Why The LCS/LCK/Worlds only sees ~45 champions

GULAG 4 U·Oct 2, 2016·30 votes·1,834 views

Because the game isn't balanced solely around the Pros, unlike dota2.

The game wasn't balanced for the pros, that's why LCS has so many little picks. One dimensional champs like yi and trynd work okay in casual play but they offer nothing when you can coordinate correctly to shut their asses. If riot decided to completely ignore casual and high elo play and solely balance around the top players, then the results would most likely be similar to Dota2.

70 Comments

MarshbouyOct 2, 20166 votes

inb4 people start saying that it's possible to balance around both pros and normal ranked players

GULAG 4 UOct 2, 20168 votes

It's not, unless riot stops giving a shit about normal play like dota. You'll never see one dimensional champions like Master yi or tryndamere in LCS unless they are completely OP.

MarshbouyOct 2, 20163 votes

Exactly

TacoTheKittenOct 2, 20161 votes

[deleted]

GULAG 4 UOct 2, 20161 votes

It was like what, once? And it was the best LOL player who played him, so I'd expect him to not get fucked over.

SeraphizeOct 2, 20161 votes

Legacy picked Yi in the OPL split 2 grand finals, Tally didn't have as much as he'd thought.

AnidanOct 3, 20161 votes

It was once, and it was Faker... using widely-known broken as hell AP Yi before it was nuked by Riot's orbital NERF cannon.

TehNACHOOct 3, 20161 votes

It was an AD Yi.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 3, 20161 votes

its not about being one dimensional. every single ad carry. is one dimensional. adcs either have items to outdamage the enemy adc. or they are useless. but range>melee.

GULAG 4 UOct 3, 20162 votes

Munch, you're wrong about this. By one-dimensional I meant ability to provide one or little to a team/or your play. Most of the melee carries are only able to kill you and don't provide any utility. Yasuo has some, and his ult gives him teamfight presence, that's why he's one of the few functional melee carries. Aatrox would be a functional one if he was reliable, but he's not.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 3, 20161 votes

am pretty sure am not

GULAG 4 UOct 3, 20161 votes

Melee carries deal more damage and are harder to kill because they are melee. They are also more mobile too.

TeCoolMageOct 3, 20166 votes

I've actually seen comments claiming either, "oh riot always balances for the LC$$$$$$" "Rito y are you balancing for the trash, now everything's bad!!"

People are going to complain either way

VallalanOct 2, 20164 votes

dota 2 is balanced around the fact they have crazy items. that is why they have more diversity. they have such unique powerful items that have insane actives/passives that can enable so many different types of heroes.

in league all the items are basically a stat schtick with the passives and actives being minor in comparison.

When you have an item that can do wonders for a hero who would otherwise be garbage of course you have more diversity.

League would have to fundamentally change its item system and that would take so much time/effort/etc. to create a similar diversity.

not only that, I'm not even sure people would like it once they got it. league has been going good for 6 seasons now and a change that big would fuck it up.

Jet SettOct 2, 20161 votes

BKB for example is the reason why melee carries are viable for actually carrying games.

AnidanOct 3, 20161 votes

What? BKB benefits ranged as much as it does melee. No, the real reason is kit and playstyle differences between ranged and melee. Anti-Mage is damn strong because of how fast he reliably farms and how hard it can be to stop him when he gets going, and hell, he's hard to stop from doing much even when he's behind. Alchemist, Terrorblade, Naga Siren and Meepo also all farm very quickly and can make a ranged hero's life hell with how they play.

Jet SettOct 3, 20161 votes

Yes, and cc plus focus helps deal with them, thus BKB makes them all the more effective. I never stated it's the ONLY reason, but you can't pretend that complete magic and cc immunity doesn't help you stay alive and hurt things. I also never said it didn't help ranged heroes either, so I don't know where this post came from.

flibitydooOct 3, 20161 votes

false BKB provides 10 strength

which on most Strength melees (the majority of strength heroes are melee) means an additional 10 AD. That won't apply on agility/intelligence heroes.

It's the same reason why Heart of Tarasque is better on melees.

OdinakosOct 2, 20161 votes

Both systems have their pros and cons. And i dont prefer it. It streamlines some hero's build path a lot. And i mean a lot in the way that you have no choise but to rush those items. In LoL at least you are gonna go with a subpar second option that isnt as far from first as dota.

It and removes from their identity. Every ~~mage~~ support had sheepstick and cyclone when i played. Characters depending on items abilities to fuction is not considered healthy. Lol has that problem aslo but on a very smaller state.

EndlessSorcererOct 3, 20164 votes

Another factor is that DotA2 has champions with very defined roles and niches while LoL chose a more 'generic' approach.

Many champions in League of Legends have a similar or identical niche. As such, the champion picked will generally be the strongest one available rather than the one who might best fit the team composition.

Hard-counters are also less of an issue in LoL. While some matchups may be unfavourable, you can generally play around them. If you are counterpicked in DotA, you are going to be fucked during the laning phase horribly.

While certain champions in DotA may be considered lower tier, they can still be used to horribly counter another champion to a weakness in the enemy's team composition.

GULAG 4 UOct 3, 20161 votes

Yes, you're right.

Spaceman5pffOct 3, 20162 votes

Riot sorta tries to bust open the meta with designs, though.

Mordekaiser Rework. It didn't really work. (enough said)

Bard was a second attempt at the roaming support (what alistar was originally imagined as before everyone just jungled him) so ofc to encourage roaming they gave him a meh roaming passive and then were like heck yeah lets give him a fuckin god tier laning phase, that'll get him out of lane. It didn't really work.

Yasuo was an attempt at making Melee ADC a viable role. I mean it worked, but fuck that guy.

Zed was released when Mages absolutely dominated the midlane. He was, by design, meant to upset that balance. It worked.

There are more, but I don't think it is worth the effort to list more.

GULAG 4 UOct 3, 20161 votes

Zed was meant to be a jungler.

Yasuo is the only working melee carry with Fiora (and fiora isn't even that good considering LCS doesn't pick her unless she's OP)

Mordekaiser's rework was retarded, how do you make a melee hybrid champ with less XP loss in the bot lane healthy?

Bard does roam, it's just suicide to leave your garbage adc alone.

Spaceman5pffOct 4, 20161 votes

I never said that Zed had to upset that balance as a midlaner.

Yasuo is the only working Melee ADC because he can build full damage and still get 2 flow shields off in one fight + his windwall effectively making him much tankier than any other glass cannon (lets ignore bruiser yas for this purpose since that isn't his intended build)

You pretty much summed up my thoughts on morde.

Yeah bard DOES roam, but not significantly more so than any other non-healer support. While he and Alistar are at the top of the list for roamers, the fact that he roams about as much as THE WEAKEST laning support in the game is pretty sad.

GULAG 4 UOct 4, 20161 votes

You're def not wrong.

EedatOct 2, 20163 votes

DotA2: Balanced solely around professional/challenger

HotS: Balanced around the majority of the players (Silver)

LoL: Balance somewhere in between (Plat/Diamond)

This is the guide on which MOBA you want to play

it be lìke thatOct 2, 20163 votes

someone did the math and the dota champion playrate was ever so slightly higher than leagues. but league has more champions. its FAR closer than people make it sound.

not like 90% of dota champs see tournament play.

AnidanOct 3, 20161 votes

At least over 90% of DotA champions do appear at The International.

AirKingNeoOct 2, 20162 votes

But the entire season has been 90% pro play changes.

GULAG 4 UOct 2, 20161 votes

No, it was 2 patches.

AirKingNeoOct 3, 20162 votes

No, it was the entire season. My evidence is the entire patch notes of this season.

GULAG 4 UOct 3, 20161 votes

The why did they nerf master yi?

Spaceman5pffOct 3, 20161 votes

MasterYi [sated devourer] item 3124 item 3146 item 3009 item 3156 item 3742

GULAG 4 UOct 3, 20161 votes

He wasn't good in lcs, and never was, he only was when AP yi was OP. And that's not how sated devourer yi builds, it's titanic hydra not gunblade (well some builds anyways). I was proving riot didn't solely balance around LCS this eason.

Spaceman5pffOct 4, 20161 votes

Actually, before the nerfs to his E, he did build like this, because the AOE from the (at the time) Rageblade scaled with AP and AD, so he would get gunblade on top of it and become an unstoppable drain-tanking assassin that got nerfed pretty damn fast. Sure it wasn't in LCS, but you asked why they nerfed master yi, and I listed you the build that was terrorizing soloQ.

GULAG 4 UOct 4, 20161 votes

Yeah gunblade worked too thinking about it a bit more, so I give that to you. Conclusion is Yi made soloq busted, and airking is wrong.

AirKingNeoOct 3, 20161 votes

Because I said 90% proplay changes, not 100%. There are SOME, but 90% are proplay related.

GULAG 4 UOct 3, 20161 votes

Eh no?

Yasuo was not popular in pro play for the entire season, nerfs during pros patch, jesus stop crying. It's just not real.

AirKingNeoOct 3, 20161 votes

So again, yasuo being part of the 10% means what? You need more examples then Yi and Yasuo because we've had more changes than that this season. As I said, 90%, NINETY PERCENT of the balance changes this season are related to pro play.

Meep ManOct 2, 20162 votes

If that was true, we would probably still have Devourer and it would have been buffed

AirKingNeoOct 3, 20161 votes

No, Devourer was in pro play. It's called Shyvana.

Spaceman5pffOct 3, 20161 votes

Yeah by one team that put up mediocre performances with it. Sure Hai ran Devourer Shyvana on their infamous gauntlet run, but it never proved to be as powerful or more powerful than the existing meta. Wins do not directly correlate to power level.

AirKingNeoOct 3, 20161 votes

Shyvana was played during tank meta of season 6, a lot. It was pick ban.

UnpaladinOct 4, 20161 votes

I've been saying this since before halfway through the season. I don't understand how anyone thinks it wasn't based around pro play. A lot of really obvious gameplay issues would have been fixed if Riot unstuck themselves from pro play for even a second, but for each one they never did until it already ravaged their game.

AirKingNeoOct 4, 20161 votes

No, you don't understand. They focus so much on proplay, that they have purposefully let problems exist for the sake of proplay.

Cassiopeia, Kennen, Jayce, Syndra, Viktor, Jhin, Karma, and so many others left completely over powered it's disgusting. Viktor isn't meta much more, but did they ever fix his problem of too much damage? No, he was outed because no more lane swaps and outclassed by more oppressive Syndra.

Seriously, when was the last time Riot actually just nerfed a champion's main problem?

UnpaladinOct 5, 20161 votes

You're right, that is a shitty problem too. Riot balance team needs to stop pussyfooting around and actually have some consistency.

Meep ManOct 2, 20162 votes

To be honest, I would rather LoL be balanced a little more like Dota 2 since all of the heroes there are picked in Normal play as well. Very few see little play

Finn Teh HumanOct 2, 20161 votes

Thing is pro player and high elo play is pretty much showing the champions at the highest skill level. And if you were to buff a certain champion that was already perfect in high elo then someone who masters said champion could really abuse it in low elo. But Tryn and Yi are also more of solo que carries. If you do extremely well then you're most likely able to carry a game even if the other lanes don't do so well because they snowball so hard.

GULAG 4 UOct 2, 20161 votes

You can, if the enemy doesn't coordinate and CC your arse to death. One dimensional champions do not see play because the Pros play the champions at (Sometimes) the apex of their strength and are able to exploit everything about the said champion. This causes that low skillcap one-dimensional champions such as yi to not be played.

EDIT: Why don't you prove me wrong instead of mindlessly downvoting?