Skarner's Crystal Spires "mini-game" shouldn't be equal for allies and enemies alike.

Illâoi Evê Siôn··41 votes·3,350 views

Right now, both allies and enemies need the same time to capture a spire (2 seconds), get the same amount of gold (15 to 30), and have the same lock-out time (15 seconds). The ability should favor certain parties in certain regards though.

##For Skarner's Allies

They should be easier to capture: This could scale downwards with level (2 seconds --> 2/1.75/1.5/1.25/1) or it could just be slightly lower (1.75 seconds or 1.5). Capturing spires for or as Skarner shouldn't be a chore, it's supposed to benefit his whole team. Right now all it does is benefit Skarner a little and root one of his allies for 2 seconds.

They shouldn't grant gold: Skarner's spires are different from other summoned "units" in that they can be summoned by his allies as well. However, this shouldn't allow them to grant gold. Even so, the gold almost seems like a pittance for making you waste your team capturing the spire. Instead, they should grant other, better rewards.

Their lock-out time should scale up with level: That way Skarner is still encouraged to capture spires before or during fights in the early to mid game, but he needn't worry so much about that in the late game. Instead, he'd have zones he can rely on and conquer.

Their vision should last longer: Instead of gold, spires should grant Skarner's allies a tangible reward for being captured. Currently the vision they grant when captured only lasts for 1.5 seconds. I suggest upping that to 3 or 5 seconds. The vision could decay during this duration and the duration could scale with Skarner's level, but Supports would be much more willing to capture spires if they helped with vision control.

##For Skarner's Enemies:

They should be harder to capture in comparison: The capture duration could stay at 2 seconds, as long as it is shorter for Skarner's allies. It could also be upped to anything from 2.25 to 3 seconds. Capturing spires as Skarner's enemies should be a chore. But it should have its own rewards as well, which are ...

... They should grant more gold: Instead of 15/30 something like 25/50.

... Their lock-out time should last longer: This would encourage enemies to capture Skarner's spires before fights to deny them for the fight. This lock-out time would still be shorter than Skarner's allies' in the late game though.

##Capture Denial

Lastly, the means of capturing spires should be different. Standing on a spire to deny capture is too difficult for what they do and leads to frequent shifts in control of spires. Skarner should be the only one who can capture spires despite enemies. So the only thing keeping Skarner from conquering what's his is the lock-out time. Everyone else should have their capture attempt canceled if they are damaged by an enemy champion or if an enemy champion is standing on the spire.

P.s.: Spire size (the inner capture zone, not its radius) could also be slightly increased.

34 Comments

Ralanr36 votes

Or we could remove the spire concept on Skarner and give him a full rework since he's kinda generic.

I don't fully agree with Riot's direction in Skarner. Ill admit I never played Skarner (I didn't want to play a scorpion) and with his rework I feel less interested in playing him because of how much a chore it feels to keep control over his spires when he's on my team.

It's an annoying crutch imo.

Illâoi Evê Siôn14 votes

{quoted}

Or we could remove the spire concept on Skarner and give him a full rework since he's kinda generic.

Skarner needs some band-aids, and these are easy to apply. I don't want to wait 2 years before he's played again.

Teridax689 votes

This is a good point. I love Skarner to death, and I think he absolutely needs a rework, but I also feel that may not happen until quite some time. As bizarre and out-of-place as his current innate is, I agree that making it at least slightly more favorable to him could go a long way in making him more functional.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

What frustrates me is that he was in a perfectly fine place to leave alone for a couple years BEFORE the juggernaut rework. If I could freaking play pre-juggernaut Skarner now with all the current changes to the game I could wreck face when I end up playing jungle.

yay nibbers1 votes

The best part is he was in no way a juggernaut like the others in the update and Riot even admitted to this after the damage was done. Can't revert him though, that would be a true admission of wrong-doing.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

[{quoted}](name=HTC VIVE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8gFgrgF4,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-22T19:59:09.940+0000)

Can't revert him though, that would be a true admission of wrong-doing.

What you're doing here is dismissing an idea, a possibility, and in doing so you actually push anyone out of the discussion who would have otherwise helped it to happen.

Please do not do this. It only hurts progress.

Cavesloth1 votes

True, while riot doesn't like to admit they crapped the bed with rework, they have reverted a rework in the past (Kog).

SociopathFriend1 votes

That's because most reworks set out to solve a problem. Kog wasn't reworked because he had a problem- he was reworked because the ADC update wanted to make them all a bit more unique.

Kog got a revert because his 5.0 AS literally warped the entire game around him- it was never going to be remotely balanced, Riot knew it, and Kog's old pattern was fine.

And it's never a good business decision to go, "You know what, the old way was bad but this way is bad too, let's go back to something we know is bad instead of working to get something good from the new."

That's why Malz was never "reverted" but his kit kept getting tapped around until he was in a good place. He's probably the best example of a rework that didn't work out as expected at-launch but slowly was tinkered with until he was at a good spot.

Champion Skin1 votes

Kog got a revert because his 5.0 AS literally warped the entire game around him- it was never going to be remotely balanced, Riot knew it, and Kog's old pattern was fine.

It seemed quite obvious that all On-hit items would be warped around Kog'maw since no other champion could get 5.0 attack speed and because of how well he worked with on-hit he also built Rageblade making on-hit even better on him

I don't even see how that got through to begin with... I guess potentially gimping on-hit for all other champions would be fine or they would have to dumpster Kog'maw so much that even if he builds on-hit items which are balanced around the 2.5 attack speed cap he still won't be OP (On-hit is possibly balanced around a lower AS as most champions don't get 2.5 AS)

That's why Malz was never "reverted" but his kit kept getting tapped around until he was in a good place. He's probably the best example of a rework that didn't work out as expected at-launch but slowly was tinkered with until he was at a good spot.

Isn't kind of the biggest problem with Malzhar his ult? And how difficult it can be to interact with him (which was made more difficult with the rework because of his new passive)

SociopathFriend1 votes

I don't even see how that got through to begin with...

The idea was for him to be weaker because there was no way in hell you could kite or orb-walk while doing it. So he'd be stronger with a team that worked around him.

However, like a lot of decent ideas, players could abuse it too heavily.

Isn't kind of the biggest problem with Malzhar his ult? And how difficult it can be to interact with him (which was made more difficult with the rework because of his new passive)

One of Malz's biggest problems was most of his damage was from W (AoE pool that's almost impossible to miss) + E (point and click) + R (point and click) + voidlings (no effort on Malz's part) and as such- you really couldn't fail.

Now? Now to reach the same amount of damage you have to get someone with your visions and either tag them with your Q to refresh them or Ult them. Also your voidlings don't pop up for no reason- you have to know when to bust em out. Essentially it's easier now to get off less damage, which put him in a better place as the skill of the player is more relevant to his damage. 'Skill ceiling' I believe is the term.

yay nibbers1 votes

You're right. I guess I'm just a wee bit salty (read: pretty damn salty) about it because I really liked old Skarner, and it hurts even more that they admitted Skarner didn't really belong in the juggernaut update but still haven't done anything about it.

I know they reverted Kog and all, but they only reverted him because 5 attackspeed was busted and they couldn't balance it. When it comes to Skarner, it feels like they just don't care and that's pretty upsetting.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

I respect that. And I do think your concerns are valid. It sucks when they drop things for months on end and leave our favorite champions in a terrible state.

I was only speaking against the dismissive nature of your statement.

I'd love to know your thoughts on what makes Skarner Skarner, and what sorts of changes would best deliver his theme and gameplay fantasy.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

I know I'm not HTC but I am passionate about Skarner (When he comes up anyway). The one word that always stuck out to me when Skarner was getting his first reworks was that he's supposed to be "sticky". He's meant to be a high CC fighter, he doesn't do burst damage but if he can lock you down long enough then he can output a lot of damage.

I am kinda tired of repeating myself so I'm going to show some ideas I had before for what could be changed about current Skarner.

One way to change Skarner is to make his ult capable of dragging his crystals but have it have a separate cooldown for using it on a crystal. This would allow you to SET UP where you want to put them so you could plan ahead on where you intend to fight. This would actually demonstrate some skill and require proper planing, both to set them up and to make sure you don't place one in a spot you could be zoned from. You'd have to reduce the range of the effects but at least this way you wouldn't be shackled to just fighting in the jungle.

Another thing would be to get rid of all the stat shit and instead make it so they give him utility or special effects on his abilities, the kinds of effects that would make him better at dealing with baron and dragon or maybe they'd give him his old passive on his Q again. Part of what makes the current crystals so bad is that they're just stat balls which is a lot of "invisible power" that Riot says they don't like.

Another would be to ditch the activation gimmick entirely and make it so Skarner's abilities, when used on the crystals, do more things. Maybe hitting his Q on a crystal causes it to ring out with a harmonic frequency that deals damage, or silences enemies for half a second, or maybe it slows enemies. Hitting his E on a crystal could cause a large beam of energy to shoot out towards the nearest enemy. Using his W while next to a crystal could apply his shield to all of his allies in range for half the value.

If we're talking about changes that involve the removal of the rock crutches, reverting him back to the version of him before the Juggernaut patch would be a fantastic solution that Riot would unfortunately never go for. So if it were something entirely different then perhaps make Skarner more like an actual scorpion, maybe remove his current ult and make his Q have him grab someone for a short time (Like .5 seconds) and make his E be a spammable short duration slow and his main damage source. Maybe make his W a crystal creator that has to be placed in the jungle or a bush and have it give him increased damage and so the idea is to drag someone to their doom into the crystal zone.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

{quoted}

I know I'm not HTC but I am passionate about Skarner (When he comes up anyway). The one word that always stuck out to me when Skarner was getting his first reworks was that he's supposed to be "sticky". He's meant to be a high CC fighter, he doesn't do burst damage but if he can lock you down long enough then he can output a lot of damage.

I am kinda tired of repeating myself so I'm going to show some ideas I had before for what could be changed about current Skarner.

Thanks for chiming in! Here are my thoughts on your thoughts.

One way to change Skarner is to make his ult capable of dragging his crystals but have it have a separate cooldown for using it on a crystal. This would allow you to SET UP where you want to put them so you could plan ahead on where you intend to fight. This would actually demonstrate some skill and require proper planing, both to set them up and to make sure you don't place one in a spot you could be zoned from. You'd have to reduce the range of the effects but at least this way you wouldn't be shackled to just fighting in the jungle.

I am opposed to this. I would rather they remove the spires or offer them more compelling gameplay such as how the OP suggests.

Another thing would be to get rid of all the stat shit and instead make it so they give him utility or special effects on his abilities, the kinds of effects that would make him better at dealing with baron and dragon or maybe they'd give him his old passive on his Q again. Part of what makes the current crystals so bad is that they're just stat balls which is a lot of "invisible power" that Riot says they don't like.

I support this. This would be awesome. Skarner relies a lot upon steroids when he should instead rely on gameplay.

Another would be to ditch the activation gimmick entirely and make it so Skarner's abilities, when used on the crystals, do more things. Maybe hitting his Q on a crystal causes it to ring out with a harmonic frequency that deals damage, or silences enemies for half a second, or maybe it slows enemies. Hitting his E on a crystal could cause a large beam of energy to shoot out towards the nearest enemy. Using his W while next to a crystal could apply his shield to all of his allies in range for half the value.

Not sure how I feel about this. It's cool standalone, but because I oppose the first idea and I should be consistent I am opposed to this as well.

If we're talking about changes that involve the removal of the rock crutches, reverting him back to the version of him before the Juggernaut patch would be a fantastic solution that Riot would unfortunately never go for. So if it were something entirely different then perhaps make Skarner more like an actual scorpion, maybe remove his current ult and make his Q have him grab someone for a short time (Like .5 seconds) and make his E be a spammable short duration slow and his main damage source. Maybe make his W a crystal creator that has to be placed in the jungle or a bush and have it give him increased damage and so the idea is to drag someone to their doom into the crystal zone.

This is interesting, I like this a lot. If he somehow created or spread crystals with his kit it would be much more interesting. Maybe kind of like Taliyah's worked ground except like you said, he can hurt enemies by dragging them to it. You've sparked a bunch of ideas in my head as well, so I'll have to think about this some more and maybe post about it.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion!

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

I would personally just rather they remove the rock crutches altogether but I know they won't go for that and so rather than just keep harping on a revert I made those suggestions (For the old post) to try and make the poor state his current kit is in better.

Also, I can't be the only one that thinks they can just outright remove the mana regen on the crystals? Ever since the creation of Hunter's Talisman it's just been a needless waste of power in the budget of his kit.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Ok, I see what you were going for. I respect that. You're making a good effort with things.

yay nibbers1 votes

I was never a Skarner main, but what I liked about him was he was just a simple, fast fighter. I could build Triforce, zoom into the enemy's face then mash Q and beat the crap out of them.

If I'm honest, I don't really know what makes Skarner Skarner. His ult is obviously important, and I liked how his Q used to get faster and faster the more you used it in a fight. He's still mostly the same Skarner really, he's just so reliant on his spires now. That on top of some relatively minor kit changes and he doesn't feel like he used to. Before he felt like a racecar with boxing gloves, now he feels like a racecar with no boxing gloves and more than half the map is mud so he can't go very fast most of the time...

For me, nothing short of a revert would make me truly enjoy Skarner again. Or at the very least, drop the spires and give him his speed back (partial revert I guess). Changes like what OP suggest would be nice though. The spires are way too gimmicky to feel good playing Skarner.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

yah I like this, he still needs a rework of some kind but this is a band aid he needs in the mean time.

Kloqdq2 votes

I like the idea of area control. Skarner being that guy that protects his area is cool. Instead of just random spirals on the map I always like the idea of something like Trundles area where Skarner summons a crystal spire and it does shit. At least then skarner isn't useless for 5 years outside of those areas but also gives skarner players some more control of the game.

Sotenbori1 votes

I totally agree, but I'm also scared of Riot turning Skarner into another two-hit swipe-and-stab champion. His main problems aside from somewhat stale/awkward gameplay need to be mitigated, and I think that's very possible. Just as examples, perhaps have his E become a chargeable, linear AoE that has damage, velocity, and range based on how long you charged it. Have the stacking movespeed on his W become an out-of-combat passive but slower, while increasing when activated and moving towards an enemy champion. Adjust the shield and give him some form of CC resist so he doesn't constantly get kited. Maybe even do something like spawn a field of crystal on takedowns, and have it give a buff and/or restore mana. I don't know, just throwing a bunch of random ideas. Now while I'm obviously not the greatest at designing champion skills, I know that something really needs to be done about Skarner. He really needs a different passive, and better approaches to teamfights without having skills be the same as another champion.

PaffWasTaken6 votes

The general idea of his passive is just a complete failure. He is a tanky-cc monster that now relies more on tower defense than Heimerdinger himself. They shouldn't adjust this passive, they should just REMOVE IT. It's a passive that would be effective on roamer-like junglers, that just proves how Riot completely ignored Skarner's gameplay when they changed him. Personally, I want to see him going through a complete rework and coming back with a more damaging/trader type of diver kit, not with another crappy mechanic added by some employee who just chose how skarner is gonna be reworked by throwing a dice twice to make sure the changes he adds are purely random

Dessert Island1 votes

Agreed, I hate the chore of the mini-game. Literally remove it and maybe give a slight increase to his attack speed base and/or scaling. And keep the move speed burst gained during ult. I really just want his old Q back in some capacity, which gave stacking attack speed and move speed. Maybe make his Q ramp up over 5-6 hits to give him a mini frenzy that briefly hastes (increased move speed/tenacity/slow resistance, just some examples to help him dive) and increases his attack speed ala Kled, which would seem to fit in with this windows of power concept and most importantly doesn't chain him to arbitrary zones.

DeathBurst4 votes

This seems like a decent and reasonable proposal. I support this idea.

I also suggest you link it to Meddler in the next Quick Thought thread, which should be later today.

Bothkinds1 votes

So. I know this isn't the way riot works so I know it won't happen. Scarner needs to just be removed. honestly, the release of rek'sai should have just been scarners rework. Scarner should have been rek'sai.

Hawkefire1 votes

I still believe that the best way to fix Skarner would be to revert this rework. Frankly I am of the opinion that OG Skarner, as in the Skarner that could perma-slow with his Q / passive was actually more healthy and balanced than every other iteration of Skarner that they have made.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

If the spire couldn't be captured while Skarner is within it's empowerment radius, that would fix a lot of the problems with them.

I think the way their captured and the incentive to capture them is there, it's the spires themselves that are underwhelming, and they are too easy for enemies to get.

SociopathFriend1 votes

I honestly like the spires- I don't get why they're so hated on besides the fact that it's a minigame that forces the teams to work around them. I happen to enjoy fighting for my spires and taking chances with my team to control them.

I played old Skarner, he's not THAT different now. Take away the spires for a moment and what was the overall change in playstyle?

First kit (cooldown innate): Q-spam with AA's mixed in, W for defense and movement speed, E for ranged slow, ult target for suppression and nuke.

Second kit (stun innate): Q-spam with AA's mixed in, W for defense and movement speed, E for ranged slow, ult target for suppression and nuke.

Current kit (spires) Q-spam with AA's mixed in, W for defense and movement speed, E for ranged slow that can stun, ult target for suppression. And the Spire minigame.

He could use a rework, sure, but you'd think Riot somehow changed the character entirely just because of the minigame aspect when the rest of his kit has barely been altered. I get that the fine print like making sure you venomed up the right person before nuking with your R is lost but overall he plays pretty much the same except for the minigame. Fans have submitted plenty of requests for a champion to have zones to control like this (or they were back then, obviously these requests stopped after Skarner was reworked) and fans still today request some champions be linked more thoroughly to their lore.

Skarner needed a rework because he was basically a stat-check-king and his lore gave a perfect theme for him to protect his crystals. It made sense for Riot to target him for the change they did.

Champion Skin1 votes

First kit (cooldown innate): Q-spam with AA's mixed in, W for defense and movement speed, E for ranged slow, ult target for suppression and nuke.

In his first kit Empowered Q's slowed didn't they which was quite useful and powerful and his E also gave some healing if I remember correctly which did give it some defensive utility (wasn't much though especially as it still wasn't worth putting more than 1 point into E)

Daetnas1 votes

Or just remove it because it's not fun.

Shepherd o Souls1 votes

I feel like controlling an objective would be cool for a champ's passive or kit, but what isn't cool is forcing something on a champ with a playerbase who loves them for one thing already. I first joined league and acutally got into it deeply without much knowledge of champs or any of the community so I didn't know how much the juggernaut update inpacted the champs, I was just staring at the spires and mordes dragon thinking "wowowwowowowowow cool cool awesome!" Now that I'm really into league I can look back and see how this impacted his playerbase and his champ as a whole. I think the idea of controlling points on a champ can work, but you can't put it on an existing champ, and it needs to be looked at way more than this because even I have to say it's a pretty lazy design and it feels like shit fighting without being near a spire.

Xion The XIV1 votes

I have to agree with this. Outside of a handful of fights Hardly any team fight will happen in the Jungles/Rivers except for Baron and Dragon. The rest of the time those spires are worthless except for a faster jungler clear until the point he gets a triforce in which they don't help as much. I love Skarner but I also know he will not really win any fights against this meta outside of his spires. I truly think his entire kit needs to be changed. It's not a really good idea to have his main defense his W needed to be used to gain a move speed because early on it has a decently log CD.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Or here is a better idea revert this horrible trash rework..he was fine before now he had a crap passive, crap clears , ganking is the same as before

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