Why doesn't Trynds ult scale with levels?

Sirsir·Nov 29, 2015·142 votes·5,637 views

Why does the biggest part of his ult not scale with level? Not dying for 3/4/5 seconds sounds much more managable than 5 seconds no matter what. Instead he hits 6 and wins lane.

198 Comments

AnidanNov 29, 201523 votes

I'm guessing it's because 3 seconds would feel like absolute shit to play with for Tryndamere.

A Miss FortuneNov 29, 201525 votes

Now Tryndamere mains will know what it feels like to play against them.

Mast3rShakeNov 29, 20152 votes

You can play Tryndamere too!

A Miss FortuneNov 29, 201515 votes

My cat can play Tryndamere too, he has sat on the mouse and R button at the same time before I'm pretty sure he's a Tryndamain now.

Troll for TrumpNov 29, 20154 votes

Karthus ?

Mecha MaIphiteNov 29, 201512 votes

karthus ult lvl 1 does about as much as a few of his autos

unless you're one of those people who builds him AD in which case it deals even less

doombotMECHANov 30, 20153 votes

yea ppl dont realize that a lot of karth vader's power comes from his q and his ability to constantly pump out harrass

AudiomancyNov 30, 20152 votes

That's literally Kayle's ult at max rank, though she can't cast it if she has been CC'd.

Sir HammerlockNov 29, 201516 votes

His ult used to scale 5/6/7, be happy it's just 5 now.

Dingding123Nov 29, 201515 votes

actually it used to be a maximum of 8 seconds

man, the good ol' days, in season 1. When everyone was ridiculous.

Auz the RipperNov 29, 20158 votes

However, it couldn't be activated through CC like it can now

TotalJerkNov 29, 201515 votes

3 seconds means ignite auto counters Tryndamere

dangopeeNov 29, 201528 votes

So his ult shouldn't have any counter play?

AuryielNov 29, 20158 votes

lol His whole kit has no counterplay except ''don't get hit''

Guess his ult should be impossible to counter to? sigh

TaarkiNov 29, 20154 votes

CC, Kite, dashes, burst,CC, CC, CC, Ignite, Heal reduction, CC, armor, HP, CC, Burst, CC, tenacity, CC.

CindikleNov 29, 20155 votes

CC, effective HP and "out damage" are not counterplay.

Putting a pink in Akali's shroud is counterplay. Using hourglass/scimitar to avoid taking damage is counterplay.

Counterplay is something you can do to handle a situation better at any given moment. Something that makes what someone else do, a possible risk.

CC does fall into this, but that's usually a champion based thing. Thus is counter-picking. Outside of that all you'll get is slows from items. which usually means kiting was the counterplay. Not the item. The slow just makes it easier to do.

Ignite/heal reduction doesn't really counter his ult. It gives a small heal at the end. As long as he uses his own heal with it or get some lifesteal he'll easily survive the ignite.

JustMyBassCannonNov 29, 20155 votes

I've done the math, and between levels 8 and 13, using Ignite during the last second of his ultimate will guarantee a kill. After level 13, using it two seconds before it ends will deal enough damage to kill him. Both of these are assuming he takes no other damage whatsoever post-heal.

EDIT: ~~Actually, redoing that math, forgot his Q only heals 300 at level 9 with full Fury.~~

As it turns out, at level 6, 2 seconds before his ultimate ends will still deal lethal damage despite his heal. At level 7, you'd need to do it last-second, and by level 12-13, it's back to 2 seconds before it ends.

Alright, as it turns out, it's generally only going to work if you use Ignite during the last second of his ultimate, because he's going to heal up to the minimum of 3% of his max HP from his ultimate. I forgot about that detail.

LordGeovanniNov 29, 20151 votes

this is all assumeing that he doesnt have minions to life steal crit around

JustMyBassCannonNov 30, 20151 votes

"Ohh no, I can't guarantee a kill on someone who ran away from the fight with Ignite, what will I do?"

LordGeovanniNov 30, 20151 votes

except trynda doesnt run from a fight its you as his opponent who is running hoping that the ignite will kill him before he crit fuks you

JustMyBassCannonNov 30, 20151 votes

That has...what to do with your previous comment? If Tryndamere is getting Lifesteal off of minions, he didn't stick around to fight you.

LordGeovanniNov 30, 20151 votes

if you fight him and try to leave hopeing that ignite will finish him after his ult he can easily turn to the minions you are most likely fighting him with he can just turn to them rather than trying to chase to heal and still use his q

JustMyBassCannonNov 30, 20152 votes

And you were fighting Tryndamere next to a minion wave...why?

Anyone who consistently plays top lane knows that the majority of top lane fights happen either right after clearing the wave or after bullying someone out of the wave.

Gregor GysiNov 29, 201515 votes

Implying his Ult doesn't have counterplay atm.

Remlap1223Nov 29, 201515 votes

Well, it can't be cancelled with silences, before or during, it increases his fury rather than decreasing it, and on a melee carry that has insane damage, it's basically a godsend.

You're only counterplay is ignite, and that means you have to forego TP as a top laner, just so Tryndamere doesn't auto win lane (which happens half the time anyways because of that goddamn crit and new masteries.

Taking ignite is not acceptable counterplay. Even if you do ignite and kill him in lane, he's got a three minute window to violently murder you.

badoogaNov 29, 20151 votes

Considering how many top laners take summoner 12 over summoner 14 , I find it a fair tradeoff. After all, it should be superior in solo fights but not as good when it is 1 v 5

AL000Nov 29, 20151 votes

i prefer to take summoner 12 + summoner 14

flash is for mid and bot only... and possible jungler... imho...

ayNigerianPrinceNov 29, 20157 votes

Flash is pretty much mandatory on almost every single champ. And there's no roles that do NOT use it.

LordGeovanniNov 29, 20151 votes

it always did just ignite at the ending of his ult

FluxBoundNov 29, 20156 votes

because I'll be alive at that point

Slamurai JackNov 30, 201512 votes

I think you'll find that each second of being unable to die is worth considerably more the later the game goes. A Tryndamere that is unable to die for 5 seconds and can kill you in 2-3 hits with his 6 items is a lot scarier than a Tryndamere that in unable to die for 5 seconds but has only 1 item. It doesn't scale directly with rank, but the value of being unkillable goes up with time.

HopFroggerNov 30, 20153 votes

This, exactly.

TaarkiNov 29, 201511 votes

I agree. I think 5/7/9 seconds is a reasonable scaling.

Need Gold 4 TentNov 29, 201510 votes

Because it already scales with levels on its own without being scaled. Early game Trynd won't be able to do much to you within that 5 seconds when he has no items (assuming level 6). Lategame however, that same 5 seconds gives him time to kill 3 people with full build, that's how he scales

dangopeeNov 29, 201550 votes

That's scaling with items.

zangagerNov 29, 201511 votes

Trynd is based around items. He lives on items. Without items trynd is nothing.

dangopeeNov 29, 201524 votes

So he's item dependent. What's your point? This thread is about scaling with levels.

The Yetii RiderNov 29, 20154 votes

{quoted}

So he's item dependent. What's your point? This thread is about scaling with levels.

Marksmen don't scale with levels, and that's what Tryn is. He's a melee marksman. Marksmen scale with items, their abilities are intended to be meaningless, that's why they are allowed to have easy 40% CDR now.

FluxBoundNov 29, 201513 votes

Except Marksmen don't have an ability that makes them unkillable for 5 seconds

OneSmoothDudeNov 30, 20156 votes

Technically, I guess. Kindred's only lasts for four seconds.

WestonbirtNov 30, 20155 votes

And it's not unique to Kindred. ALL units in the circle of love wont die, including potentially your target and his friends.

SirHeavyScrotumNov 30, 20152 votes

"melee marksman"

BârdNov 30, 20154 votes

Melee adc is a better term for trynd.

EcchiOtakuTMNov 30, 20151 votes

Before they changed the terms tryn, yi, gp were adcs along with the marksmens

SirHeavyScrotumNov 30, 20151 votes

Yes, I'm aware. I was pointing out the fact that "melee marksman" is a contradictory statement that I found funny.

EcchiOtakuTMDec 1, 20152 votes

Lol when I read this comment at first I was laughing at the joke, then laughing that I didn't think of that, then felt sad cause I didn't understand until told.....

SirHeavyScrotumDec 11, 20152 votes

Haha, you'll get there one day kid :P

RocketRelmNov 29, 20159 votes

Honestly if you need it to scale I think it really shouldn't scale on duration. Tryn Ult lasting a consistent amount of time means that everyone needs to only get used to one duration. How would it feel if Nidalee Spear got increased range on level? If MF's Bullet Time got a Wider Arc? If Zhoynas Hourglass lasted from 2 to 3.5 seconds scaling up on Character Level?

These are things that have an opportunity cost in both the player and the enemy needing to adjust to multiple different 'ranges' and 'durations' of abilities, making Tryn Ult scale on level would mean people would need to check his level to know when it ends. This is why generally spells increase in frequency of use and raw power, but rarely ever 'range' and 'aoe'.

PickleBabahNov 29, 20153 votes

To be fair, two of your three examples were skillshots, which don't really apply to the situation (you react differently to skillshots), and all items are always consistent, regardless of level champion, or whatever, so it shouldn't really be put as an example towards balancing a specific champion. Honestly, knowing Trynd's ult level shouldn't really ever be that much of a secret, or an obstacle in managing balance. It's easy -- press tab, check trynd's ult, and know if it's 3, 4, or 5 seconds.

I should also mention that people getting already are adjusting to up-times and down-times throughout games, like spell cooldowns. Trynd's ult will have 110 seconds, then 100 seconds. It's not really as game breaking as it sounds, and though it is on a much larger scale, the idea remains the same. You have to adjust throughout the game, to each situation, in your item patterns, and your play patterns. Windows of opportunities are constantly shifting. There are way too many cases and examples where this would apply.

RocketRelmNov 30, 20153 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, two of your three examples were skillshots, which don't really apply to the situation (you react differently to skillshots), and all items are always consistent, regardless of level champion, or whatever, so it shouldn't really be put as an example towards balancing a specific champion. Honestly, knowing Trynd's ult level shouldn't really ever be that much of a secret, or an obstacle in managing balance. It's easy -- press tab, check trynd's ult, and know if it's 3, 4, or 5 seconds.

The issue is a timing feel and whether the added complexity adds to the game as a whole, or if the same result can be achieved without making clarity suffer. Balance and clarity are both goals and when you can accomplish both without either suffering, that is a better result than sacrificing one. I can give examples that aren't linear skill shots, as well.

Xerath Ult having more charges based on level. Finish dodging three shots, quick better hit tab while under siege to check if the enemy xerath is 10 or 11. Zilean ult making allies revive faster scaling on ult level, gotta memorize three different 'timings' on when to toss a skillshot at somebody the second they respawn. Orianna's Tether range going up with level, such that people get a harder idea of how to pin down where her threat radius is.