I had mained Shaco for 8 years. Had. This is bullshit.

ChickenWrap·Feb 23, 2018·86 votes·7,327 views

You want to rework Shaco and make his early-game bad and compensate with a good late-game? Fine.

You want to nerf Shaco for abusing the items that every other AP assassin abuses? Fine. (Can't help but notice they were still 100-0ing people with those items)

You want to nerf Duskblade? Keep assassin power down in a god damned healing and shield meta? Fine!

Where's Shaco's compensation? WInrate is not always a direct correlation of champion strength, and you, being on the balance team, should know this. Shaco is already a relatively niche pick that most people can't pull off well and that doesn't work fantastically unless he's paired with a tank or two.

You've created a feast-or-famine champion that has no damage on his kit that has to rely entirely on items to do his job and you're going to nerf those items without giving him a little bump up? This is bullshit. Nerf after rework after nerf and you're going to sit here and say that Shaco is strong right now? Everyone does his job, but better, at all parts of the game. He's easy to counter and easier to run away from. His entire engage is also his disengage (pick one per fight), and god forbid he uses it before the enemy ADC that he can't kill because fuck you Shaco uses their mobility to escape him.

But yeah, you're right Meddler. Shaco is probably too strong ever since his kneecapping. He's probably a little overkill because god forbid he have any sort of actual damage ratios to be on-par with his competition.

You want to nerf Duskblade and not give Shaco compensation? That's fine. How about you just undo the shitty rework you gave him as well then? That seems entirely fair to me.

131 Comments

AnateraFeb 24, 201820 votes

{quoted} WInrate is not always a direct correlation of champion strength, and you, being on the balance team, should know this.

If there's anything these last few months have told us, it's that they don't know this.

LyingOnLineFeb 24, 20183 votes

If there’s anything League of Legends has taught anybody, it’s that winrate is directly correlated to champion strength.

RyrynounetFeb 24, 20184 votes

so if only one player plays one champion because he's the only one who's good at playing him and have 60% winrate, then does the winrate is correlated to the champion's strength or to the player's strength ?

so if only one player plays one champion because he's the only one who's good at playing him and played this champion 4 time and have 100% winrate, does that mean winrate is correlated to the champion's strength or to the RNG of matchamking ?

now swap "one player" with "OTP/Mains", will it still be the champion's strength even with 0.2% pickrate ?

FairyfleurFeb 25, 20182 votes

Then why did they nerf Zoe? She didn’t reach high winrates even when she was strong.

KlydeFrogFeb 24, 201813 votes

bro ive said the samething about skarner ever since they reworked him into the shtty spire rework and what i come to find out is no one cares

y0r1ckFeb 24, 20185 votes

Yup, problems on low play rate champions don't get solved very fast.

FreezerFlareFeb 24, 201812 votes

As long as they feel like unreworking Kog/Rengar, Do it to shaco

I don't care if "His winrate is high, or he is technically strong"

He feels like garbage to play right now. One of my favorite junglers has stopped being fun to play regardless of strength.

KuraSeiFeb 24, 201810 votes

Shaco is ONLY good at early invades at this point. You want to cheese level 2 or 3? Pick shaco. You want to actually win a team fight and a game? Pick anything but shaco

L Psy KongrooFeb 24, 201826 votes

{quoted}

Shaco is ONLY good at early invades at this point. You want to cheese level 2 or 3? Pick shaco.

I haven't seen a Shaco invade at level 2 since his rework. He's absolute ass at it now.

KuraSeiFeb 24, 20187 votes

Having invis and ignite will never be absolute ass. But then again I am el silverino

ChickenWrapFeb 24, 20185 votes

He has ignite because he needs to take it to try and get kills so that he can snowball or else he'll fall behind and be useless. Do you know how strong Flash Shaco is? It's ridiculous.

But he can't take it.

Supreme Senpai69Feb 24, 20182 votes

I always thought it was because, with his Q, he didn't need flash. Kind of how like Hecarim takes Ghost instead of flash because he just doesn't need flash.

Don't get me wrong, sure Shaco is weak. I've seen only one all season, lol. But if Shaco needed flash he'd take it. He doesn't need it so he takes something more suited to his playstyle.

ChickenWrapFeb 24, 20181 votes

Yes, Shaco takes ignite so that he has kill potential, like I said.

Supreme Senpai69Feb 24, 20182 votes

Oh. I'unno. I guess it sounded more like "He needs flash but if he doesn't take ignite he'll lose." And I was asking isn't it more like "He doesn't need flash and taking ignite is like icing on cake." I don't play Shaco, was trying to get some clarification.

MogarlFeb 24, 20182 votes

I would guess that from the perspective of a shaco player that may have been what it was like in the past, but now he has sort of been balanced around the expectation of taking ignite. I'm not arguing against that since a blink that can replace flash takes more than a small portion of your budget, and most champions in the game need ignite to have kill pressure 1-3 against a competent opponent.

The problem balance wise with Shaco is that he is basically built to go in and fuck with the other jungler, but the game isn't built to defend against it. So he's either weak and an annoyance, or strong and nigh impossible to deal with.

ChickenWrapFeb 24, 20182 votes

If you think about it, why doesn't Kassaein take ignore over flash?

Game is balanced around flash because it's the best summoner spell out there.

TequilaZombieFeb 24, 20183 votes

Because Kass has a REALLY weak pre-6. Without flash he would be forced to play 100% passively before he gets his ult.

He takes Flash for the same reason Shaco picks Ignite, to have a stronger Early Game.

ValyrianBladeMar 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Supreme Senpai69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8Nrcza86,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-24T08:49:18.177+0000)

I always thought it was because, with his Q, he didn't need flash. Kind of how like Hecarim takes Ghost instead of flash because he just doesn't need flash.

Don't get me wrong, sure Shaco is weak. I've seen only one all season, lol. But if Shaco needed flash he'd take it. He doesn't need it so he takes something more suited to his playstyle.

It's funny. I've played a decent amount of Hecarim and take ghost generally (there was a while that I took tp+smite, and when Hecarim top was a thing he took tp+ignite), but I don't think Hecarim doesn't take flash because he doesn't need it. Hecarim has no dash in his kit outside of his R, and blindly ulting over a wall that an enemy flashes/dashes over isn't often a great idea (lots of damage lost if you miss). I think Hecarim takes ghost because it scales with his passive and the extra damage is more valuable than the ability to clear walls. Likewise when Hecarim was played top his entire threat was based on rushing homeguard enchantment and tp'ing with it to Lane and killing his Lane opponent with the huge ms burst damage on his e, plus ignite. It wasn't that he didn't need flash, he probably benefits from it more than most champions that take it (who otherwise have non ultimate dashes), but he benefits even more from other summoner spells.

That all said, I'd guess Shaco is quite the same. Flash is still strong on him and probably lets him do a lot of cool things, but he takes ignite because he needs to double down on his early game and snowball. Contrast that to Twitch who can fail his early ganks and still have an alternative win condition (farm up and hope your team can hold until you get 2-3 items and become a hyper carry despite being useless early). Which speaks volumes to the problem with Twitch jungle (it's not only early cheese that can win by level 3, but also a late threat. You literally need to outplay him and respect his threat for the entire game in order to beat him. He can screw up many times, fail many ganks and die several times to counter ganks, but the first time he catches you unaware in a skirmish and gets a triple kill, he's suddenly a threat to carry the game at 3/7/0).

BestPudgeNAFeb 25, 20183 votes

{quoted}

He has ignite because he needs to take it to try and get kills so that he can snowball or else he'll fall behind and be useless. Do you know how strong Flash Shaco is? It's ridiculous.

But he can't take it.

Shaco takes ignite cause he doesn't need flash due because Invis is just too strong pre item 3364

RocketRelmFeb 24, 20186 votes

Twitch There's more than one option for that, though.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 24, 20181 votes

No one uses ignite on Twitch and true invisibility like Shaco has it will always be more useful than camouflage.

ChickenWrapFeb 24, 20182 votes

Not when your aa range is longer than your camo circle. Jungle twitch takes ignite for early kill potential so he can get items and be useful. Flash is still better to have though.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 24, 20182 votes

Just 1% of all Twitch junglers in bronze take ignite and their winrate is low (44%), in plat+ flash is taken 99,49%, ignite isn't even listed. If someone jumps on Twitch, he needs flash to escape.

Shaco can afford not taking flash, since he has a built in blink with true invisibility. There is no situation he could escape with flash which he couldn't with his Q as well.

BestPudgeNAFeb 25, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=L Psy Congroo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8Nrcza86,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-02-24T01:21:18.346+0000)

I haven't seen a Shaco invade at level 2 since his rework. He's absolute ass at it now.

Ignite Shaco beats literally every level 3 Jungler if he gets the jump on them, most JGlers can't even escape. It normally doesn't work cause all JG mains see the cheese play coming in the loading screen though.

zarxus1234Feb 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Ignite Shaco beats literally every level 3 Jungler if he gets the jump on them, most JGlers can't even escape. It normally doesn't work cause all JG mains see the cheese play coming in the loading screen though.

lol lol lol lol. Obviously has no idea what you are talking about.

Andrey0345Feb 25, 20182 votes

With THAT early game? He's absolutely useless at invading at lvl 2. ANY other jungler can do it better. He just has no damage.

Jerry SeinfeIdFeb 24, 20187 votes

if we do revert him, can we keep the new ult? I really like ap shaco top, but it's so fucking hard to pull off these days.

y0r1ckFeb 24, 20187 votes

upvote bc shaco needs it

Kanzaki RankoFeb 24, 20187 votes

buffing khazix over shaco lol

Sherlock ClonesFeb 24, 20186 votes

um so they have constantly nerfed shaco. He is ass, and they are going to buff khazix? You shitting me riot? Shaco sees no competitive play but khazix, zed, rengar, talon, and everyone else on your list all do. But no, lets buff them, and keep shaco down some more. He legit has no damage on his own and has to entirely rely on items. So not only do you nerf him, now you nerf his items and give him no buff in return. Sick and tired of this obvious bias towards shaco from the riot community. Complete and utter bullshit.

GôdÌyFeb 24, 20188 votes

Kha zix sees a lot of pro play rengar a little but zed and talon are pretty much nonexistant in pro play. I mean shaco is picked less than them but still. Only kha sees consitant pro play.

Violet FieldsFeb 24, 20185 votes

I honestly feel the reason why he has shitty ratios is also the reason why Kennen has shitty ratios, crowd control.

ChickenWrapFeb 24, 20187 votes

What Crowd Control? A box that can be killed on accident before it arms itself? Not likely.

LeonerdoFeb 24, 20185 votes

Okay but, winrate is the best indicator of raw power, if you interpret it's nuances correctly. And some places have Shaco as 2nd highest winrate in Diamond (your MMR). Other measures, like winrate in other tiers or winrate on experienced players, are not as high, but still above the median for Junglers.

Pick literally any other argument, and you would have a better leg to stand on. But talking about power level, it's ludicrous to say that Shaco is NOT strong right now. (Unless you want to specify low-MMR power level, where he's mediocre at worst.)

He can stand an indirect nerf.

MasterDCloneFeb 24, 20181 votes

dude shaco has a high winrate because nobody other than one tricks, those who have mastered him still play him so if only the best are playing him obviously his winrate will be up, because other champion have more than just onetricks playing them to balance out the winrate

LeonerdoFeb 24, 20184 votes

Yeah I check those stats, too. His "best winrate" (aka winrate on experienced mains) is still pretty high (although not absurdly so). And while his "playerbase average games" is pretty high, if you compare him to other champs with a similar ratio of one-tricks to novices, his winrate is still top-tier for champions in that category.

woodvsmurphFeb 25, 20184 votes

Shaco has some very strong ad scaling and some very strong ap scaling in his kit. It does not overlap as nicely as kayle's e hybrid damage and isn't aa-based nor spammable on a 2sec-ish cd like riven, yasuo, rengar, kha or others... so building hybrid does not per-say scale up that great with his kit; however, going full ap or full ad scales him up just fine. He might not have AS HIGH of damage off his kit and raw ad or ap as the top tier champs; however, he is not designed to and gets plenty enough to get the job done when played properly.

Shaco can 100% stealth into the middle of 3 enemies late game, pop a full hp adc and escape... perhaps even more easily than most other champs. So his damage, despite what some would say, is far from lacking. He is generally an ap or ad ASSASSIN. Meaning he is good at killing SQUISHY targets, but will LOSE (and SHOULD LOSE) to bruisers and tanks because he lacks the penetration necessary to make his damage count vs them while also lacking the tankiness to sustain much of any damage himself - instead relying on stealth and trickery as is suited to his character.

Mid/late game, shaco is good for exactly 2 things. First is splitpushing objectives and escaping enemy ganks when they try to collapse on him. Second is picking off isolated enemies. He is shit for teamfights because there is a ton of cc in the game these days, tons of healing/shielding, and lots of burst AND sustained damage. Due to this, shaco cannot reliably engage an enemy carry mid/late game without getting locked down for at least SOME time. During which he will likely be focused and deleted since he builds no real durability items. This makes it extremely hard to teamfight with him and generally requires some vision control, a tanky teammate or two to engage and distract (eating up the enemy cc) and a well-timed flank engage by shaco. Not easy to pull off. While this can be frustrating (to both the shaco player and his/her teammates), it is a fate faced by all assassins and many aggressive bruisers and fighters (renekton, riven, darius, jax, etc.). Shaco is hardly alone in his predicament nor is he worse off than all the rest in terms of how difficult it is.

Currently, his design splitting damage and scaling between ad and ap and the nature of his kit makes him more of an early game snowball champ - similar to elise's need to snowball early. That is not to say he cannot be good late game -- just that his options for going about being useful are more limited, require higher level execution than many (not all) other champs. To fix this would require a complete rework of his kit and probably forcing him into being EITHER ad OR ap; no room to have the option for either or both. No matter how that were approached, it would be certain to anger SOME long-time shaco players due to either the ad or ap shaco being no-more. Thus, unless you can unite all shaco players into one camp ad OR ap and come up with a better kit that is not toxic to play against I would suggest you think carefully before complaining about this or that on shaco.

He is not top tier, but he is far from bottom of the barrel and there are other champs who require just as much skill yet pay off far less in rewards or give fewer options for how to be viable within a game. Until such champs as those are addressed - and unless you want the aforementioned ap or ad only (no options for both types of shaco anymore) - I would highly suggest you chill out and be happy with your perfectly viable champ... or start learning a new one.

ChickenWrapFeb 25, 20182 votes

Look dude, I don't want to be a dick, but you're a Silver/Gold top main. You haven't played with or against players good enough to actually use or deal with Shaco properly. Give his kit a serious look and come back and tell me he has the ratios or damage to actually do his job before he finishes half his items (in which time ADCs are already kiting him and not dying and other assassins are doing his job better)

He can't pick off isolated enemies anymore. Sure he should lose to tanks, but he also loses to squishy champions too.

woodvsmurphFeb 28, 20182 votes

First off, you shouldn't assume I'm a dude. But you would be correct in this case. As for your thoughts...

Yeah - I'm gold. That means top 23% of players or so. It means I play against pissed of diamond players who went on a losing streak. It means I have played against said individuals and BEATEN some of them DESPITE them having a jungler camp for them... and them taking ignite and a winning matchup. So what does that have to do with my assessment of shaco again? I've been asked by plat players and diamond players (many - not just 4 or 5) if I was a diamond/plat smurf when they've played with or against me. So obviously they were impressed by my macro, my micro, my laning, and/or something else. But let me guess... they aren't challenger tier, so their opinions and thoughts also don't matter. Hmm...

Shaco ratios... I explained that shaco is similar to elise early game - made for ganking lanes and SNOWBALLING teammates. This gets him those juicy items faster. Without items, no one 1-shots opponents - I don't see where the not doing his job part comes in. If you ignore lanes to spam farm jungle and therefore don't have the items and/or your teammates are too far behind to enable you to do your job properly, that's on you as the shaco player for not doing your early game job of ganking and making life hell for enemy laners.

His ratios - he has some great ones. Look at ratios in other champ's kits and their normal BUILDS and tell me his ratios are bad... because they're not. The problem is that half of the kit is for ap and half for ad... because - as I mentioned - people in ap shaco and ad shaco camp don't want their shaco ruined to allow the other one to be better. If he were made entirely ad or entirely ap, he'd have meaningful ratios on ALL his abilities instead of just 2-3 of them depending on whether he goes ad or ap. Again, not my problem; unite your shaco main people and commit to ad or ap, then ask Riot to adjust his kit/ratios accordingly or... don't complain.

He can't win 1v1's? He sure can against the right opponent. And besides that, you are missing the point of shaco. He's not supposed to run up to you and 1v1 you. He's supposed to see... oh, you're solo pushing vs the enemy mid or top. I'll just drop in and... surprise, you died. Then he poofs back out of vision and leaves the enemy guessing where he is. People playing a champ improperly have no right to complain about him not succeeding. That's like a renekton player saying he needs buffs because ap renekton isn't strong enough to 1v1 a late game mordekaiser. Sure, you are correct, but you are also trying to do something your champ wasn't meant to do and isn't supposed to be able to do. Does that make sense to you?

Final thoughts for people reading your post and this one: Vods. People can (I do) watch streams and vods of high elo players and analyze them. This enables them to know better what champs and builds are capable of even if they haven't experienced something first hand. I say - without arrogance - that I've watched the opening to some high elo and pro teamfights and skirmishes - or even just looked at champ select - and determined who should and who would get focused, and how the fight would play out... before the opening shots were fired. The skill difference isn't as high as one might think either. Oh there's absolutely a difference, but the greater difference lies in TEAM play and macro than in champ skill. And as far as that goes, I have macro more on a level with master tier players than gold tier. Making your team understand something and/or listen to it though is another thing entirely. And for this reason some Hai level shotcallers appear to be players of no consequence. Flip that around... that also means some of them probably have mediocre mechanics which hold them back - as is partially the case with me. As dyrus said in a recent Riven vid, he could "see the mechanics" in his head, but "muscle memory" failed him. Just because he COULDN'T play something properly, doesn't mean he doesn't know how to or understand how to. The same can be said for understanding shaco at high elo or for other things. Comprende?

ChickenWrapFeb 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

First off, you shouldn't assume I'm a dude. But you would be correct in this case. As for your thoughts...

Why does it matter if I call someone "dude", "bro", or "guy". They're pretty gender neutral terms at this point that both sexes use to call the other sex. You'll be fine. Don't white knight over something so ridiculous and trivial.

Yeah - I'm gold. That means top 23% of players or so. It means I play against pissed of diamond players who went on a losing streak. It means I have played against said individuals and BEATEN some of them DESPITE them having a jungler camp for them... and them taking ignite and a winning matchup. So what does that have to do with my assessment of shaco again? I've been asked by plat players and diamond players (many - not just 4 or 5) if I was a diamond/plat smurf when they've played with or against me. So obviously they were impressed by my macro, my micro, my laning, and/or something else. But let me guess... they aren't challenger tier, so their opinions and thoughts also don't matter. Hmm...

And I was D1 last season. That means top .05% of players or so (and an avid Shaco main in this elo). It means I played against plenty of professional League players, and none of them play Shaco and when I tried to play Shaco against them, I couldn't do anything because they knew how to handle playing against me. The only times it worked out was if I got fed off of camping someone who was still somehow less familiar with the champion.

Shaco ratios... I explained that shaco is similar to elise early game - made for ganking lanes and SNOWBALLING teammates. This gets him those juicy items faster. Without items, no one 1-shots opponents - I don't see where the not doing his job part comes in. If you ignore lanes to spam farm jungle and therefore don't have the items and/or your teammates are too far behind to enable you to do your job properly, that's on you as the shaco player for not doing your early game job of ganking and making life hell for enemy laners.

Shaco can't gank lanes early-on. He has no damage, no stealth time, and no reliable CC. The only way Shaco can kill someone in the early-game is if they play really horribly. Unlike Elise, who has more than enough damage and reliable CC to kill people on her own without a laner. Shaco almost has to farm jungle to get his items because he can't gank lanes very well. The fact that anyone thinks Shaco has strong ganks pre-6+An item and a half is living in 2014 still. Stop that.

His ratios - he has some great ones. Look at ratios in other champ's kits and their normal BUILDS and tell me his ratios are bad... because they're not. The problem is that half of the kit is for ap and half for ad... because - as I mentioned - people in ap shaco and ad shaco camp don't want their shaco ruined to allow the other one to be better. If he were made entirely ad or entirely ap, he'd have meaningful ratios on ALL his abilities instead of just 2-3 of them depending on whether he goes ad or ap. Again, not my problem; unite your shaco main people and commit to ad or ap, then ask Riot to adjust his kit/ratios accordingly or... don't complain.

Backstab ratio that is so paltry that it does nothing until he has items, and if he crits on his own, the passive is nullified No ratio on Q Only AP ratio on W, base ratios not great Small base ratio on E, his % damage ratio increases with levels, which means it's not good at the start. AP ratios are OK but not fantastic. His R deals his damage, but dies incredibly fast.

Yeah Shaco's ratios are great... Both AP and AD Shaco need to rely entirely on items to deal damage. You can make a functioning hybrid champion and have them be strong. Look at Kog'Maw, Ezreal, Kai'Sa, old Eve, and old Tristana. You can do it no sweat. Hell, even my rework idea for Shaco allowed him the agency of building AP or AD and still being useful with both while allowing him to be good as a champion independently.

He can't win 1v1's? He sure can against the right opponent. And besides that, you are missing the point of shaco. He's not supposed to run up to you and 1v1 you. He's supposed to see... oh, you're solo pushing vs the enemy mid or top. I'll just drop in and... surprise, you died. Then he poofs back out of vision and leaves the enemy guessing where he is. People playing a champ improperly have no right to complain about him not succeeding. That's like a renekton player saying he needs buffs because ap renekton isn't strong enough to 1v1 a late game mordekaiser. Sure, you are correct, but you are also trying to do something your champ wasn't meant to do and isn't supposed to be able to do. Does that make sense to you?

Shaco is an assassin, and like all assassins, he should be able to kill certain champions when they're alone without needing to be incredibly fed to do so. Right now, he can't reliably do that. I'm not "missing the point" of the champion I mained for eight years. When was the last time you even touched him? He can't Q in, kill someone, and Q out. That thing has a 10 second cooldown and his initial burst doesn't usually kill someone, so no. Don't straight-up lie about him.

Final thoughts for people reading your post and this one: Vods. People can (I do) watch streams and vods of high elo players and analyze them. This enables them to know better what champs and builds are capable of even if they haven't experienced something first hand. I say - without arrogance - that I've watched the opening to some high elo and pro teamfights and skirmishes - or even just looked at champ select - and determined who should and who would get focused, and how the fight would play out... before the opening shots were fired. The skill difference isn't as high as one might think either. Oh there's absolutely a difference, but the greater difference lies in TEAM play and macro than in champ skill. And as far as that goes, I have macro more on a level with master tier players than gold tier. Making your team understand something and/or listen to it though is another thing entirely. And for this reason some Hai level shotcallers appear to be players of no consequence. Flip that around... that also means some of them probably have mediocre mechanics which hold them back - as is partially the case with me. As dyrus said in a recent Riven vid, he could "see the mechanics" in his head, but "muscle memory" failed him. Just because he COULDN'T play something properly, doesn't mean he doesn't know how to or understand how to. The same can be said for understanding shaco at high elo or for other things. Comprende?

High elo Shaco mains say he's garbage because he's garbage. Just because you watch VoDs doesn't mean you're better at the game, because it's clearly not working as well as you claim it is. You watch the VoDs, I'm in the VoDs. I understand Shaco at high elo, and low elo players (read: Almost all of the Gameplay forums) really get me when they try to tell me how Shaco works in their elo where they don't want to learn how to play against a bad champion simply because he has a Q on a baseline 16 to 14 second cooldown. Get good at League and stop complaining about easy-to-counter champions. Comprende?

woodvsmurphMar 1, 20182 votes

You are higher rank then me... congrats. This doesn't mean you know more. I will absolutely give you - assuming what you said about shaco main for 8yrs - that you know more about the champ than me. That does not however in any way disqualify or invalidate my statements.

Let's examine a few points.

Either 1, you play shaco 50% of the time and lose almost every game while winning almost every game you don't play him or... you can win pretty reliably on shaco because if you couldn't, you would not drop in rank at anything above bronze 5. I assume you are not a glutton for punishment, so it is probably not the former. Thus, shaco can have a decent winrate. Case 1 debunked.

Shaco can't gank early on? Let me see... junglers with no cc who can gank early on. Hmmm. I'm sure you could list a few - I'll get you started with a fairly meta one for much of each season - kha'zix. He's got a jump/gapcloser and he has one spell with unreliable cc (w). Kinda sounds like someone I know... Shaco . That's right... kinda like shaco. As for the issue of cc - laners often bring cc to the table. At your rank, it should be a cake to place box on their retreat path while your laner cc's them - preventing them from taking their swiftest route back to the safety of their tower. And there's also some good tower dive potential onto low hp enemies since you have a great escape in q. Stealth enough to lane gank via brush in top or bot and hop from one to the next w/o being spotted. Hardly what I'd call impossible. And damage? A few autos and one ability is enough to kill an aggressive squishy with the help of your laner. Furthermore, many shaco's bring ignite to the table - adding more damage as well as healing reduction - which is huge vs certain champs early on. Finally - websites stats clearly show he is in a more than healthy spot - over 51% winrate at high elo. So if you can't show me that every champ in the game is at such a winrate or higher, quit your whining.

Lastly - to address an assumption. "stop complaining about easy-to-counter champions". I never once complained about shaco. I have no problem with shaco. I have no fear of shaco players. For me it means, play smart early, and he will be unable to do shit to me later because I'm playing a bruiser or tank. The only thing he will do to me is give me double buffs.

ChickenWrapMar 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

You are higher rank then me... congrats. This doesn't mean you know more. I will absolutely give you - assuming what you said about shaco main for 8yrs - that you know more about the champ than me. That does not however in any way disqualify or invalidate my statements.

Trust me, I'm all for listening to lower elo players and what they have to say, because I used to maintain a 180+ page AMA about League of Legends when I was Gold myself, as a way to prove just that.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3704154

Also this doubles as my resume for knowing more than you about League. You can have a differing opinion than me, I never said you weren't allowed to -- but just because you have a differing opinion because you're too lazy to play around mechanics doesn't mean you're right.

Let's examine a few points.

Either 1, you play shaco 50% of the time and lose almost every game while winning almost every game you don't play him or... you can win pretty reliably on shaco because if you couldn't, you would not drop in rank at anything above bronze 5. I assume you are not a glutton for punishment, so it is probably not the former. Thus, shaco can have a decent winrate. Case 1 debunked.

I've stopped playing Shaco because he's not enjoyable to play at present. This season my winrate with Shaco is 33%. In the past couple of seasons, it was 52, 55, or 56%. He's simply not a good assassin. He hasn't been since they reworked him and then nerfed his AP ratios.

Shaco can't gank early on? Let me see... junglers with no cc who can gank early on. Hmmm. I'm sure you could list a few - I'll get you started with a fairly meta one for much of each season - kha'zix. He's got a jump/gapcloser and he has one spell with unreliable cc (w). Kinda sounds like someone I know... . That's right... kinda like shaco. As for the issue of cc - laners often bring cc to the table. At your rank, it should be a cake to place box on their retreat path while your laner cc's them - preventing them from taking their swiftest route back to the safety of their tower. And there's also some good tower dive potential onto low hp enemies since you have a great escape in q. Stealth enough to lane gank via brush in top or bot and hop from one to the next w/o being spotted. Hardly what I'd call impossible. And damage? A few autos and one ability is enough to kill an aggressive squishy with the help of your laner. Furthermore, many shaco's bring ignite to the table - adding more damage as well as healing reduction - which is huge vs certain champs early on. Finally - websites stats clearly show he is in a more than healthy spot - over 51% winrate at high elo. So if you can't show me that every champ in the game is at such a winrate or higher, quit your whining.

Shaco can't gank early-on because HE DOESN'T DEAL ANY DAMAGE. You don't need CC in the early-game to gank if you KILL PEOPLE BEFORE THEY CAN GET AWAY.

Shaco's DPS with ignite and a full box (which never happens): about 113 because of backstabs. https://puu.sh/zy6ZX/e4e2594e10.jpg Shaco's realistic DPS with ignite (not accurate because target dummy has 100 armour and ignite is true damage): 61 https://puu.sh/zy7b4/4cedc9422f.jpg Shaco's DPS without ignite: 40-41 https://puu.sh/zy7aj/224c83bfa9.jpg Shaco's burst with electrocute: 199

Kha'Zix's DPS without ignite: 50-51 (without isolation, it still seems to stagnate at 50.) https://puu.sh/zy76O/b624203521.jpg Kha'Zix's burst with electrocute: 222 (without isolation, it's close to the same, but there's this part the moment all the burst hits on an un-isolated target where I see the number 362.)

Most meta top lanes right now are: https://puu.sh/zy7dF/bbf6390a35.png

Darius is only up there because of his recent buff. The only reliable CC on there is Camille and Riven (assuming she can E + W her opponent), and Jax if he took Q and E and they don't flash out. The rest won't let Shaco actually sit and attack his target. You place a box on their retreat path and they walk around it. The lane is bigger than the box radius and any good player can play around the box without getting feared.

Shaco isn't tanky enough to survive more than three-ish turret hits early-game, and he doesn't build health or armour, so running straight at his opponent without using Q and trying to save it to retreat is just going to end in heartache half of the time. If you hop from one bush to the next, you leave a giant puff of visible smoke and if you hop a wall, the smoke is not only still there, but at early levels, you won't even make it to your target before stealth runs out.

You still haven't even touched Shaco, nor have you done proper research into any part of the champion and you're telling me (and the rest of Shaco's playerbase) to stop whining about his weak state? How many times do I have to say this?

#WINRATE IS NOT A DIRECT CORRELATION OF CHAMPION S T R E N G T H ! ! !

Lastly - to address an assumption. "stop complaining about easy-to-counter champions". I never once complained about shaco. I have no problem with shaco. I have no fear of shaco players. For me it means, play smart early, and he will be unable to do shit to me later because I'm playing a bruiser or tank. The only thing he will do to me is give me double buffs.

Shaco is easy to counter. You guys should stop saying he's not =) I'm poking fun at the fact that so many people complain about how ridiculously impossible it is to play against Shaco when it's the exact opposite.

WarHero54Feb 26, 20182 votes

Shaco can 100% stealth into the middle of 3 enemies late game, pop a full hp adc and escape...

I stopped reading after this because that is bullshit. You either use Q for escape or going in. Even at 40% cd reduction, it has a 10sec cd and if you're going damage your glass so you will die in less than a second. Clone is useless if you pop it 99.9% of the time enemy will know the real one instantly its a niche that at higher elos, players aren't tricked with that bs. Meanwhile, Kha'Zix can do that scenario with ease as he stealth, hops, kills target of the 3, stealths again, and hops out of danger.

xelakerFeb 25, 20184 votes

thas some pretty sweet winrates ol shaco has...

p a t r i o tFeb 24, 20183 votes

I swear this shit is because clueless players genuinely have no idea what Shaco does currently. I guarantee that there are people who think you choose Shaco for level 3 invades still.

Andrey0345Feb 25, 20182 votes

"You are so bad, you lose early as Shaco"

SohleksFeb 24, 20182 votes

Shaco's constantly high performance stats perplex me. Any decent player knows Shaco is not great at all.

Taking that much damage off duskblade and ignoring shaco is definitely unfair. Just like the Shyvana hammering they just did was unfair. Anytime she is possibly relevant they promptly knock her back down. Like the third time. Wow. Fun. Back to self reliant do everything outplay champs I guess. Gee I wonder why the games so stale.

And yeah I know Shyvana isn't a mega test of league prowess but she is still a different kind of champion with serious tradeoffs. Shaco has his own serious tradeoffs.

I am not amused by the plebeian safe meta game balancing they enforce going off winrates. A lot of people are getting BORED of the predictable way Riot balances their various characters. I'm getting BORED of the best gameplay reward coming from being giant sissies. This is league of legends as I've known it since season 5. Back then even mega long farm games was still fresh and I thought it could change again. I no longer hold that optimism. Riot's past strategy has been to force the game state to speed up through additional snowball mechanics. Meanwhile they cure champion woes balancing mainly for the common [terrible] player while on the other hand simply just cycling the LCS roster meta. This has created an effect where safe hardscale champions just get ultra rich through snowball.

Like all that is a very delicate balance which I can empathize on both sides with. (however still my opinion low skilled players should just accept they should improve though)

As for champion winrates though I'm not so sympathetic to using winrates as the gospel of balance. Especially when through certain bias entire swabs of characters are oppressed [especially when they have small playerbases] causing their players to have to overperform as players relative to their same ranked peers.

Riot needs to break the status quo they've been maintaining to rejuvenate this game. Even the common player can smell whats up now.

"Pubstomp" champs should be given a chance for a time. Maybe if you just give it some time elo/winrate distribution will settle out and or players will adjust.

cocacolalipsFeb 24, 20182 votes

you ok bud?

they have 140 champions but they don't have 140 game designers, it's understandable they focus on the outliers more than anything, and shaco isn't an outlier.