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About the Jayce changes. . .

Ariel the Cruel··13 votes·2,425 views

The 6 ranks thing has been tried before. It doesn't work. In order to smooth out the power curve, the first five all have to be made weaker which leads to an unsatisfying experience overall. This was even tested, if you recall. On that 1 champion that Riot deleted.

From that champion, we also learned:

Gaining power at lower health is counter-intuitive and frustrating. Tryndamere Olaf

Kits that have power tied into allied interaction is bad design. Bard Kalista Leona Mordekaiser

Intended supports should never leave bottom lane. Lulu (Still going top.) (But anyone else going support is perfectly fine.)

removing champs from the free-to-play rotation results in them becoming more obscure. Yorick (OK, Yorik is intentional. I just wanted to bring this back up.)

Really strong lane bullies shouldn't have really safe play metrics. Zed Heimerdinger Leblanc Sion Azir

EDIT: Supports shouldn't have to rely on gold income to reach end game. Season 4.

So. . . Of all the things that made karma unworkable. . . What's left that hasn't been blatantly contradicted at this point?

EDIT: clarity.

EDIT: Some people seem to be getting confused about the target of this topic. I'm not targeting Jayce. My complaint is about the specific change being made. This post sums it up nicely (without all the extra QQ).

{quoted}

Its frustrating to see that Jayce is getting the Rank 6 Buff/No nerfs to Earlier Ranks that Karma couldn't have. All due to a Design Philosophy that was being contradicted.

48 Comments

CrazedPorcupine4 votes

Note that none of those champions have all of those things in a single kit.

And it wasn't 6 ranks that made Karma weak, it was the fact that all of Karma's rank 6 abilities were AS STRONG AS EVERYONE ELSE'S RANK 5. Jayce's rank 6 abilties are all stronger than everyone elses rank 5.

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

Which kinda brings us right back to the problem.

Karma's abilities were all weakened to compensate for her having 6 ranks in them. Jayce's abilities aren't being weakened at all. And they both lacked a proper ult, instead using it for [Jayce: extra abilities] [Karma: polarizing effects added to abilities].

Riot stated they had to weaken Karma's abilities to compensate for the extra rank, which was a reason they couldn't salvage the concept. Now they're contradicting that claim by flat-buffing Jayce with the 6th rank.

CrazedPorcupine5 votes

Except, Karma's rank 6 abilities also had alternate effects, which when coupled with her "Bonus AP as HP decreases" Passive, meant that she could shield bomb insta heal for massive nukage and couple that with rank 6 abilites being stronger than rank 5 on top of that, and you get an incredibly toxic (but fun for the user) gameplay that meant that riot had to nerf her.

Jayce has 3 abilities and 2 forms that all have distinct advantages, plus he has very clear moments of power and weakness. Jayce doesn't empower his abilities, he completely switches them.

I'm fine with Jayce having 6 ranks in his abilties since they don't have huge powerful secondary effects tied to them.

6 ranks in abilties on a champion that has no ult and only gains defensive stats at levels 6/11/16. I'm okay with that.

Karma's abilities had 6 ranks, AND had semi-ultimate level bonuses for each of them.

Sire Hippington1 votes

just that jayce has 6skills with 6levels, and his former ult still is a strong spell, free %shred, aditional burt and aditionaly def stats

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

Imagine if Heimerdinger had 6 ranks in all his abilities, his ult still ranked up but for free at levels 6/11/16 and his rank 6 abilities were all stronger than current level 5. and his ult was on a charge system.

Guess what, Heimerdinger would be broken overpowered.

That's EXACTLY what old Karma was like.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Jayce's 6 skills are all on independent cooldown, while karma's secondary skills had 2 cooldowns (one shared). Her ult also didn't serve any function other than to empower her other abilities; it's cooldown was reduced based on her level. Even the mantra'ed abilities used the rank of the core ability (unlike modern karma).

It wasn't her skill set-up that made her strong. It was the fact that she had AoE damage and utility that scaled hard into late game, and was an oppressive lane bully (if used well). This was demonstrated when she was used to slaughter Phreak; and again when she saw a few games in the OGN. But she only went around the free week rotation once and was immediately removed. For years. So almost nobody knew about her (or how to deal with her). (Morello's claim that he hated her kit from day 1 undoubtedly has nothing to do with this.)

Erockandroll3 votes

Those statements are mostly out of date. I'm pretty sure that Riot has More or less changed their minds. (or at least been more tolerant, of them.)

As for Support going mid. I don't know how it was way back when. But the fact that your have mages with supportive like features and supports with mage like features, really blurs the line between Mage and support. But unless a certain support introduces a problematic mechanic (hi Raka) Their really is no reason anymore to not allow Supports to go mid. Mostly because they have the exact same kit as their support counter part, except using their heals shields and poke more effectively because they have AP. And That's actually fine because they sacrifice having a more carry based midlaner taking a support mid.

In Karma's case, Her mid lane is not going away. But it's being Normalized compared to her support position. That meant removing some of the dueling and wave clear mechanics that used specific parts of her ult. Basically making her like a Lulu in having scaling utility.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

Those statements are mostly out of date.

Well, I'd compare Karma's modern kit, but she got just a tad deleted. [I'm part of the "Change Skarma's name" camp.]

As such, this topic is 100% a "now VS then" statement.

I'm pretty sure that Riot has More or less changed their minds.

Pretty much everything they stated as being problematic and unhealthy for game design has been re-introduced. In much more toxic and abusive fashion in some cases (F Kalista). So yes, they have clearly changed their minds. Which makes it sting all the more.

As for Support going mid. I don't know how it was way back when.

If you weren't here back in the "good ol' days", I won't fret over it. Season 4 was very good to Supports as a role (We have more than 1 effective item slot now!). But though less prevalent, Riot still has a trend of nerfing dedicated supports whenever they go somewhere else.

In Karma's case, Her mid lane is not going away.

I'm refering to old Karma, not the modern one. And it's worth noting that Skarma was intended to be a mid-laner and support secondary. Along the same lines as Morgana, Zyra, and Lux. Riot has never had a problem with non-supports supporting, only supports taking solo lanes.

. . .scaling utility.

Not pertinent to the topic in any way, but I still get a laugh out of that joke. It's just so funny.

ZileanUltJesusOP2 votes

you can't give a character such a bad ability that the regular thing to do was not level it. Especially on a transform champ, karma isnt a transform champ. Its completely different

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

you can't give a character such a bad ability that the regular thing to do was not level it.

Which ability was ever not leveled on Karma? Q: AoE and Sustain W: engage/peel and her highest damage ability. E: Shield and AoE

It was common to max her W last unless with a well coordinated team. But I don't know any champs that every level all 3 abilities at the same time. [joke] . . . Syndra Maybe? [/joke]

Especially on a transform champ, karma isnt a transform champ.

Karma's abilities had 2 effects, proctored by her manta (R) Jayce's abilities have 2 effects, toggled by his R. If you really want to argue semantics, they're not too far apart. That said...

Its completely different

It's also not the point I was trying to make. The reason they stated Karma having 6 ranks in her basic abilities and an ult that scaled with character level was that it required them to weaken the basic abilities until that last level. Not only is Jayce getting the same set-up, his abilities weren't even weakened to compensate! It's another blatant contradiction of one of the many reasons they stated Karma was unworkable.

ZileanUltJesusOP1 votes

again karma and jayce are two different champions, just because something doesnt work on one champion doesnt mean it wont work on another. Yes they are way way different, having a different affect on an ability while you are ulting is completely different than having a completely different ability altogether and changing from melee to ranged. Also when i said they didnt level it, i was talking about jayce's R. If you played jayce before you would know to never put a point into R until it made you. If an ability is that abd that you arent even leveling it something is wrong. Jayce needed a buff so they fixed his weak ass R problem and buffed him in one go. It makes a lot of sense honestly.

DirkTarTar2 votes

Actually these changes have been pretty awesome for Jayce, and he is still vulnerable to the things he was vulnerable before..... someone jumping on him and beating his face in like Riven or Fiora

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

I agree the Jayce buffs are pretty nice.

A lot of people seem to be getting confused about the target of this topic. It's not Jayce. It's the specific type of change they are making to his kit, which they said was bad design before and used it as an excuse to effectively delete another champion.

DirkTarTar2 votes

Then your topic seems to be pretty much pointless, tbh and no offense. Because what works or doesn't work for one champ doesn't mean it will have the same effect on a different one.

The "specific type of change they are making to his kit" seems to be working for him, but that obviously doesn't mean it worked ever in the past or will work on any other champion in the future...

So yes, everyone is pretty confused about your point, because your point is unclear as well as ignorable because no two champions are alike enough to be able to apply the same patching mentality to both in a perfectly effective manner.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Then your topic seems to be pretty much pointless, tbh and no offense.

" Well, I'd compare Karma's modern kit, but she got just a tad deleted. [I'm part of the "Change Skarma's name" camp.] As such, this topic is 100% a "now VS then" statement. "

This topic is completely pointless in the sense that it won't have any impact on the game or Riot's decisions. Riot wiped their hands of the Karma F-up a long time ago (even in the face of complaint threads reaching 1k+ pages). The point of this topic, and really any topic that references Karma, is to vent frustration. Riot effectively deleted a champion, ignored the community, and claimed that almost nothing in her kit was healthy for the game. Now when they go back and re-introduce the very things they said couldn't be done (and make them worse in Kalista's case), it's like a[nother] slap in the face.

This post sums it up nicely:

{quoted}

Its frustrating to see that Jayce is getting the Rank 6 Buff/No nerfs to Earlier Ranks that Karma couldn't have. All due to a Design Philosophy that was being contradicted.

Souijinn2 votes

Its frustrating to see that Jayce is getting the Rank 6 Buff/No nerfs to Earlier Ranks that Karma couldn't have. All due to a Design Philosophy that was being contradicted.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Thank you! You've also been added to the Opener. Enjoy.

Sachabot1 votes

You make excellent points, I thought something along these lines when they announced the change. But.....Jayce isn't a support, why throw the Lulu thing in?

Terff4 votes

she's talking about karma.

Sachabot1 votes

I know, but as her old form relates to Jayce. Jayce isn't a support, and is comfortable in multiple positions, so the lesson learned there is kinda pointless here.

Sire Hippington2 votes

i played old karma mostly as sololaner(same with the new...) and she even could work as jungler. She was and still is one off the champs that is most confortable in multiple positions.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

Karma was intended to be a dedicated support. She had the capacity to go anywhere. Just like Jayce was intended to be an ADC, but he functions almost everywhere.

However, Karma being used outside her intended role was stated as one of the reasons for the deletion rework. Though ironically, she went to other roles because she scaled super hard. Back then, Support didn't have a gold income; they just bought wards. Supports were expected to rely on base values to do their job all game. Enter season 4 . . .

masterdragon4814 votes

Where was it stated that Jayce was intended as an adc? I don't ever remember that being discussed or even suggested. I thought he was always suppose to be this flexible top laner.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

trudged through the old forums and found mentions of him going pretty much everywhere. So my bad on this one, I guess.

But the fact remains, Karma was comfortable in multiple positions. Riot simply didn't want her to be because she was supposed to be a support. ("support" defined as the ADC's personal ward slave.)

masterdragon4811 votes

Regarding Karma/ support, that is no longer the definition of support as the role has shifted and been given many new tools to make the role more than a ward slave. Therefore, I have to take the stance that any arguments made using Karma in this manner are outdated and not applicable.

Aside from that, I don't really see much karma in the game at any point in time so its tough to say whether the 6 point thing works for her. The last time I had to play against one, I was counterpicked because I was playing Reksai (I thought i was against a hec) and while no major mistakes were made, we ultimately lost in no small part due to Karma's actions. So I wouldn't say she is weak by any means.

Similarly, I don't think a 6 point Jayce is a bad thing. Granted, I am a little unfamiliar with how quickly abilities can be maxed on champions like this. For example, normally I know that the first ability is maxed at level 9. With 6 point abilities, I don't know if that still applies.

His poke just got MUCH stronger and all it means is that your E lags in damage for a little longer (an ability he didn't use very frequently anyway). I don't see his power level being negatively affected all that much.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Aside from that, I don't really see much karma in the game at any point in time so its tough to say whether the 6 point thing works for her.

Just to make sure it's clear. I'm referring to Karma pre-replacement. She played nothing like she is now. And nothing like any champs currently in the roster, actually.

Similarly, I don't think a 6 point Jayce is a bad thing.

the opening post has been edited to clarify this, But I don't actually have a problem with Jayce. The complaint is that, once again, Riot has reintroduced a concept that got another champion effectively deleted because it was unworkable. The only significant difference between Jayce now and Karma then (in regards to this) is that karmas skills were kept intentionally weak to compensate for the 6th rank. Jayce is getting a straight buff.

At this point, there's nothing left of Karma's old "unworkable kit" that hasn't been reproduced. In some cases (Kali), they've been re-introduced in a much worse fashion.

Narasimha1 votes

Why on earth do you think Jayce was meant to be an ADC? Do you think Nidalee was supposed to be an ADC too?

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

I think she was a support hybrid, but I honestly don't know. She's way to old and I simply don't remember. (I'd have to check her release date to see if I was even around then.)

Narasimha1 votes

Yeah, she's beyond my time too.

Still, I was there for Jayce's release, and NO ONE ever considered him an adc. Well, outside of those few people, you know who I mean, the people who tried to adc Gnar. His range was too low, and his burst was much better than sitting there in cannon form. He was always meant to be a top lane switcher.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

"He".

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Jayce isn't a support

I wasn't targeting Jayce specifically as a champion. I was targeting the change to his kit. role identity has nothing to do with that bullet.

why throw the Lulu thing in

Riot has a tradition of nerfing any support for going to other lanes. One of the stated reasons for karma's deletion rework was that she saw very little success in her intended role (support) as compared to when she took a solo lane. Lulu is currently sitting in nearly the same spot, but Riot is just throwing their hands in the air and letting her be viable (though weaker in the current meta).

Sachabot1 votes

Ah. I understand now, thank you for the clarity.

UdoIkOSc4u1 votes

lulu is in list for a visual update not gameplay

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Huh? When did that change? They stated before they were going to rework her game play to make her healthy for top lane.

My bad. Missed that one.

FourVsFive1 votes

Get a jayce and nid on same team you got ad/ap pokers that can poke from mile away very frustrating heh.

Sachabot1 votes

Jayce top, Nid jungle, Ez mid, Corki/Janna bot. >>

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Sion Top LeeSin Jungle Vladimir Mid Sivir ADC Nami Support

Super-poke team? Meet Super-engage team.

Sachabot2 votes

No Malphite mid? XD I still love it. Kinda want to see the two go head-to-head now.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

No Malphite mid

Sion, Lee, Sivir, and Malphite are all primarily physical damage. Need a magic damage mid to round it out. Vlad also has that nice little damage amp ult to use while Nami and Sion keep their team locked down.

iamleburk1 votes

Malphitie mid is generally played AP. Was actually used in the LCS last week; his R-Q-W managed to burst people pretty low (but not fully burst like a true assassin)

Meep Man1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8IojtJEJ,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-06-12T19:41:46.480+0000)

Sion Top LeeSin Jungle Vladimir Mid Sivir ADC Nami Support

Super-poke team? Meet Super-engage team.

You could just get a bunch of Tanks instead. Raid Boss Team.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

DrMundo top Maokai Jungle Vladimir mid Graves ADC Braum Support

With a bit of sustain to boot. Work for you? XD

Skia Asteri1 votes

It changed very little, because he did not level his ultimate until everything else was maxed anyways.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

And originally, Karma's ult only had 1 level. Same set-up Jayce is now getting.

Centuros1 votes

Pretty sure Trynd and Olaf had those mechanics FIRST.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

They did.

Quort1 votes

Riot's design philosophies have changed significantly. I play Bard all the time and he is incredibly fun and rewarding! :3

Souijinn1 votes

So looking through the "Tips" against Jayce, It literally said he was strong Early Game.

Either that is outdated, OR Riot is buffing Jayce and is going to make him scale way too well throughout the whole game. Not to mention He's AD which means He will do damage regardless of skills. So now Riot isn't just contradicting a Design Philosophy, but Jayce isn't going to see Compensation nerfs.

I would rather they have the Early ranks still be the same as before, but then make the ranking smaller to revert the buffs, because I would see no need to buff a champ that does well early on.

Also AOE Nid Spears. Can't Pink those.

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