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End the Zed argument once and for all (Poll inside)

Desiderium··4 votes·2,158 views

I have 240k mastery points on this champion. I have mained him since release. Literally. (I mean literally in the truest sense of the word.)

However, I am not here to defend his balance state.

I'm not going to tell you why he's balanced or why he's fair. I'm not going to try to change your mind.

Because there is one thing that I can actually agree on when people complain about him - his ultimate since it was reworked to make the shadow appear at cast location.

The poll question is: Do you want Zed's ultimate to go back to its release state? This would mean a few things:

  • Untargetability duration reduced to 0.35 seconds (only enough time to dodge a single skillshot or targeted ability)

  • Shadow appears behind target, Zed appears in front.

  • Range limit to jump to R shadow

  • R-jump 0.5 sec delay removed

  • W shadow speed increased to 2500, range reduced to 600 from 700 (this buff is necessary because Zed would be a sitting duck after he ults if his ult was in this state. It would also give some escape potential to skilled Zed players, since this change to the ultimate would take away a MASSIVE portion of his escape potential)

Zed becomes more dedicated to his target, and becomes more mobile but in a MUCH SMALLER AREA. He is dedicating himself to you while only leaving a small chance of escape.

Would you be happier with Zed if he was back to his release state?

54 Comments

SwapShadows7 votes

Here's the only thing you need to know

take every assassin in the game except zed and give them 10 free kills, they will 99% carry that game due to having uncounterable instakill kits.

now give zed 10 free kills and watch them counter him and still have a chance at winning the game.

I think that's all that needs to be said on why Zed is actually a healthy assassin and that everyone seems to forget how disgusting it was to play against other assassins in their primes.

TNHA Baritone2 votes

So biased. You're making Zed mains look bad. 1) You can counter every assassin.

What you just said is similar to me saying: Give Karma 10 kills and she will do nothing as opposed to giving every other Mage kills. Which is false...

SwapShadows3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8e3Fhr3O,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-02-06T17:37:23.644+0000)

So biased. You're making Zed mains look bad. 1) You can counter every assassin.

What you just said is similar to me saying: Give Karma 10 kills and she will do nothing as opposed to giving every other Mage kills. Which is false...

no I think you're misunderstanding.

Zed is the first assassin in the game to not function like the rest of the cancer that we have, he is the only assassin in the game with meaningful counterplay. Even with a godly headstart he can still easily lose the game because he has one of the highest amounts of counters in the entire champion roster.

I like playing assassins but there is nothing healthy about champions like diana,talon, akali etc

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Every Assassin is countered by CC, I don't think that Zed is affected by CC more than others. He can build QSS if he wants. People may buy Zhonyas but that counters Rengar, Talon, Diana, and nearly every other assassin.

Also Diana Talon and Akali have to actually get close to their target and STAY THERE without escape. I'm not complaining about this niche spell that Zed has but I'm just showing you that those listed champions have to stay near the potential CC in order to get kills while Zed can teleport out.

Desiderium1 votes

The difference here is that if Zed teleports out too soon, he may not have passed the threshold of damage for his ultimate to kill his target. That's why he has the option of being able to teleport out. It's the best case scenario. It's all about tradeoffs in design.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Yes, which is why you need to main Zed if you want to crap on enemy teams. He isn't some "let me pick him so I can easy face-roll"

You must know how to play him and if you do then you can abuse his true strengths such as the teleporting out. However if you don't know his damage or how to play him then his ult might as well serve as a weakness.

SwapShadows2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8e3Fhr3O,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-06T17:58:49.201+0000)

Every Assassin is countered by CC, I don't think that Zed is affected by CC more than others. He can build QSS if he wants. People may buy Zhonyas but that counters Rengar, Talon, Diana, and nearly every other assassin.

Also Diana Talon and Akali have to actually get close to their target and STAY THERE without escape. I'm not complaining about this niche spell that Zed has but I'm just showing you that those listed champions have to stay near the potential CC in order to get kills while Zed can teleport out.

it's a fair trade?

after he teleports out he almost can't do anything due to a) energy being one of the worst resources past laning phase and it forces you to wait a long time to get back in a fight and b) it's hard for him to do anything against a team if he isn't ahead without his ult

Other assassins like diana or kassadin can constantly spam destructive abilities, Zed is gated by energy which people seem to hate so much ironically.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Other assassins like Diana or Assassins have HEAVY mana costs. Energy regenerates rapidly. If anything teleporting out prevents the enemy from retaliating AND lets his energy and cooldowns return to him. If he lands everything, Zed can kill without his ult if he is fed. (10 + Kills is the example you game)

Desiderium1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8e3Fhr3O,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-02-06T18:08:43.829+0000)

Other assassins like Diana or Assassins have HEAVY mana costs. Energy regenerates rapidly.

This argument is flawed. Heavily.

There are different situations in which mana is advantageous, and energy is advantageous. Outside of the laning phase, energy is more of a detriment than mana. This is common knowledge. And if he goes back and waits for his energy and cooldowns like you said, his ult is on a 60 second cooldown at level 16 so what does it matter when it takes 20 seconds for a full energy bar to return anyway? And that's only 30 seconds before QSS comes back as well. And we all know teamfights don't occur every 60 seconds.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Seeing that ALL of Zed's energy costs are under 100 (and some even scale down) To do the basic combo at level 16 I could only imagine it costing : a little bit less than 200 with the energy addition when you hit both targets.

Also, since Zed's platform for getting fed is almost always through early game roaming or lane phase, it doesn't hurt him too much that energy can have its disadvantages out of lane phase.

QSS has a 90 second Cool down so you can get in two ult at level sixty (if the person who has it even knows how to QSS it unlike me) but like you said team-fights don't occur every 60 seconds (that was a good point)

BUT THAT ALSO MEANS, Zed can QSS CC in that time period too

SwapShadows1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8e3Fhr3O,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-02-06T18:08:43.829+0000)

Other assassins like Diana or Assassins have HEAVY mana costs. Energy regenerates rapidly. If anything teleporting out prevents the enemy from retaliating AND lets his energy and cooldowns return to him. If he lands everything, Zed can kill without his ult if he is fed. (10 + Kills is the example you game)

every mana assassin in the game will have enough mana for an entire teamfight to use a ton of rotations, usually by midgame this becomes possible.

Zed can kill his targets without his ultimate but only under certain circumstances, once it's midgame++ and the adc has a few items and possibly QSS and a few peelers he will never die to a zed that isn't using his ult and even with ult a qss will still stop him.

SwapShadows1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8e3Fhr3O,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-06T17:58:49.201+0000)

Every Assassin is countered by CC, I don't think that Zed is affected by CC more than others. He can build QSS if he wants. People may buy Zhonyas but that counters Rengar, Talon, Diana, and nearly every other assassin.

Also Diana Talon and Akali have to actually get close to their target and STAY THERE without escape. I'm not complaining about this niche spell that Zed has but I'm just showing you that those listed champions have to stay near the potential CC in order to get kills while Zed can teleport out.

CC is very effective against Zed because his kit is focused heavily on his mobility,swapping and 3 second deathmark. CC doesn't have the same effectiveness on every champion, a malphite doesn't care that he got stunned but a leblanc does.

a deathmark can be completely wasted just from getting cc'd once which hurts quite a bit, with other assassins they don't depend on a 3 second bomb.

Zhonyas counters every type of engage but a forced zhonyas can still leave you in a bad spot since most likely you got caught out.

Desiderium1 votes

You're not wrong; I can promise you that. Zed is healthy and counterable and has many nuances in his kit that make it easier for others to play against. I don't disagree with you. The thing is, many people especially in low skill levels have problems with him anyway. And the BIGGEST problem they have with him is with how safe he is with his ultimate. It wasn't like that when he was released. The point of the poll is that I want to see if people would find Zed less overbearing, especially to lower skilled opponents, if he was changed in this way.

Many people that frequent this forum are VERY low skill, that's why you see so many complaints about Zed. I want to see if people would still complain about him if his biggest problem went away, in a way that wasn't a direct nerf OR buff to him. I want to see what these people think and how it would change.

Penns3 votes

Fizz for example is countered by Zhonyas and QSS just as well, probably even harder than Zed because he has ranged poke lol.

SwapShadows2 votes

{quoted}

Fizz for example is countered by Zhonyas and QSS just as well, probably even harder than Zed because he has ranged poke lol.

Maybe when fizz gets reworked into actually needing his ult to kill squishies

Penns1 votes

You could say the same about Zed, especially when they got 10 free kills :p If theyre not fed, both need their ults to kill squishies tho

JQKAndrei1 votes

fizz defenetly doesn't.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Not true.

He would need to rotate his spells several times and an enemy would be dumb for 1) Not going exhaust 2) Not going MR 3) Sitting there half hp near a Fizz.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

This is also very true.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe when fizz gets reworked into actually needing his ult to kill squishies

This is a true point as well.

Rain NT1 votes

Kassadin in his prime.. even thinking about it is rough lmao, Zed in his prime was pretty obnoxious too though but now theres so much counter for him lmao zhonya QSS boom hes dead, not to mention champions, Bard, Kindred, Fizz, Lux, Kayle, anyone thats tanky but does decent damage.

TheOvermind1 votes

well i saw a person complain about zed not being healthy because he can get in and out clean while the target being assasinated with relaitve ease, and the fact that he doesn't get punished for making a mistake or not getting the kill and just blinking back to safety. he compared him to assassins like katarina and talon saying that they have to go in and get the kill to be succesfull( kat resets, talon no way out ) LMFAO, kat and talon have 0 counterplay if fed. If u see one fed, kiss your victory good beye, might as well tab out of the client.

TNHA Baritone3 votes

You're sorta posing an impossible question that naturally defemds his current balance by comparing it to a previous change.

Desiderium1 votes

You'd only be right if his previous iteration was objectively stronger than his current.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

I don't know bud. It seems that way. Was it better? I can't really tell. (PS : I still upvoted, I'm just looking for you to help me understand things)

Desiderium2 votes

It was stronger in some ways (short range mobility and more access to a double shuriken hit) and weaker in others (he can't stray too far from his shadows or he can't jump to them, he can't jump very far away, he can't chase you endlessly, he's untargetable for a shorter amount of time)

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Hmm..Someone downvoted you but that was actually informative. Thanks.

Desiderium2 votes

I'm not sure why I got downvoted either, but oh well. I'm happy to help

ValyrianBlade2 votes

No, he would be right if his previous iteration was weaker than his current, but also imbalanced and OP.

Which would by transitivity mean his current state would need to be more imbalanced and OP.

Which you disagree with because you think he's balanced. The post here claims you're posing an impossible question because your response options only allow 3 cases: the previous iteration is balanced, or the current iteration is balanced, or both are balanced. It does not allow the option of both being imbalanced.

I'm not arguing either way. I'm simply saying it's clear to see your bias in your poll. If you added a fourth option of "4) Zed is inherently imbalanced and should be removed from the game" I would actually bet that it would receive the most votes. Which doesn't mean it's right, it simply means that most players dislike the champion and would vote for that option.

Which is why we don't do polls for balance changes. It's the same reason why governments don't do polls to the general public (i.e. a referendum) for every change they propose, and corporations don't poll their employees/stakeholders for every decision they make. In short, people are stupid and self-serving and will often make the wrong decision (as determined by overall well-being) in such a poll.

Desiderium1 votes

There is no bias in the poll. The 3rd option clearly states nothing but "I'm not sure."

It depends on how you think of that statement. That was my intention. You can think of it as: "I'm not sure which is more balanced" OR "I'm not sure and I want him deleted" that's the point of that option.

There is no bias.

Besides, this discussion isn't about deleting Zed anyway. This isn't even about his balance in the bigger picture. It's about one of two options. Your argument about my poll is entirely flawed.

ValyrianBlade4 votes

That's laughable.

There is clear bias.

The "I'm not sure" option very clearly indicates you're not sure between the prior options. Even if we're to accept that you intended it to offer an option for people that don't think he's balanced, your poll is still biased.

You have two options explicitly stating he either is, or was, balanced.

You have zero options explicitly stating he is imbalanced.

You have one option saying nothing.

By definition your poll is biased.

Desiderium1 votes

That's completely opposite of my intention, but whatever you say. Just remember that sometimes, what you think is true isn't always what's true.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

I agree with the poll options being heavily one-sided. Let's not forget, a low elo player that gets beat by Zed every time may claim that Zed is broken while someone who beats Zed every time may not.

ValyrianBlade3 votes

Yea, I'm not saying he's wrong.

I used to play a lot of Ahri and I actually liked the Zed matchup. It was supposed to be a skill matchup that goes slightly in Zed's favor but I felt pretty confident in that matchup.

I think he has some flaws as a champion (mostly he doesn't pay enough for being mana-less) but is overall okay with me. There are a lot of champions I'd want fixed / reworked / severely nerfed / outright removed before Zed.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

Yea, I'm not saying he's wrong.

I used to play a lot of Ahri and I actually liked the Zed matchup. It was supposed to be a skill matchup that goes slightly in Zed's favor but I felt pretty confident in that matchup.

I think he has some flaws as a champion (mostly he doesn't pay enough for being mana-less) but is overall okay with me. There are a lot of champions I'd want fixed / reworked / severely nerfed / outright removed before Zed.

Ahri counters zed....

his ult is a free charm for ahri every single time, there is no way he can dodge it.

Desiderium2 votes

It depends entirely on when those spells are used.

That's why it's called a skill matchup.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

It depends entirely on when those spells are used.

That's why it's called a skill matchup.

I disagree completely.

Once zed ult's and gets charmed he has already wasted his ultimate completely, he will not be able to do enough damage to even scratch ahri because she can at this point force him to take turret shots or ult away and completely waste every single second of his ultimate.

This matchup is heavily in Ahris favor and forces Zed to heavily outplay because he is at an disadvantage.

Desiderium1 votes

You obviously don't play Zed at a high level.

SwapShadows1 votes

what are you talking about?

every single thing I just said is a fact, you cannot disprove that ahri will charm zed automatically after his ultimate.

don't be an ignorant sore loser when your argument gets debunked.

Desiderium1 votes

My friend, it doesn't take much practice to see that Ahri vs. Zed is purely a skill matchup. Nothing is in the favor of EITHER champion (Ahri OR Zed) in this matchup.

If you think either of them has an advantage, you are terrible at the opposite champion.

It is a simple fact.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

My friend, it doesn't take much practice to see that Ahri vs. Zed is purely a skill matchup. Nothing is in the favor of EITHER champion (Ahri OR Zed) in this matchup.

If you think either of them has an advantage, you are terrible at the opposite champion.

It is a simple fact.

I just stated a clear advantage ahri has over Zed.

ignorant?

ValyrianBlade1 votes

As soon as Ahri misses a charm Zed ults her and it's a free kill.

Actually, as soon as ahri even hits a charm, once Zed gets out of the CC and he ults her for a free kill.

Ahri cannot use charm in the entire laning phase post 6 unless it's during a gank. That's a pretty heavy penalty for a champion whose entire kit is built around dashing to land a charm... the only way for Ahri to not die to Zed is to charm him after he ults - and even when she lands it she won't kill him unless her jungler is there or he's under her turret.

Ahri has a 49.12% win rate against Zed in platinum+ ranked. That favors our stance on this argument.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

As soon as Ahri misses a charm Zed ults her and it's a free kill.

Actually, as soon as ahri even hits a charm, once Zed gets out of the CC and he ults her for a free kill.

Ahri cannot use charm in the entire laning phase post 6 unless it's during a gank. That's a pretty heavy penalty for a champion whose entire kit is built around dashing to land a charm... the only way for Ahri to not die to Zed is to charm him after he ults - and even when she lands it she won't kill him unless her jungler is there or he's under her turret.

Ahri has a 49.12% win rate against Zed in platinum+ ranked. That favors our stance on this argument.

Did you magically forget that Ahri has a movement speed bonus on her Q and 3 dashes along with flash?

Ahri doesn't even need charm to escape Zed, not even in the slightest but she does need it if she intends to 1v1 rather than escape.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Ahri's MS buff doesn't help much when Zed has two dashes (ult and W).

Ahri's ult IS definitely an ability to escape Zed. However it has two problems:

  1. Ulting before Zed ults you to get out of his range just results in you blowing your cooldown and him ulting you the next time he's in range when your ult is on cooldown.
  2. Ulting after Zed ults you can pull him closer to (or in to if you're lucky) your turret which actually gives Ahri a chance at the kill, but the Zed player will just blink back to his shadow after charm and will most likely survive the 1-2 tower hits. And guess what, Ahri just blew her dashes and is now a free gank.

The counterplay Ahri has to Zed is to:

  1. Hit 6 first, as if he hits it first you're dead as you don't have ult.
  2. Ult after he ults you and drag him in to your turret. Flash if necessary.
  3. Land the charm, and your whole combo + ignite
  4. Use the second ult dash after your combo to dash away from your turret and towards his shadow.
  5. Use the third dish to get back within fighting range of him. Proceed to auto / use another Q for the kill.

However this play requires a lot more counterplay on Ahri's part than Zeds... Zed literally presses R on Ahri and it's fairly high reward / low risk. Ahri has to do a lot more, and it's a lot higher risk - she can't go within melee range or Zed will outright kill her with autos before she gets Q back.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

Ahri's MS buff doesn't help much when Zed has two dashes (ult and W).

Ahri's ult IS definitely an ability to escape Zed. However it has two problems:

  1. Ulting before Zed ults you to get out of his range just results in you blowing your cooldown and him ulting you the next time he's in range when your ult is on cooldown.
  2. Ulting after Zed ults you can pull him closer to (or in to if you're lucky) your turret which actually gives Ahri a chance at the kill, but the Zed player will just blink back to his shadow after charm and will most likely survive the 1-2 tower hits. And guess what, Ahri just blew her dashes and is now a free gank.

The counterplay Ahri has to Zed is to:

  1. Hit 6 first, as if he hits it first you're dead as you don't have ult.
  2. Ult after he ults you and drag him in to your turret. Flash if necessary.
  3. Land the charm, and your whole combo + ignite
  4. Use the second ult dash after your combo to dash away from your turret and towards his shadow.
  5. Use the third dish to get back within fighting range of him. Proceed to auto / use another Q for the kill.

However this play requires a lot more counterplay on Ahri's part than Zeds... Zed literally presses R on Ahri and it's fairly high reward / low risk. Ahri has to do a lot more, and it's a lot higher risk - she can't go within melee range or Zed will outright kill her with autos before she gets Q back.

why does your post have a bronze 5 ahri player against a diamond zed player?

im sorry but there is absolutely no way that a ahri has a disadvantage against Zed, try again next year.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

I completely agree.

Gunpoint2 votes

Honestly, I hated Zed before they nerfed him or whatever, but I never admittedly noticed or actually read what those nerfs were. All I know is that right now he doesn't seem to be that much of a problem.

Azure Hamster2 votes

"I have 240k mastery points on this champion. I have mained him since release. Literally. (I mean literally in the truest sense of the word.)"

Argument from authority fallacy. This shouldn't matter if your arguments are sound. :)

Caitlyn

Doodoo Daddy1 votes

I think the fact he outclasses every assassin in game with unreal mobility damage and becoming untargetable is a bit ridiculous, though i think its the wrong time to talk about his balance with the new assassin item coming out, that will require some massive tweaks to zed and this discussion will start over again.

SwapShadows3 votes

{quoted}

I think the fact he outclasses every assassin in game with unreal mobility damage and becoming untargetable is a bit ridiculous, thought i think its the wrong time to talk about his balance with the new assassin item coming out, that will require some massive tweaks to zed and this discussion will start over again.

Pretty false.

Everytime any assassin but zed is meta they become instant pick/ban because who doesn't want Talon Diana Akali Kassadin ETC because it is extremely hard to counter them whilst they are extremely good at killing and roaming.

Zed doesn't outclass when he can unreliably kill a target.

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