Why are hecarim and mundo the only late game bruisers

Affinity2·Jan 11, 2015·1 votes·2,813 views

Who can actually carry a game with getting kited infinitely?

Is this now a design space that riot doesnt want to work at anymore?

It seems like we have utility bruisers (j4, vi, lee sin) fighters (xin, irelia, jax, voli and alot of other champs) and bruisers who look like carries but get kited to hell and back.

so why dont we have any bruisers that are healthy and can occupy a truthfully carry based role in the late game (because lets be honest mundo and hecarim got nerfed pretty quick when they were relevant in the meta game)

Would anyone care to elaborate

EDIT*

I dont think you guys are understand what the difference between a tank and a bruiser is.....

Tanks are mostly utility focused...... buisers are mostly damage focused.....

the closest hybrid we have to a bruiser tank is shen.... as his primary playpattern in teamfights is to go after a carry or do damage to peel. while at the same time his ult and his e work as peel tools.

therefore hecarim and mundo are bruisers and maokai is a tank. alistar is a tank (although with trin force he might very well be a bruiser....

the point is we dont have any bruisers who start out weak have a ok mid game and a great late game..... nasus gets kited jax gets kited irelia has a good midgame ect.

the closest two we have are mundo and hecarim who scale into the ultra late better than all other bruisers (not counting things like maokai or other tanks who have utility) and they both have hefty nerfs attached to them

25 Comments

JamareeJan 11, 20152 votes

Irelia?

TehNACHOJan 11, 20152 votes

The problem with most damage based bruisers is that they are literally walking balls of stats.

To put it into an example, the most skillful part about Mundo's kit is aiming your Cleavers and maybe timing your Ultimate well. Past that, nothing else about him that isn't just a pile of stats on a champion. In a situation where Mundo is overly fed, or in a patch where Mundo is way way too strong, you can literally right click people to death because your damage is already high enough for it, and, as a bruiser, you are basically unkillable anyway.

For a more macro example, think of a champion who is virtually unkillable due to raw defensive stats, hits like a truck without building basically any damage items, and has so much built in tenacity that they are unstoppable anyway. This is how the damage bruiser do. While you can argue it's a niche that deserves to be filled in at least some way, the fact of the matter is that gameplay around these kinds of champions are super binary as hell. It's either the bruiser in question is overtuned and is killing everybody while at the same time is completely unkillable, or the bruiser in question isn't strong enough to do virtually anything. There's so little wiggle room in terms of balance when you create a tanky DPS champion like that.

StoningtonJan 11, 20152 votes

If Mundo's a bruiser, I don't know what a tank is.

Hecarim a great late game bruiser?

OK - Rammus

TehNACHOJan 11, 20151 votes

I personally always defined it as this:

Fighter Tanks/Bruisers build tanky to defend themselves. These are champions like Shyvana or Mundo, who dive or literally walk into the enemy team constantly to create their team fighting presence. Utility/True Tanks build tanky to defend others. These are champions like (tank) Cho'Gath or Braum, who have a buttload of utility effects and defensive abilities designed for protecting their teammates.

Leti the YetiJan 11, 20151 votes

i dont think it really matters if theyre building to protect others or for themselves cuz they are still building the same items .- .

TehNACHOJan 11, 20151 votes

A Mundo building item 3065 item 3143 item 3083 next to a Braum building item 3190 item 3110 item 3800 certainly do function the same way.

DWT12345Jan 12, 20152 votes

Renekton Garen Nasus Darius

AtheosisXJan 12, 20152 votes

Nasus perma-slows people late game. He isn't that easy to kite really. Certainly no more so than Mundo. Plus unlike Mundo he can actually kill people in a reasonable timeframe.

TheTwerkinatorJan 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Nasus perma-slows people late game. He isn't that easy to kite really. Certainly no more so than Mundo. Plus unlike Mundo he can actually kill people in a reasonable timeframe.

That and add on the fact if he's able to farm his Q enough, he hits like a truck.

SachabotJan 12, 20151 votes

I want you guys to go down and look at his responses. The OP doesn't really understand what any of those words mean, he's expecting everyone to conform to his definitions without defining them for us, and then he'll bitch at you until you give up if you don't agree with him.

Affinity2Jan 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I want you guys to go down and look at his responses. The OP doesn't really understand what any of those words mean, he's expecting everyone to conform to his definitions without defining them for us, and then he'll bitch at you until you give up if you don't agree with him.

Ask what your confused about and i would be happy to elaborate. Ill admit clarity was not my goal with the last post however i stand by everything i said as truthful as well as factual.

Affinity2Jan 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I want you guys to go down and look at his responses. The OP doesn't really understand what any of those words mean, he's expecting everyone to conform to his definitions without defining them for us, and then he'll bitch at you until you give up if you don't agree with him.

Lets observe my statement about mundo's w. It has a flat cost asosciated with each level. This means that the larger health pool mundo has the longer he can keep his w on. This also means for each second he has his w on he is now losing less percentage hp per second he has w enabled. This means for every point of hp he has if burning agony were also dealing damage to an opponent the opponent would be losing % hp at a static rate while mundo is now losing less % translating into a better in combat scenario. The ratio on w for ap is poor so that the statment i just said is intended to remain true by the game developers. This is an obvious and intended interaction and it is a key formula for all bruisers. Fighters use cc and utility to mitigate damage rather than stats. While its true that most bruisers are also fighters and vice versa it is not always true.

Now i would appreciate not being downvoted into oblivion just because u think you have these preconceived notions perpetuated by some of the playerbase.

NubeelJan 12, 20151 votes

Yeah I know what you mean.

I played Mundo a few weeks ago and was pretty fed and full items. Basically walked a Draven halfway across the map before I managed to kill him.

redniwediSJan 11, 20151 votes

Bruisers typically take on a tank role late game, if you're trying to be a mid game bruiser in the late game it usually won't work.

TheI3igDaddyJan 11, 20151 votes

Because in order for bruisers to be viable, their damage and tankiness needs to be JUST perfect. What I mean is, they can't have too much of both. Otherwise, they become oppressive and hard to kill, while being able to dive squishy carries without much fear. That's what happened during League of Warmogs, because the item gave the user such a good tanky powerspike that they could then use it to survive skirmishes with ease.

SmokingPuffinJan 12, 20151 votes

I dont think you guys are understand what the difference between a tank and a bruiser is..... Tanks are mostly utility focused...... buisers are mostly damage focused.....

I think you're proposing an exciting new definition of bruiser here, and that's why people are getting confused.

Mundo is a disruption tank. His role is to not die and force opponents to attack him. He doesn't build any offense.

Irelia is a bruiser. Her role is to dive the MVP and take their head. She builds a triforce into tanky stuff.

Affinity2Jan 11, 2015

I dont think you guys are understand what the difference between a tank and a bruiser is.....

Tanks are mostly utility focused...... buisers are mostly damage focused.....

therefore hecarim and mundo are bruisers and maokai is a tank. alistar is a tank (although with trin force he might very well be a bruiser....

the point is we dont have any bruisers who start out weak have a ok mid game and a great late game..... nasus gets kited jax gets kited irelia has a good midgame ect.

ModThe DjinnJan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}jax gets kited

Are we looking at the same Jax? The one with the 6-second cooldown 700 range jump, innate crowd control, and who typically builds Trinity Force for +movespeed and more movespeed on hit? The one who works really well with BoRK and Randuins, two items that both allow him to stick to targets?

Jax, the poster-child for late-game scaling hyper-carry Bruiser? That Jax?

Also Irelia, queen of late-game bruisers, with a dash, innate tenacity to avoid CC, and a built in slow-stun. Again, a Trinity Force / BoRK / Randun's character.

Jarvan IV is another one: he's sometimes a bit tankier, but he makes an incredible bruiser if build right. His Q+E combo, his W slow and his Ult make him hard to get away from.

You're underestimating the damage a Bruiser Vi can dish out, all while having great chasing power.

Also, while Nasus gets kited, saying he's not a late-game character is a flat-out lie. He may get kited, but he'll slaughter anyone who can't get away (spoilers...someone WILL be unable to escape), and he can single-handedly fell towers within a few seconds.

Finally, there's Trundle: Not the hardest to kite, but his slows + innate speed boost + synergy with BorK and Randuins make him a potential nightmare in straight-up bruiser duels.

...I'd put most of these characters above Hecarim and Mundo as far as late-game bruisers go, actually.

TehNACHOJan 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8RH7yApE,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-01-11T04:51:07.101+0000)> Are we looking at the same Jax? The one with the 6-second cooldown 700 range jump

Actually, since it's easily justifiable to build Jax like a raid boss, it's usually a 3.6 second cool down.

SachabotJan 12, 20151 votes

To be fair, he'd just die sad and alone if he couldn't do that.

Affinity2Jan 11, 2015

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8RH7yApE,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-01-11T04:51:07.101+0000)

Are we looking at the same Jax? The one with the 6-second cooldown 700 range jump, innate crowd control, and who typically builds Trinity Force for +movespeed and more movespeed on hit? The one who works really well with BoRK and Randuins, two items that both allow him to stick to targets?

Jax, the poster-child for late-game scaling hyper-carry Bruiser? That Jax?

Also Irelia, queen of late-game bruisers, with a dash, innate tenacity to avoid CC, and a built in slow-stun. Again, a Trinity Force / BoRK / Randun's character.

Jarvan IV is another one: he's sometimes a bit tankier, but he makes an incredible bruiser if build right. His Q+E combo, his W slow and his Ult make him hard to get away from.

You're underestimating the damage a Bruiser Vi can dish out, all while having great chasing power.

Also, while Nasus gets kited, saying he's not a late-game character is a flat-out lie. He may get kited, but he'll slaughter anyone who can't get away (spoilers...someone WILL be unable to escape), and he can single-handedly fell towers within a few seconds.

Finally, there's Trundle: Not the hardest to kite, but his slows + innate speed boost + synergy with BorK and Randuins make him a potential nightmare in straight-up bruiser duels.

...I'd put most of these characters above Hecarim and Mundo as far as late-game bruisers go, actually.

Im talking about a CARRY the one who does the damage...... hecarim and mundo are by far the closest thing we have to ultra scaling bruiser

AND FUCK YEA JAX GETS KITED HARD. go play any game above gold and your stuck on the peel sqaud. and damn straight im saying nasus isnt a late game character lol.... hes a mid to late game snowballer at best. when you rely on one stat resistances as your entire scaling you kind of get fucked by void staff and lw. Irelia's damage flat out falls off too. shes a without a doubt a safe mid game snowballer.

maokai exists burst assassins exist. with so much peel in the game you might as well peel for anyone who attempts to dive your own backline. Im not underestimating shit. im saying with 6 items we have no effective bruisers. Late game j4 and vi are akin to tanks because your praising their utility in your own post.
DAMAGE IS THE NAME OF THE GAME YOU CANT BUILD TANKY WITHOUT GETTING BLOWN UP SO YOU MIGHT AS WELL BUILD DAMAGE.

Mundo and hecarim dont get kited and they do have excellent carry based play patterns focused around dealing as much damage as posible in a teamfight. as opposed to an assassin or tank playpattern which you have your irelia's jax's vi's that you mentioned in your post

ModThe DjinnJan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}Im talking about a CARRY the one who does the damage...... hecarim and mundo are by far the closest thing we have to ultra scaling bruiser

...you are aware that Jax currently outscales Hecarim and Mundo in terms of damage, and has always done so, right? Build both to full build and have them duel: see who wins. Spoilers: it's almost definitely going to be Jax.

AND FUCK YEA JAX GETS KITED HARD. go play any game above gold and your stuck on the peel sqaud.

He has more gapclosers and CC than Mundo, more sticking power than Hecarim (since Hecarim has just his Ultimate and his E), and more damage than both.

im saying with 6 items we have no effective bruisers.
Jax and Irelia are 6-item bruisers. Almost by definition. They always have been. Saying otherwise really just means you don't know what makes these characters strong. Jax's innate attack speed, low cooldown magic damage, high physical damage, CC, and mobility make him a hybrid damage threat with an incredibly durable chassis, and Tri-force + BoRK into tank makes him basically indestructible while dealing damage that Mundo can only dream of matching.

Irelia's amazing sustain + scaling True Damage on attacks makes BoRK incredibly strong on her, even as she scales into the super-late game. There's a reason you need to stop Irelia farming: she becomes one of the scariest bruisers in the game.

Late game j4 and vi are akin to tanks because your praising their utility in your own post.

Bruisers can have CC too, boss. Or have you never seen a Bork/Tri-Force Jarvan go to town on your Carry and blow him up instantly before dueling your Tank to death?

Let's talk about Jarvan IV and Irelia currently, shall we?

They're in the top 10 ranked picks in Platinum (Jarvan only...Irelia doesn't make the top 10), Diamond, and Masters currently. They're sitting at a 55% and 56% win rate currently, compared to Hecarim's 48%, and Mundo's 44%. They're in the top 10 wins in Platinum and Diamond (Masters win rates are funky: Urgot is currently on top). Their commonly built items? Warrior Enchantment, Randuin's, and Ghostblade / Hydra on Jarvan (bruiser builds!), and Trinity Force, BorK, Randuin's on Irelia (more bruiser!).

Clearly they're bruisers (and good ones at that), or people would build them as tanks. Platinum/Diamond players play them as damage/tank hybrid bruisers, and are clearly cleaning up with them.

Oh, and Rek'Sai. But she's admittedly overpowered at the moment.

I should also mention that, with the exception of Jax (tied with Hecarim for win rate), every one of the champions I named has a higher win rate than Hecarim, and a significantly higher win rate (4%+) than Mundo.

Affinity2Jan 12, 20151 votes

You arent listening to a word im saying and your giving arbitrary arguments..... I think you need to relook at core game design and reevaluate how you look at league.

NOWHERE IN MY ARGUMENT AM I TALKING ABOUT POWER LEVEL WITH THE EXCEPTION OF DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN WHAT A BRUISER IS AND WHAT A TANK IS..... THEREFORE CALLING J4 IRELIA AND JAX STRONG HAS NO PLACE IN THE ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER AND ONLY DEMONSTRATES TO ME THAT YOU DONT HAVE A SOLID COUNTER ARGUMENT...

IRELIA DOES NOT SCALE AMAZINGLY AS LATE GAME HER W IS LESS THAN TEN PERCENT DAMAGE DONE IN RELATION TO A 100 TO 0 THIS IS A MISCONCEPTION YOU HAVE FED YOURSELF..... SHE IS LOW COUNTER PLAY NOT HIGH STAT EFFECTIVE. SURE I CAN BUY THE SUSTAIN SCALING WELL BUT NOT HER DAMAGE (YES IM AWARE SHE HAS HIGH BASE AD TELL ME SOMETHING I DONT KNOW)

J4 WITH A DAMAGE BUILD REALLY REALLY FALLS OFF AND CANT ASSASSINATE SHIT AFTER A WHILE AND IF HE DOES ITS ONE TARGET WHILE HES REALLY REALLY AHEAD AND THEN PROCEEDS TO GET BLOWN UP HIMSELF (AKA HES GOOD DURING THE MID GAME)

JAX DOESNT HAVE BETTER GAPCLOSERS THAN MUNDO OR HECARIM BY ANY DEFINITION THEY ARE MORE VISUALLY POWERFUL BUT LAST TIME I CHECKED THE TENACITY ON BURNING AGONY GOT NERFED WHEN MUNDO WAS A PROBLEM AND NOT THE CD ON LEAP STRIKE ON JAX WHEN HE WAS PICKED..... THATS WHY HECARIM W WAS NERFED DOWN TO 20 PERCENT FROM 30 BECAUSE HE WASNT A LATE GAME PROBLEM SURE BUDDY KEEP EATING THE SHIT YOUR BEING FED FROM EVERYONE AROUND.

jax is close but he still represents a 35 minute bruiser...... he falls off hard after a certain point. everyone scales better with 6 items than not.... that doesnt mean they are more effective than someone else at 6 items....

FURTHERMORE CARRY POTENTIAL=/= DAMAGE AND HECARIM HAD ALOT OF FUCKING DAMAGE WITH 40% CDR AND ARMOR PEN WHILE BEING INDESTRUCTIBLE DRAIN TANK. JAX IS CLOSE BUT STILL NOT WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.

ALSO YOU CANT BUILD A BRUISER AS A TANK ITS A CONTRADICTION.....THERE ARENT ENOUGH UTILITY ITEMS IN THE GAME BUT YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY BUILD A TANK LIKE A BRUISER SHOWING YOU DONT KNOW THE DEFINITION OF EITHER.

A BRUISER IS SOMEONE WHO'S PRIMARY GOAL IS DAMAGE AND IS ALLOWED TO ACHIEVE MAXIMUM POSSIBLE DAMAGE OUTPUT IN A TEAMFIGHT BY STAYING ALIVE LONGER AND THEREFORE FOCUSES ON BUILDING DEFENSES. SEE RENEKTON ULT MUNDO BURNING AGONY HECARIM Q STACKING SKARNER VOLIBEAR NASUS Q AND ULT ALL SCALE WITH DEFENSIVE STATS BEFORE OFFENSIVE ONES.

A TANK IS FOCUSED ON DISRUPTION WHETHER CC OR VALUE BASED, AND HAS THE MOST CONTROL OVER A FIGHT AS A RESULT.

SachabotJan 12, 20151 votes

Holy shit, what a pile of stupidity. People are allowed to disagree with you on the internet, you know? Going full caps on us isn't gonna change anything, and insulting someone over an opinion is childish. Chill. Now then, let's begin. I'll just pick things in whatever order I feel like addressing them.

Okay, so you say this:

FURTHERMORE CARRY POTENTIAL=/= DAMAGE

But earlier, you said this:

Im talking about a CARRY the one who does the damage...... hecarim and mundo are by far the closest thing we have to ultra scaling bruiser

So, you first insist that the carry is the one with the damage, then insist that the carry doesn't do damage when someone points out higher-damage alternatives. That's a contradiction, when two statements are made that conflict directly with each other.

Next up:

JAX DOESNT HAVE BETTER GAPCLOSERS THAN MUNDO OR HECARIM BY ANY DEFINITION

Okay, I'm willing to give you Hecarim. The speed pony is made to run people down, and built well he's pretty damn effective at it. But Mundo? You run away from Mundo by stepping slightly to the side and then being on your merry way, because you've probably got some sort of dash. You know, a real gap closer. Mundo has a MS steroid because otherwise he never catches anyone, and even then it's hardly worth writing home about. That's not a gapcloser, by the way. Leona has a gap closer. Alistair has a gap closer. Braum has one. Yi has one, so does Akali, so does Jax, etc. You know who doesn't have a gap closer? Mundo. Shyvana. Trundle. MS steroid != gap closer.

BUT LAST TIME I CHECKED THE TENACITY ON BURNING AGONY GOT NERFED WHEN MUNDO WAS A PROBLEM AND NOT THE CD ON LEAP STRIKE ON JAX WHEN HE WAS PICKED..... THATS WHY HECARIM W WAS NERFED DOWN TO 20 PERCENT FROM 30 BECAUSE HE WASNT A LATE GAME PROBLEM SURE BUDDY KEEP EATING THE SHIT YOUR BEING FED FROM EVERYONE AROUND.

Mundo's Tenacity was reduced because natural Tenacity in a kit makes a champion bullshit. Ask Irelia. Or rather, try and lock her down. Jax's CD isn't problematic, he needs it to stay on his target. And he never said Hecarim wasn't and issue late game, he just happens to get outscaled by Jax at level 18 with 6 items. But Jax is made to deal damage whereas Hecarim is made to control and survive.

ALSO YOU CANT BUILD A BRUISER AS A TANK ITS A CONTRADICTION As you yourself pointed out with the original post and several times after, bruisers tend to fall off in terms of damage late. Which is why most bruisers transition towards tank as the game progresses. So yes, you can build a bruiser tank. It's quite common. You just shouldn't start with your tank build, as it puts you behind your counterpart on the enemy team.

SEE RENEKTON ULT MUNDO BURNING AGONY HECARIM Q STACKING SKARNER VOLIBEAR NASUS Q AND ULT ALL SCALE WITH DEFENSIVE STATS BEFORE OFFENSIVE ONES.

The quote above is your justification for focusing on defensive items. While a bruiser should have defensive items, you should remember the following:

Renekton's ult scales with AP. It does grant a flat amount of health, but no scaling, sorry.
Mundo's Burning Agony scales with AP, not a defensive stat.
Hecarim's Q stacking? The ability scales off of AD, but his Rampage stacks are a CD reduction that is granted if he hits someone. No defensive stats there.
None of Skarner's ratios are influenced by defensive stats at all. Not even his shield.
Okay, Volibear does have several skills that do more based on his health pool. You're 1/5, but this was a good pick for your argument.
Nasus' Q is stacked on getting the killing blow with it, and literally nothing else. His ult is similar to his brother's in that it does more damage based on the amount of AP he has, and it grants him flat health. But still no defensive stacking.

All in all, those were some poor picks for that argument, as only one of them actually supported your stance. And Voli's a tank, not a bruiser.

jax is close but he still represents a 35 minute bruiser...... he falls off hard after a certain point. everyone scales better with 6 items than not.... that doesnt mean they are more effective than someone else at 6 items....

Good job on not using caps lock here. But, what? Jax's scaling means that yes, he is a more effective carry at six items than most champions. That pool does include Hecarim and Mundo, by the way. Now back up some more:

and damn straight im saying nasus isnt a late game character lol.... hes a mid to late game snowballer at best.

Nasus is a late game character. He doesn't need to snowball, he just needs to not die and last hit his creeps in lane. For reference, Riven needs to snowball to be effective late. Nasus needs to.....farm his Q and not die, which is infinitely easier in most scenarios, unless the Nasus player is just bad.

Okay, I'm done for now. If you doubt what I said, look for yourself, numbers don't lie: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Champion

Affinity2Jan 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Holy shit, what a pile of stupidity. People are allowed to disagree with you on the internet, you know? Going full caps on us isn't gonna change anything, and insulting someone over an opinion is childish. Chill. Now then, let's begin. I'll just pick things in whatever order I feel like addressing them.

Ok so a couple things i will disprove now because your still full of shit and you dont understand the game. Im sorry bro your just fucking ignoring the game at this point. I understand fucking EVERYTHING dont tell me that mundo w scales with ap..... because clearly a flat health cost on a damage over time ability scales with health. IF MUNDO IS SITTING ON TOP OF AN ENEMY WITH BURNING AGONY THE PERCENT DISCREPANCY BETWEEN HIM AND HIS OPPONENT IS VASTLY GREATER IN FAVOR OF MUNDO THE MORE HEALTH HE RECEIVES AS HE IS NOW LOSING LESS PER SECOND COMPARED TO HIS ENEMY EFFECTIVELY MAKING THE ABILITY SCALE WITH HEALTH. NUMBERS DONT LIE RETARD YOU JUST DONT KNOW HOW TO READ MATH. IM NOT A CHILD IM THE MAN PISSED OFF AT HOW IGNORANT THE INTERNET CAN BE.

Okay, so you say this:

But earlier, you said this:

So, you first insist that the carry is the one with the damage, then insist that the carry doesn't do damage when someone points out higher-damage alternatives. That's a contradiction, when two statements are made that conflict directly with each other.

Safety+damage = carry potential thats why draven isnt a fucking hyper carry and (imo opinion vayne isnt a hyper carry either shes a carry with a good power spike during the late mid game) and tristana most certainly is despite having drastically less damage than him.

I have been 100 percent consistent on playpattern safetly determining carry potential. MUNDO AND HECARIM WILL REACH THEIR ENEMIES ALIVE AND WHEN THEY GET ONTOP OF THEM ARENT RELYING ON AUTO ATTACKS TO DEAL CONSISTENT DAMAGE.

NASUS HAS NO GUARANTEE OF REACHING HIS OPPONENT. JAX HAS TO REPEATEDLY CLOSE THE GAP TO DEAL DAMAGE BUT YEA HES DECENTLY CLOSE TO THE MODEL IM TALKING ABOUT BUT HE STILL HAS MOST OF HIS POWER DURING THE LATE MID GAME AKA 3 ITEMS WHEN COMPARED TO OTHER CHAMPIONS ON THE MAP.

Next up:

Okay, I'm willing to give you Hecarim. The speed pony is made to run people down, and built well he's pretty damn effective at it. But Mundo? You run away from Mundo by stepping slightly to the side and then being on your merry way, because you've probably got some sort of dash. You know, a real gap closer. Mundo has a MS steroid because otherwise he never catches anyone, and even then it's hardly worth writing home about. That's not a gapcloser, by the way. Leona has a gap closer. Alistair has a gap closer. Braum has one. Yi has one, so does Akali, so does Jax, etc. You know who doesn't have a gap closer? Mundo. Shyvana. Trundle. MS steroid != gap closer.

Mundo's Tenacity was reduced because natural Tenacity in a kit makes a champion bullshit. Ask Irelia. Or rather, try and lock her down. Jax's CD isn't problematic, he needs it to stay on his target. And he never said Hecarim wasn't and issue late game, he just happens to get outscaled by Jax at level 18 with 6 items. But Jax is made to deal damage whereas Hecarim is made to control and survive. As you yourself pointed out with the original post and several times after, bruisers tend to fall off in terms of damage late. Which is why most bruisers transition towards tank as the game progresses. So yes, you can build a bruiser tank. It's quite common. You just shouldn't start with your tank build, as it puts you behind your counterpart on the enemy team.

Your statement here is so ignorant its laughable This goes into the next part as well. First of all i dont want to even give you the gratification of elaborating on your dumb as fuck statement below because all of those abilties (high base value low scaling low cd or dps abilities) most definitely scale with survivability and defensive stats (hurr durr defensive items tend to have cdr retard (visage and iceborn or frozen heart for skarner/hec/ alot of these champs) making them ideal for bruisers.... I WOULD HAVE RESPECTED THE ARGUMENT THAT MOST OF THESE ABILTIES ACTUALLY SCALE WELL WITH PENETRATION AS AN OFFENSIVE STAT (see mundo q hecarim q and def percent magic damage in general voli w scales with armor pen really really well) BUT YOUR TOO FUCKING DUMB TO EVEN MAKE THE ARGUMENT FOR YOURSELF.

I EXPLAINED WHY SURVIVABILITY INCREASES DAMAGE OUTPUT IN THE FIRST POST MOST OBVIOUSLY DEMONSTRATED BY MUNDO'S BURNING AGONY. NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP KID AND ACTUALLY GIVE ME A GOOD ARGUMENT. HECARIM Q AND SKARNER Q DAMAGE SCALES WITH TIME MEANING THE DAMAGE IS LOADED ONTO THE LATER PART OF THE ABILITY MAKING IT SCALE OFF OF DEFENSIVE STATS. I HAVE A MILLION MORE RETARD. NUMBERS DONT LIE DUMB FUCK TELL ME IT AGAIN.

YOU KNOW WHAT IM NOT EVEN GONNA FINISH THIS POST BECAUSE YOUR NOT WORTH MY TIME. FUCKING USE SOME COMMON SENSE AND START THINKING IN ACTUAL GAME INTERACTIONS.

NASUS IS NOT A LATE GAME CARRY BECAUSE HE CANT REACH ANYONE I DONT CARE IF HIS Q STACKS INFINITY HES A SNOWBALLER BECAUSE HE LOSES TO ANYONE COMPETENT AT LANING AND DEPENDS ON SNOWBALLING TO REGEN MORE DAMAGE THAN HE RECEIVES MAKING HIM DEPENDENT ON SNOWBALLING TO STACK. FUCK YOURSELF AND GOOD DAY

The quote above is your justification for focusing on defensive items. While a bruiser should have defensive items, you should remember the following:

Renekton's ult scales with AP. It does grant a flat amount of health, but no scaling, sorry.

Mundo's Burning Agony scales with AP, not a defensive stat.

Hecarim's Q stacking? The ability scales off of AD, but his Rampage stacks are a CD reduction that is granted if he hits someone. No defensive stats there.

None of Skarner's ratios are influenced by defensive stats at all. Not even his shield.

Okay, Volibear does have several skills that do more based on his health pool. You're 1/5, but this was a good pick for your argument.

Nasus' Q is stacked on getting the killing blow with it, and literally nothing else. His ult is similar to his brother's in that it does more damage based on the amount of AP he has, and it grants him flat health. But still no defensive stacking.

All in all, those were some poor picks for that argument, as only one of them actually supported your stance. And Voli's a tank, not a bruiser.

Good job on not using caps lock here. But, what? Jax's scaling means that yes, he is a more effective carry at six items than most champions. That pool does include Hecarim and Mundo, by the way. Now back up some more:

Nasus is a late game character. He doesn't need to snowball, he just needs to not die and last hit his creeps in lane. For reference, Riven needs to snowball to be effective late. Nasus needs to.....farm his Q and not die, which is infinitely easier in most scenarios, unless the Nasus player is just bad.

Okay, I'm done for now. If you doubt what I said, look for yourself, numbers don't lie: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Champion