage output is somehow so special that it needs to be on every team (again, look at HotS and see which characters are the best teamfighters there), but that they're simply not made to run on the same design rules as every other class, to the detriment of everyone else.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T02:15:37.351+0000)

By crit I meant another form of (hyper-)scaling, not the pRNG we have today.

But why? Are spells lacking in their ability to kill their intended targets right now? I don't think the answer to hyperscaling autoattacks should be to multiply the damage of ability-based nukes, as in their current state it would cause many single abilities to kill other champions in far too few hits, which would be immensely frustrating to all. Considering how there is frustration already at how marksmen are outputting burst-per-second, toning down their later autoattack damage would likely be a far better alternative.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8nhyv9pX,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T02:15:37.351+0000)

I need to get back to my hellish finals week, maybe no reply for a couple days.

Best of luck with finals! I'm on the same boat too, got a bunch of final programming assignments to hand in before Wednesday. The struggle is real.

DragonSheaDec 9, 20172 votes

That would explain they are so fucking toxic, they are under so much pressure by the team to do well that they lash out.

Sad stuff indeed

Semi-Kappa.

BattalionDec 9, 20172 votes

With the addition of Zombie Ward and free vision Trinkets as well as Kleptomancy provided Stealth wards; if you get ganked it's because you're not doing something right. Vision is so free right now it's frustrating.

Spank the FoxDec 9, 20172 votes

+ Ingenious Hunter half CD on trinkets, I imagine some of these domination runes will get nerfed at the lastest after being abused during Spring Splits

BattalionDec 9, 20171 votes

Honestly if half the supports would dip into domination with Zombie Ward and Ingenious Hunter they could light up the botlane like Las Vegas.

Spank the FoxDec 10, 20171 votes

i had a vision score of over 200 in a 35 minute game because of that combination.

Tychusfindlay918Dec 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

With the addition of Zombie Ward and free vision Trinkets as well as Kleptomancy provided Stealth wards; if you get ganked it's because you're not doing something right. Vision is so free right now it's frustrating.

There can only be so many wards. There's very little fucking counterplay to bomb plants putting junglers instantly in river brushes before they can be spotted. If you're in the middle of the lane when that happens you're basically fucked.

BattalionDec 9, 20171 votes

Zombie Wards do not count towards your ward limit, it's in the tooltip. It also counts control wards and enemy wards you kill as well as your own wards. It is not even uncommon for me to get 5 wards on the map at any point in the game. Effective use of the Zombie Ward & Ingenious Hunter + Scanning Trinket can shut down enemy vision and turn it into your own vision. If more supports would do this, then this thread wouldn't exist with Ganking as a topic.

Also bomb plants are OP in general, it is not smite locked like jungle items item 3711 item 3715 item 1402 so anyone can use them. It gives gap closers that champions are not meant to have in their kit. While I have reaped the benefits of this mechanic numerous times, I do not believe that it should be in the game. Instead I'd rather see those plants be turned into scanning trinket plants to give rudimentary vision of the pit and scan the backside for wards from inside the pit.

FedoranDec 9, 20172 votes

look man i’ve been feeding on darius lately but im still going to flame you when you cant dodge a max range hook nor last hit any cs

AirKingNeoDec 9, 20171 votes

I don't see Ashe and Varus being broken. Only Xayah, Twitch, Kog'maw, and Tristana.

saltranDec 9, 20175 votes

Seriuosly, if you think that Xayah and Kog Maw are brouken right now we are not playing the same game or something.

AirKingNeoDec 9, 20171 votes

Xayah used R then E. I lost 85% HP.

Spank the FoxDec 9, 20172 votes

Have you tried a) moving to the left or right, and b) not being out of position?

AirKingNeoDec 9, 20171 votes

Diving Xayah as a diver is out of position?

Deez CritsDec 9, 20171 votes

Xayah is a special case of self peel. She can completely negate some of your most powerful tools to dive her. She has a moving Zhonya's effect which gives her team plenty of time to actually react to control whoever is trying to dive. You very well may be making the wrong decision trying to dive her; timing is crucial.

Also, if R and E is making you lose 85% hp, you surely are out of your mind trying to dive her when she's that far ahead.

ThefrostyvikingDec 9, 20171 votes

She is a marksman specialized in anti dives and assassinations at the expense of range and mobility though.'

And if she does so much damage with only R-E then she is either horrendously fed or something else is very wrong, she does not do that much in any other circumstance that i can think of.

Except on extremely squishy targets, but no squishy would ever get caught between her and her feathers...

AirKingNeoDec 10, 20171 votes

That's implying she isn't too good an anti assassination or dives or suffers from lack of damage for being so safe. She doesn't, so she has no counterplay. You can't outscale her either.

ThefrostyvikingDec 10, 20171 votes

She get's kinda screwed over by anything with more range than her, and she isn't really optimal against tanks since her steroid is AD and attackspeed.

So while she is good at handing a lone assassin or diver she gets pretty boned by anything more than a single one, or as i mentioned, anything with range.

Same thing as Fizz or Yasuo screwing over ranged and skillshots pretty hard, except she only does it towards divers and assassins with a single big gapcloser.

She is pretty much a specialized counterpick more than anything else, that's why only a few have a problem with her.

The ones playing that which she counters x)

SeanThomas2Dec 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I don't see Ashe and Varus being broken. Only Xayah, Twitch, Kog'maw, and Tristana.

not even xayah really, her bs moves are more easily avoidable than the other champs

DengedenDec 9, 20171 votes

So... basically everything's the same?

AR URFDec 9, 20171 votes

Tired of explaining to people that you can't just go item 3134 on an ADC and get kills like you would with Zed Talon Rengar . ADCs are going to need at least two items before they start being useful. So it's a sacrifice early damage for late game carrying.

KyunseiDec 9, 20171 votes

Jungler actually only can gank to earn what they need to strives in a game. Jungling currently resolve mostly on snowballing a lane and that's it.

Morally superiorDec 9, 20171 votes

You got something wrong. The Darius will be useless for the rest of the game, especially since he'll just get kited, the Xayah/Ashe (idk what it is lol) get items, and start doing a truckload of damage 150 cs later. 0/9 or not, every adc hurts when they have 4 items.

The game is botlane focused because the adc and the midlaner are the primary source of damage in a team, the adc doing far more in teamfights. Setting him behind was always a good way to win a game, and it still is. The whole team always depended on the carries doing damage, nothing changed.

Imo the game is rather balanced right now, no overly strong roles or items. Some champions are busted, but there's always someone broken, so that's nothing new. (Although rito, you might want to look at Malzahar, he's been sitting at a 55% winrate for months now.)

If you get flamed you have to kind of suck it up, mute them and report them afterwards. There's not much you can do about it. :/

Athenes LuluDec 9, 20171 votes

Don't forget how once they get behind it's actually difficult to catch back up due to low survivability they have on their own and that they can't "just farm and scale" anymore.

HügöDec 9, 20171 votes

But they can still "gg jungle didn't ganked my lane so i lost"

ampheonDec 9, 20171 votes

This is why I stopped trying to learn adc unless i'm fully premade. It's an auto loss since I can't play the role effectively.

CHODES AND LOADSDec 9, 20171 votes

no the guy stuck trying to support the incompetent ad carry while knowing "we gonna fuckin lose" the entire time has it worse

Mokuto BunshiDec 10, 20171 votes

I agree with this, but the way I see it is a carry role will always make people expect you to be their savior and if your not, they will inevitably get mad. ACTUALLY for this reason I stopped playing Lucian all together, because i'm technically the ADC, but come late game, there's very little I can do to help....so the flame ensues.

Unironic SJWDec 10, 20171 votes

People are playing hardcore revisionist history with the ADC in 2K17 meta. The fact that Ziggs bot was even being considered even professionally (the only thing that held it back is that mages are also borderline mandatory in pro play which means Ziggs bot fucked your damage profile, unless you took something like Jayce top, which fucked your team comp) because he actually was useful in the first 25 minutes of the game was a reflection of how bad the class was.

The reason why ADCs were tuned to spike so comparatively early is because the game had accelerated to the point where it was and is largely decided in the first 15-20 minutes, with every class being dangerous at 1 item, compared to the 3-4 items it took for ADCs, however ADCs were largely left at their old power curves and needed to be adjusted to the new state of the game. Riot definitely overshot (and some ADCs are just flat out unhealthy, Twitch comes to mind) The problem is that supports were also overtuned, especially enchanters, which are more dedicated to supporting the ADC than doing other things. Now ADCs are in a largely healthy spot (they still spike later, they're just not useless at 1 item like before), the problem is that on the boards, if ADCs have actual game impact, they're "broken", and if they're just glorified cannon minions, they're "balanced" .