Can we talk about displacements and knock ups?

Theorex·May 27, 2018·29 votes·13,464 views

Displacements and knock ups need to be affected by Tenacity at this point.

Name a new champion that doesn't come with some displacement or knock up.

has a knock up. has a knock up. has a knock up. has multiple displacements. has a knock up (or two not sure if the bear trap counts as a knock up as well) and a displacement. rework has a displacement. and have displacements.

Of ALL the champions released since the beginning of 2016.

We have and . That did not get some displacement or knock up put into there kit.

Pyke has a displacement as well.

But if they aren't getting Knock Ups or Displacements they are getting new bullshit mechanics as well.

Disarm? Sleep? Whats next, Confusion or Paralysis? Confusion, players screen turns grey and they randomly click on dummies to use skills/ do damage to them? Paralysis, enemy champion is stunned + deactivates all passives and abilities going? Similar to silence, but literally imagine Malzahar E on something and then he gets paralyzed instantly gone from the map, or Viktor chaos storm, or Rumble ulti, or Braum ulti. Like come on man.

Things are getting out of hand and players don't have access to means to counter these things. The only way to counter these things are to "not get hit by them." But you know how hard that is when every champion is overloaded with near unlimited dashes or forms of engage? Like be honest here.

66 Comments

PhearBunnyMay 27, 201824 votes

so we just gonna sit here and pretend Tenacity is actually useful to begin with?

ShahamutMay 27, 201813 votes

Only time I think Tenacity is useful is vs Veigar. If you have enough, you can escape his stun before the meteor lands. Can't outrun his ultimate obviously, but his ultimate doesn't usually kill you solo at 100% hp XD

TheorexMay 27, 20183 votes

Speak for yourself xD. I've seen veigar 1 shot an adc before. (He has like 3k AP BUT that another story).

But yes, Tenacity is strong against champions without knock ups or displacement.

DanjengMay 27, 20184 votes

Tenacity completely cucks Ryze. Normal root lasts literally .525 seconds against anybody with Mercury Treads. Also the MR on it pretty much mitigates whatever burst or penetration he's built.

About tenacity, I'm going to have to say it shouldn't affect knockups and displacement. It's going to be awkward if they were affected by tenacity. Some champions rely on it. Like Vayne E into wall. Also the animations will end up looking weird because of how short it'll be. I mean a knockup is esentially functionally identical to a stun except that it isn't affected by tenacity (along with some Yasuo interactions), you might as well make all knockups a stun instead.

But yeah I agree, nowadays they handing out displacements and special "mechanics" like Oprah. Preach it Theorex.

jmp231May 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Only time I think Tenacity is useful is vs Veigar. If you have enough, you can escape his stun before the meteor lands. Can't outrun his ultimate obviously, but his ultimate doesn't usually kill you solo at 100% hp XD

Tenacity is good against morg bind and Ashe ult

PoskeMay 27, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Only time I think Tenacity is useful is vs Veigar. If you have enough, you can escape his stun before the meteor lands. Can't outrun his ultimate obviously, but his ultimate doesn't usually kill you solo at 100% hp XD

At level 1 event horizon meteor landing is not guaranteed At level 2 it is (tenacity stops this) At level 3 tenacity is again worthless

Stop building this noob stat people

Emo TwinkMay 27, 20183 votes

{quoted}

so we just gonna sit here and pretend Tenacity is actually useful to begin with?

Tenacity screws with a burst mage, but it feels so useless against tank CC and all the knockups around.

FOR JUSTICEMay 27, 201813 votes

Garen

*hues in 90% tenacity*

HungryAngry2SPPMay 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

*cries in a useless 90% tenacity*

ChaddyFantomeMay 28, 20181 votes

Hey look, im holding the world up! [garen-swing] [garen-swing] [garen-swing]

IfnethMay 27, 20189 votes

You can’t complain that all new champions have knockups, admit that four don’t, and then just cite one example of an unusual one.

Displacement and unusual crowd control have been in League since the very first champion was designed. His name was Singed, and he had a displacement on his toss and a grounding on his Mega Adhesive. The original 40 champions followed suit, Janna’s Tornado, Alistar’s Headbutt, Tristana’s Buster Shot, Cho’Gath’s Rupture, Malphite’s Unstoppable Onslaught, and Blitzcrank’s Rocket Grab have always been displacements. That’s 6 of 40 champions with a game-changing displacement on their kits.

Nor was special crowd control rare. Amumu’s Disarm, Teemo’s Blind, Tryndamere’s Mock, and Fiddlesticks’ Fear were all unique crowd control. That’s 4 of 40 champions, or 10 total with the displacers. And that’s not counting the ones that, like Cho’Gath, had both a displacement and a special crowd control. In other words, what you’re talking about is not only nothing new but part of League itself.

No matter how fed you are, or how many objectives you’ve taken, Tenacity-ignoring crowd control will stop you because that’s what it’s designed to do. It works on every champion in the game equally well. It does so not only because certain abilities would make no sense if affected by Tenacity, but because it makes for better gameplay if there are abilities that even mightiest champions must fear. It also reminds fed players that their opponents remain champions and not just, say, minions.

Having Tenacity affect all crowd control would mean that you could just get fed, stack it, and there would be literally nothing to stop you from running at anyone you wanted and killing them if you had the stats. That’s not fun for them and shouldn’t even be for you, either.

Besides, it would break kits. Taliyah’s knock-up sets up her burst combo. Rakan’s is his engage. Rhaast’s lets him stick to frontlines that would otherwise just walk away.

Edited: Did not mean to say that special crowd control ignores Tenacity.

IkOermanMay 27, 20185 votes

Sure, but 10 champs with knockups that cannot be cleansed (of which maybe 1 or 2 make it into a team comp), is very different from 50-ish champs with knockups (of which 4 or 5 make it into a team comp).

Plus, as OP states, in earlier days they didn't also all have a gap-closer or an easy means to get the knockup to the target. (For example Vi's unstoppable ult?)

IfnethMay 27, 20181 votes

Drafting a team with four displacements is difficult and leaves you low on damage. You would need Sion Top, Gragas Jungle, Taliyah Mid, and Janna or a catcher Support. Since Sion, Taliyah, and Janna and Rakan’s are already common bans, that leaves you with an off-meta jungler and a non-comfort support, and Galio.

Rathar DashingMay 28, 20182 votes

Orianna Yasuo Malphite Kalista Chogath

IfnethMay 28, 20181 votes

That comp would need to put Malphite Support and Cho’Gath Jungle to even function, and three of its displacements would be on ultimate abilities.

Rathar DashingMay 28, 20181 votes

It's what they call a "Press R to win" comp. And yes, those are viable.

You could also run Orianna support, Malphite top, Yas Mid if you prefer, or go with your suggested Malph support Yas top Orianna mid.

EndlessSorcererMay 28, 20183 votes

Alistar has two displacements (Q, W). Thresh has two displacements (Q,E). Nautilus has two displacements (Q, R). XinZhao has two displacements (Q, R).

It isn't particularly difficult to get 4+ knockups/knockbacks on a team.

IfnethMay 28, 20181 votes

Displacements on ultimates require a champ to have their ultimate and devote it to dealing with you. Small and brief displacements, like Flay or Xin’s knockup, would be a bigger impediment as standard 1 second roots unless they can interrupt an ability.

Getting four big displacements on basic abilities is really hard. You would need something like Poppy Top, Gragas Jungle, Galio Mid, and a Catcher Support.

UpDownLeftRightABMay 27, 20186 votes

Those things you listed actually are affected by tenacity.

Fiddles fear, Teemo's Blind are affected, so is Tryndamere's shout. Disarm and Attack Speed reductions are also affected by tenacity.

Singed didn't get grounding until fairly recent, that was added shortly after Cassiopeia got it on her poison.

So, Tenacity did have use back in the day, nearly everyone would want to build it because there were point and click stuns and several easy to apply slows. Mainly, since damage wasn't as powercreeped, you could weather being chain CC'd in some cases and could survive with cleanse/flash (Flash used to pop all projectiles as well) Now, Damage is very high, a knockup normally means death before you hit the ground. Knockups were always used for that hard engage, the fact that they are everywhere now just allows people to chain knockup while before it was mainly just Malphite/Alistar. They were used so that a champion like Annie could land their stun and not have the ADC Cleanse/flash away. CDs were also much higher as well, so it was harder to abuse.

So yes, League has had unique CC and stuff, but it had more checks and balances around it prior. I mean, you didn't see every champ with 40% CDR back in the day and you certainly didn't have the ability to one shot on most champions.

IfnethMay 27, 20181 votes

I never said they weren’t, and neither did the OP. He was complaining about special CC just because it wasn’t a root or slow.

Good to know about Singed! I’d thought he’d always had it.

And that’s my point. Everyone wanted Tenacity because it would let you just shrug off crowd control, leading to a balancing problem of either making roots, slows, and stuns for stackers or non-stackers. It also required people to guess how long the control would last when chaining it. Displacements should be common to deter Tenacity stacking.

Do you have evidence for damage being powercreeped? You can’t just say that without proof to back it up, and it bothers me that so many people do the same. Please don’t just repeat a meme as your argument. By the way, only one champion in the game, Taliyah, could actually kill you before you hit the ground, and even she would need a full item lead with an all-in combo against a target without any bonus health or magic resistance.

Rathar DashingMay 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I never said they weren’t.

...

1 in 4 had crowd control that ignored tenacity

right there.

IfnethMay 28, 20181 votes

Oops. My bad. I will fix that. I meant to say 6 in 40.

UpDownLeftRightABMay 31, 20181 votes

Sorry to bump what would be considered an old post in the modern age. But! I did enough research for another reply and am posting an edited version here since you asked about damage powercreep.

The damage has increased. Through removing defensive options (specialized, not general) and through just buffing the damage that say, thunderlords like procs do. I mean, just look:

50 - 220 (based on level) (+ 50% bonus AD) (+ 30% AP)

10 - 180 (based on level) + (30% bonus AD) + (10% AP) magic damage

Can you tell which is electrocute and which is thunderlords?

It's simple, the one that deals more damage is electrocute. This is damage creep. Now what did we have during thunderlords that didn't make it as bad? MR runes, quints, scaling, flat hp runes, etc. It was magic damage. We lost those options, that in itself also increased damage, percent wise more (it is a curve, not linear) than any of the old masteries gave in damage. Losing 10 MR can mean taking 10% more damage, in some champions cases 15% more since they were already low on the scale of base defenses.

And the Keystone masteries with thunderlords were a powercreep on the older mastery system even. Havoc, the 18 points in offense tree only gave 3% damage increase, sure it was uninteresting but it didn't give you a flat damage boost.

Look at it this way, how much damage would you need for Havoc to give you 50 damage?

.03x = 50 50/.03 = 1667 (rounded up from 1666.666...)

That's a pretty unrealistic number to achieve for an additional 50 damage even with carries like Jhin entering the game, but it added up during those longer teamfights that it could matter when everyone was getting down to 100s of HP. Now everyone just gets blown up from adding these flat damage abilities that, to feel like they had impact, Riot made deal "Tons of damage" to steal Phreak's catch phrase. It's like when doran's blade gave 5HP per hit, that is essentially 5% lifesteal when everyone has 100AD or less. Now Riot is trying to band-aid the situation by adding more Flat damage reduction.

I may not be high tier by any standard, but I have been playing since closed beta and have played consistently throughout the games development and have racked the hours needed to understand the systems of the game and how they interact. I don't think you have to be challenger to have valid criticism. Some of us are older and don't have the reaction speed or hand eye coordination of our youth to compete at that level, but that doesn't mean we can't play and understand how the underlying system works.

IfnethMay 31, 20181 votes

Here’s my reply. The transition from Thunderlord’s to Electrocute is one keystone rune among many, and remember that Thunderlord’s was available much more often than Electrocute is. That’s power neutral.

The removal of resistance tunes came with the removal of penetration runes. No more Armor Seals, but no more Lethality Marks, either. No more Magic Resistance Glyphs, but no more Magic Penetration Marks, either. That’s power neutral, too.

Champions got blown up in the past. Mages built 800 AP. Assassins killed you before you could react, and sometimes before your screen could refresh. And that’s before anyone got fed. I almost never get ‘popped’ anymore.

UpDownLeftRightABMay 31, 20181 votes

So unless I can prove that it has happened for every single keystone, rune, ability.... you won't believe it? Isn't that just moving the goalposts? What about the change between old masteries and keystone masteries? That is a clear sign.

Can you refute the math? Or show that the change was power neutral using math?

Here is the thread I posted the original in https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dAYEpyhI-riot-every-rioter-on-the-balance-team-needs-to-watch-this-video-by-scarra

IfnethMay 31, 20181 votes

If you want to say that damage from, say, runes is up across the board, then yes, you would have to look at all the runes and their popularities. You can’t just point to one rune’s higher ratios and say that damage is therefore too high, especially after I pointed out how much less often those ratios are available than those of its predecessor were.

That video... isn’t Scarra’s best work. He never provides proof for his arguments, instead just repeatedly saying that there’s too much poke damage and too much lane sustain. That’s such a loaded and opinionated statement that he can’t be proven wrong or prove himself right, either. It ends up sounding like an echo chamber post.

UpDownLeftRightABMay 31, 20181 votes

So. Show me that it is power neutral.

Edit: Show me that damage is not up across the board.

IfnethMay 31, 20181 votes

Since you’re claiming damage is up, the burden of proof is on you to show it.

For electrocute specifically, since the cooldown is now 40s, it depends much more on the champion’s ability to actually proc it on cooldown or not. Since it requires three spells or basic attacks, only an all-in can proc it. You can’t all-in every 40s unless you’re LeBlanc, and I made a thread about her.

UpDownLeftRightABMay 31, 20181 votes

Burden of proof does go both ways in a debate, even you made some claims with no proof about what was even presented. I showed example through the games history, from the old masteries to keystones to runes reforged of damage creep. Now you have a chance to show that is wrong or refute with better evidence for the contrary. I don't have to prove the entire universe in one sitting.

Here is another damage creep, the availability of critical strike went up from 50% to 80% (100% in Essense reaver build cases), this was just recently changed so I need to look at those numbers again to see if it still results in more damage or similar damage.

Cooldown being 40 seconds is moot if the enemy dies on the first rotation. And before the Ultimate hat changes even a Fiddlesticks could all-in every 40 seconds (30 seconds actually) with 45% CDR. It's like saying would you rather have 100 damage per 2 seconds (1 slow swing) or 50 damage per second (two fast swings)? Sure they are technically equivalent but if the enemy has 75 HP, I hope you pick 100 damage to just one shot them. If the enemy has 30HP it is a moot discussion, the guy dies either way. If the enemy has 125 HP, I'd take the 50 and save a second. Context matters, but you can't just refute a valid claim by asking for no proof while not providing any proof towards the counter-argument in a well mannered debate.

There was also the addition of summoner Aery, a rune that even Riot admitted was "overtuned", overtuned means damage creeped. Sure they are addressing these issues but they are band-aids to the problem, not solutions.

I have been playing since the closed beta, would you refute that damage has gone up since then? What timeline are you referring to when you say that damage hasn't changed (remained power neutral)? Since base damages in general for champions has gone down while scaling has increased allowing bigger late game numbers. Would you say that it has outpaced the scaling on tanks?

IfnethJun 1, 20181 votes

The burden of proof lies on whoever makes a claim. You said that there was damage creep and offered the examples of Electrocute and the old masteries. I offered a rebuttal to both claims and said that you had not brought enough proof. While I claimed that damage was the same as it had been, I was paraphrasing a Riot statement I cannot remember.

Now, back to the subject. Saying that “damage is too high” is a sweeping claim, which you would need to prove for every champion in every situation, and therefore almost certainly false. Whereas individual runes, items, or champions could do too much damage; we can talk about those without getting into vague, hard-to-prove generalities.

UpDownLeftRightABJun 1, 20181 votes

You haven't refuted any claim I made other than saying I don't bring enough proof. With you making the opposite claim and bringing no proof at all. Do you see how this is one sided? Just taking the sweeping claim and accepting any examples of where it is true and not providing any claims where it is false just shows one side. It's not even an argument at this point, you are arguing beliefs which can't be true or false. You don't provide any answer to any questions I do ask in my arguments which leads me to just assume you aren't reading the whole thing. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but that means I would need to be shown. Since from my own look into the topic I see point A, you say Point A is wrong, a meme. You are already assuming you are correct without showing point not A (Point B) So if we are going to argue over point A, show me where I am wrong in my assumption of point A by showing me Not A.

Flat damage increases are providing more damage than the old small percentage increases. In removing the hidden power for power that feels impactful, they increased damage. Ask yourself, would you rather take 3% increased damage or 50 flat damage? Me showing more examples is just an exercise in pedantic displays, you can always say I have not shown enough and ask for more burden of proof while not doing anything. While a debate tactic, it can go on endlessly for one side while the other does not proving anything.

We can look at Grasp, it's 4% max health damage is something that wasn't in the game before the keystones, we can look at the buffs to true damage through conqueror and now new infinity edge (deals more damage to targets over 83.33 armor), We can look at champion added to the game with %health damage, Kai`sa, Jhin, adding %max hp damage to fling on singed. We can look at how crit itemization before the current patch had increased ADC damage, we can talk about how changing crit from true RNG to psuedo-RNG increased the consistency of high damage. We can talk about how runes that allow a breaking of the attack speed cap allow how increased damage (5.0 attack speed Kog'Maw was an interesting experiment with his % damage). The addition of Vayne as a champion with % true damage adding more damage, her Q changes allowing that damage to crit (removed). We can talk about how itemization changes over the coarse of the game have increased damage by making items more gold efficient, such as ADC itemization gravitating away from needing to build defensive items and now can opt for items like phantom dancer and deaths dance rather than the old Banshee's vale and guardian angel. New passives such as guinsoo's double attack and new item actives such as gunblade and protobelt giving damage to classes that didn't have those options in the past. Changes to champions like Caitlyn, adding damage to her traps, something she didn't have previously. Supports now being actual champions, rather than walking ward carriers added damage (redemption and zeke's convergence come to mind as another thing they add on top of their own skills and other items).

There has been damage added to the game, that is irrefutable. I say that adding these champions, skills, runes, items has been a net increase in damage more so than the nerfs to bring them closer to the line. When I said damage has gotten too high, I didn't mean on any specific champion because there has been damage added to the game that just wasn't there before.

I'm asking you now to show your side. I think I have provided enough cases of damage being added to the game without additional defensive options being added, in fact, some of those defensive options have been removed (which increases damage).

IfnethJun 1, 20181 votes

Saying that someone didn’t bring enough proof is a refutation, and it doesn’t require any other proof than saying that the claim is bigger than the proof offered. You claimed that “damage is too high,” and I refuted that claim by pointing out that you would need to prove, across the board, that it is. Because you made a sweeping claim, that’s all the proof I needed.

Demanding that someone making a claim bring proof is the essence of debate and a foundation of reason. Calling it pedantic and demanding that your broad arguments be immediately believed—or that they must be outright disproved if anyone is to dissent—betrays arrogance. Furthermore, accusing someone of demanding broad proof of broad claims is either a misunderstanding of just how much proof they require, or an attempt to ‘turn it around’ on the person demanding.

Let me put this very simply. What you said, “damage is too high,” is not just a wrong argument. It’s a bad argument. You would have to actually go through the whole game and check all the damage to know whether it’s true or not. Of course that’s exhausting.

Now, onto your specific claims.

-You said that new, flat damage amounts from the new runes are better than the percentage increases of the old ones. You cited 3% and 50 damage. Which rune, besides electrocute, does that?

-Grasp of The Undying did %Max Health damage before and still does. The %Max Health is of the user’s health.

-%Health damage has been around since Blade of The Ruined King and Liandry’s Torment. Tanks use it, sometimes basing it in their own health.

-Infinity Edge deals less damage to squishy targets and is not available as a first item anymore.

-ADCs still build defensive items, Guardian Angel among them. Instead of Banshee’s Veil, they take Mercurial Scimitar or occasionally Maw or Malmortious. Their items were all increased in price in the last patch and were quite expensive for a long time.

-Guinsoo’s Rageblade is Sated Devourer, for better or worse.

-Hextech Gunblade gave damage to certain AP Assassins and, occasionally, Jax.

-Hextech Protobelt is built on almost no-one except Cho’Gath, Ekko, and Vlad, who do lots of damage and would have just built a different damage item.

-Caitlyn’s traps deal damage now. Ok. I’ll give you that one.

-Supports being actual champions sounds like a good argument... until you read their damage numbers and don’t see that much. Maybe a fed Bard or an Aftershock user at Levels 1-3 could be a threat, unless you’re talking about an outright mage “Support” like Brand.

I don’t have a “side,” other than paraphrasing that old Riot release and debunking your claim, which I have done above.

UpDownLeftRightABJun 1, 20181 votes

So, you don't find that any of these added damage sources added damage that wasn't already accounted for in the game? Instead you appeal to authority, Riot. Paraphrasing an old Riot release, but not presenting the old Riot release seems to just make your argument, Riot said so and I believe that they are infallible. While they have shown that they are human too. Even they can admit mistakes, either through overbuffing, over nerfing, making champions like Zoe and Yasuo overtuned?

I'm not claiming more than "damage is higher than it was in the past" just as if I was to claim that "champions have more mobility than they did in the past" I'm stating from a reference point, not just pulling it out of the air.

Which runes besides electrocute add flat damage?

Grasp, Predator, Hail of Blades, Harvest, Press the Attack, Conqueror, Lethal Tempo, Summon Aery, Comet, Aftershock, RNG Kleptomancy can give potions to give adaptive damage. All these allow for more damage, largely in burst (except lethal and aftershock, that give 1.5s-2.5s delays and comet which is champion dependent on slows if it will always hit)

Sated devourer used to not exist in the game, did it not add damage? Grasp going from 3% to 4% while also adding a scaling component didn't add extra damage? So changing from Banshees vale giving health and Magic resist to Mercurial giving damage and magic resist didn't add damage, maw of malmortious giving attack speed and damage (on proc) and damage didn't add anything? Blade of the rune king and liadry's were not always in the game, did they not add damage? A support who went from no items to now having items adds nothing, considering a support can now solo kill when before that was just impossible? Champions who already do lots of damage and can now get items to make them do more damage from item activations (Vlad, Cho, Ekko) isn't adding more? Do you consider that one of these things alone isn't a problem, but it's lots of little things adding up. Damage has increased.

You clearly have not considered these changes together, you want to look at each change in a vacuum, but we are not in a vacuum. For not having a side, you seem to not consider any other point of view or consider that the developers aren't perfect at making their game a balance of damage and survivability. I called it pedantic because you didn't even bring anything other than, "It must be a meme", "Riot said X", You didn't look at the information yourself and come to your own conclusions and you judged the other viewpoint merit-less from the start. I was honestly interested if you had your own thoughts and could show that most of these resulted in a more power neutral or not as much of a power creep as believed, or if survivability is in fact equal to the damage creep.

If damage hadn't been increased, there wouldn't be a need for the current ADC rework to focus on Crit. There wouldn't be a need for nerfs, there would only be a need for buffs. Think about it from a design perspective, not about winning an argument on the internet, since it doesn't matter if there is a winner or loser, neither of us can change the game. You asked, why I believed damage was increased, I have shown many small and some larger examples of damage being added to the game where it didn't previously exist and there were largely no changes to survivability in response to these changes I mentioned. It's a viewpoint, not like there is anything at stake. I guess you can say, I asked your opinion and instead just got told that my opinion was just flat wrong instead of getting your opinion. I mean no offense, I just hoped this would be a good discussion.

IfnethJun 1, 20181 votes

Riot would know whether damage has gone up or not, since it’s their game. I doubt you have access to the massive stat spreadsheets and analytics they do. Not even knowing how much damage is in their own game is a pretty big blunder to accuse them of.

What is “the past”? Do you mean closed beta, or Season 1, 2, or 3? You have to be specific. Did damage go up every season, or up and down and wind up higher now? When you start talking about this scale, stuff like this matters.

Wait, are you saying that adding a damage item to the game is adding damage? You do understand that to actually add damage, it would have to replace a less damaging item, right?

Banshee’s Veil was a tank item that carries bought because they needed its Magic Resistance and Health to survive the burst of an 800 AP mage. Now, it’s an item mages build to protect themselves against AP assassins without becoming irrelevant. So, that’s actually a damage reduction, since the assassin deals less damage to the mage, becoming less fed, dealing less damage to other champions, and the mage deals less damage because they bought MR instead of a juicy damage passive. You can’t just throw changes out like this and say, “See, more damage!”

Hextech Protobelt... really doesn’t do much damage. It’s there because it offers health and AP for champs who need it, plus a dash with some AOE damage for waveclear. If you wanted straight up damage, then you’d buy Luden’s Echo.

I think you misunderstood my point. What rune does 50 base damage besides electrocute?

Why do you keep demanding that I dig up sources and evidence and “reach my own conclusions” when it’s you who has something to prove? I’m just pointing out the flaws in your argument. You’re essentially demanding that I search through all of Riot’s itemization changes, etc., when you aren’t even willing to do it yourself. I never said anything other than a paraphrase of Riot’s research.

As for the argument that “it all adds up,” that’s not an excuse for citing lots of tiny changes that added a bit of damage and calling it damage creep. You have to explain how it would and prove that it does. You’d also have to review what that damage is being applied to, including resistances and penetration data as well.

Don’t you see why your claim is bad, now? This could take a group of people weeks of painstaking research, and we don’t even have all the numbers we’d need.

And now your claim is getting bigger. You’re saying there weren’t damage runes and masteries. That’s not true. Plenty of early-game champions like Elise and Lee Sun would take 20 AD or 40 AP in their runes and masteries. That dwarfs what the current Runes offer. Thunderlord’s Decree had its own meta.

You’re also saying that there’s not been any increase to Resistance or Regeneration. There have been increases to defense and sustain throughout League’s history, both long and recent. The tank update. Bone Plating, Chrysalis, and Second Wind. How about that good ol’ Ardent + Shield meta, when it was League of Super-Tanks and Hypercarries?

SociopathFriendMay 27, 20187 votes

I've never understood why people say there's too many knock-ups when there was, last I counted, 3x more abilities with CC that tenacity does work on. Naming a trend and calling it a bad thing isn't the same as it being a bad thing.

How many of those knock-ups or displacements have anywhere near the range most tenacity-capable cc does? How many of them involve substantial risk of the champion using those abilities having to jump right onto the enemy? Or at least very close? How many of them have additional criteria for pulling off rather than just nailing a skillshot and reaping the results?

The Space CowboyMay 27, 20185 votes

Alistar AurelionSol Blitzcrank Chogath Darius Diana Draven Galio Gnar Gragas Hecarim Ivern Janna Jayce Kayn Kled LeeSin Lulu Malphite Maokai Nami Nautilus Orianna Ornn Poppy Rakan Rammus RekSai Riven Sejuani Shyvana Singed Sion Swain TahmKench Taliyah Thresh Trundle Urgot Vayne Velkoz Volibear MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Zac Ziggs Zyra There’s a few champs I guess lol.

The Space CowboyMay 27, 20182 votes

Tristana JarvanIV Braum Anivia Aatrox

1 800 GGTOOEZMay 28, 20182 votes

Azir Camille Fizz Kalista Quinn Syndra Viktor

Brutalitops01May 27, 20184 votes

Camille's E is a stun and her ult only displaces champions other than her target in the range. Wouldn't exactly call any of that a real "knock up." Kled's bear trap does count as a displacement, but it's pretty much instant. You're stunned by it for about 0.25 seconds, and his ultimate is the same, stunning you for about 0.5 seconds.

I just have to ask, how would Tenacity work on displacements specifically? Would it reduce the length of the displacement? That's about all that it could do. And you also complain about mechanics that don't exist, coming up with the single most broken way to introduce them specifically for the purpose of giving you something else to complain about because your argument about these mechanics isn't good enough.

Me? I just play Warwick. Q is a 5 second cd that makes you completely immune to these effects for about 0.5 seconds, just long enough to dodge them if you're not trash, and his ultimate makes him completely cc immune for the dash. I get the feeling that you're salty after playing against a specific champion who got really fed and you didn't know how to counter him, so you blamed it on the cc instead of on you playing/building wrong.

And by "playing/building wrong," I mean building Tenacity in the first place. It's literally the most useless stat in the game, it does nothing to any form of cc. If you have 90% with Garen, you may shave off 0.01 second from a Morgana binding. Mayyyyyyyyyyyybeee.

TheorexMay 27, 20184 votes

First: No I am not salty. Look at it, I even brought it up. Out of the last two years. We have 4 champions without knock ups or displacements in their kits. Its a trend that Riot is following. Like the true damage trend that is going on right now. I am saying that here soon, we are going to need something to work against knock ups and displacements.

Secondly: Building wrong. So lets talk about Builds, since I am a Ryze player. I'll say that the enemy team has a camille, naut support, yasuo mid, tristana adc, and idc graves jungle. My build would be, Seraphs > Zhonyas > Ninja Tabi > (Depending on if Yas/Tristana is fed) Randuins/ Morellonomicon > Rabadons > Frozen heart/ void staff. Now please tell me what item i can build to counter the displacements or knock ups on that team. The best thing I can do is prevent the skill or ability from happening. But then look at naut ulti. Its a point and click, he just has to wait for Zhonyas to drop.

So your argument that I am not building properly can't actually be applied here. I have up to 4 forms of damage reduction against a full AD team. The only thing I can show for taking care of displacements is Zhonya's.

What you said there would be similar to me saying. "Building Edge of Night or Banshees is enough to stop Malzahar from Suppressing you!" its simply not true. They can prevent the event from happening, but they don't stop the event.

Don't try to say that "well if you played better" stuff. Because you can literally say that for everyone. This game is about capitalizing on mistakes. You have to come from a full blown 5 v 5 mind set. Someone like Yasuo mixed with camille might force me to burn zhonya's after I get ultied by camille. In which case Naut has free reign to click R on me. That is already really good, that I got two ultis out but I have to rely on my team for the rest of it because I am going to get knocked up by naut ulti and followed by yasuo.

Third: Tenacity isn't a useless stat. It works very well against Ryze's snare, morgana snare, lux bind, Silences, fears, etc. It actually was overpowered to the point where they had to nerf mercury treads once. But with the introduction of all of these new mechanics, displacements, and knock ups. The value of tenacity has dropped. Its 100% effective against people that only have slows, stuns, silences, snares, roots, binds, etc. Its 0% effective against people with displacements, knock ups, disarms, and other bs mechanics.

I find that hard to believe that if garen has 90% tenacity that it would shave off 0.01 seconds.

Lets find out shall we.

Garen has merks + his W. = 90%

Morgana snare last for 3 seconds at max rank.

Garen with only merks = 3.0 x .3 = .9, 3.0-.9= 2.1 second snare.

Garen with both = math above, 2.1 x .6 = 1.26, 2.1- 1.26 = .84

I'm not saying to buff tenacity by making it strong against everything else.

I am saying if a person knocks you back 1000 units in 1 second. You should only get knocked by 700 units in .7 seconds. It gives counter play to Janna ulti, nami knock up, naut ulti, etc.

Do you want a league where every single champion has a knock up or displacement because they decided that those are the new infallible stats? League is becoming less about counter play every time they introduce a new champion. Its rather sickening tbh.

Brutalitops01May 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

First: No I am not salty. Look at it, I even brought it up. Out of the last two years. We have 4 champions without knock ups or displacements in their kits. Its a trend that Riot is following. Like the true damage trend that is going on right now. I am saying that here soon, we are going to need something to work against knock ups and displacements.

Secondly: Building wrong. So lets talk about Builds, since I am a Ryze player. I'll say that the enemy team has a camille, naut support, yasuo mid, tristana adc, and idc graves jungle. My build would be, Seraphs > Zhonyas > Ninja Tabi > (Depending on if Yas/Tristana is fed) Randuins/ Morellonomicon > Rabadons > Frozen heart/ void staff. Now please tell me what item i can build to counter the displacements or knock ups on that team. The best thing I can do is prevent the skill or ability from happening. But then look at naut ulti. Its a point and click, he just has to wait for Zhonyas to drop.

So your argument that I am not building properly can't actually be applied here. I have up to 4 forms of damage reduction against a full AD team. The only thing I can show for taking care of displacements is Zhonya's.

What you said there would be similar to me saying. "Building Edge of Night or Banshees is enough to stop Malzahar from Suppressing you!" its simply not true. They can prevent the event from happening, but they don't stop the event.

Don't try to say that "well if you played better" stuff. Because you can literally say that for everyone. This game is about capitalizing on mistakes. You have to come from a full blown 5 v 5 mind set. Someone like Yasuo mixed with camille might force me to burn zhonya's after I get ultied by camille. In which case Naut has free reign to click R on me. That is already really good, that I got two ultis out but I have to rely on my team for the rest of it because I am going to get knocked up by naut ulti and followed by yasuo.

Third: Tenacity isn't a useless stat. It works very well against Ryze's snare, morgana snare, lux bind, Silences, fears, etc. It actually was overpowered to the point where they had to nerf mercury treads once. But with the introduction of all of these new mechanics, displacements, and knock ups. The value of tenacity has dropped. Its 100% effective against people that only have slows, stuns, silences, snares, roots, binds, etc. Its 0% effective against people with displacements, knock ups, disarms, and other bs mechanics.

I find that hard to believe that if garen has 90% tenacity that it would shave off 0.01 seconds.

Lets find out shall we.

Garen has merks + his W. = 90%

Morgana snare last for 3 seconds at max rank.

Garen with only merks = 3.0 x .3 = .9, 3.0-.9= 2.1 second snare.

Garen with both = math above, 2.1 x .6 = 1.26, 2.1- 1.26 = .84

I'm not saying to buff tenacity by making it strong against everything else.

I am saying if a person knocks you back 1000 units in 1 second. You should only get knocked by 700 units in .7 seconds. It gives counter play to Janna ulti, nami knock up, naut ulti, etc.

Do you want a league where every single champion has a knock up or displacement because they decided that those are the new infallible stats? League is becoming less about counter play every time they introduce a new champion. Its rather sickening tbh.

Ryze is a very positioning-based champion. Notice your Q has the ability to trigger a shield and movement speed buff if you cast it after casting either your E twice or E + W. Also notice that E + W is double the snare duration. In your example, you notice the wall that the Camille is positioning the closest to and position to the opposite wall (also, you used her in your example despite the fact that she doesn't have a knock up in her kit) because her E (which is a stun) doesn't have the range to dash that far. If she uses it on the wall you're positioning near, she doesn't hit the wall with it. If she uses it on the wall she's near, she can't hit you with the second dash.

You also position yourself well behind your backline, throwing out Q's as you can until you see that the enemy team has blown their CC. If Yasuo tries to dash through your front line to you, you use your Q + E + W + Q combo on him to deal less damage than the Q + E + Q + W + Q + E + Q that is his standard highest damage combo, but lets you get a shield and speed buff as well as snaring him for 1 second, rather than half a second. He can't touch you in teamfights unless he hits his third Q on you as a skillshot, and if he does that, you have made a HUGE mistake in not dodging the thing. Nautilus should be more focused on protecting his carries than on getting to the back line and killing you, and shouldn't ult you unless you run at his carries, something you should NEVER do on Ryze when there is a Nautilus standing there who still has all of his cooldowns. You must at least be a halfway decent Ryze player to be in plat 1, but I honestly can't see how if you're making these basic positioning mistakes that get you killed in these situations.

And I seriously do not understand why you build Randuin's or Frozen Heart on him. Frozen Heart hasn't been a good Ryze item since his season 1 iteration, when he scaled better and far more directly off of mana, and Randuin's has never been a Ryze item. You have your Rune shield with your E + W + Q combo and your Seraph's mana shield for probably around 800 extra health in the heat of the moment (completely blocking Yasuo ult if you use it just before the knock up hits to trigger it).

Regarding Garen with 90% Tenacity, that's not something you get off of just Mercs and his W. You get it off of Mercs, W, the Unflinching rune, and the Legend: Tenacity rune. You have to build for it, and I have played this build before. All that Tenacity and I didn't notice even a fraction of a second of CC being reduced.

For Ryze builds and play, I'm not personally the biggest Ryze player, but he was my first champion back in season 1, and combined with how long I've been playing, I have a general idea. I would recommend checking out Pro Builds or watching a challenger-level Ryze player play him, then just mimic what he does as best as you can.

And because I know you're gonna look up my rank, yes, I know I'm silver 2 and you're plat 1. I don't really play a ton of ranked, nor do I have high goals. I don't really have time around work, considering I leave at 5 AM and don't get home until 5:30 PM, then dinner and shower, and then I'm in bed by 10 so I can do it all again the next day, I just don't have the time to grind obscene amounts of ranked games, nor do I care to. I play normals for fun mostly, and I'm alright with that. I've generally had a steady climb over the past couple of years, since I started playing ranked. Playing game knowledge-based champions, if I had the time to pour into League, I could probably get to Platinum.

IkOermanMay 27, 20184 votes

Playing since end S1 myself. Fully agree. Around that time there were only 2 or 3 champions with knockups, but now they are literally everywhere.

All new champions get knockups, all new champions get a dash, its getting WAY out of hand. Cleanse has become fucking useless because you cant cleanse knockups (it only allows you to casts spells like flash).

A counter against knockups should be introduced soon.

The Yetii RiderMay 27, 20184 votes

Disarm is not new. Disarm has been in the game for a long time. It used to be called "Pacify" and it applied from two other abilities.

Amumu - Curse of the Sad Mummy roots and disarms all champions affected.

Lulu - Whimsy reduces the target's movement speed by 60, silences and disarms them.

CrisisEchoesMay 27, 20183 votes

tbh qss should negate knockups in 2018 riots just being too fucking lazy to code it.

Emo TwinkMay 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

tbh qss should negate knockups in 2018 riots just being too fucking lazy to code it.

2018 there needs to be an AP qss instead of banshees

Pika FoxMay 28, 20181 votes

QSS does negate knockups. You need to QSS and use a movement ability to gain control again. This is why GP can Orange > flash a knockup.

Ionian VulpixMay 27, 20183 votes

We still need Confusion, Paralysis, and Frozen to have all the proper status effects.

CURSEÐ REVENANTMay 27, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ionian Vulpix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8mGKvFLL,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-05-27T14:19:25.677+0000)

We still need Confusion, Paralysis, and Frozen to have all the proper status effects.

https://media.makeameme.org/created/let-it-go-ip52dv.jpg

Lissandra

Snowman ArcMay 27, 20183 votes

Yeah, this whole displacement / knock up thing is really taking over, making the Tenacity stat useless. Literally, almost all meta champions with CC have a their CC in the form of a knock up. Rakan, Alistar, Braum, Kench (suppression unaffected by Ten), Taliyah, Azir, Galio, Chogath, Yasuo.

At the same time, other older-meta champions without knock ups are in the trash can. Viktor, Lissandra are prime examples. Maokai is not played anymore (his Q is indifferent as a knock up), while champions with Tenacity - affected CC are played because they are overtuned or busted. Ryze, Morgana.

At this point I wonder why Malphite isn't the most meta top laner to be honest.

YOU KNOW THAT TENACITY SUCKS, WHEN MERC TREADS ARE MOSTLY BOUGHT FOR MR.