Hashinshin complaining that Bruisers do no damage to Tanks and that Tanks are weak against Mages

taleofsonata··52 votes·15,005 views

Ah, the Irony... Mages need huge amounts of pen and magic pen just to deal with Tanks health pool and health regen from Warmogs abuse + spirit visage. While bruisers shred the living shit out of tanks with just Black Cleaver or Conqueror.

Hashinshin doesn't know that BATTLEMAGE = BRUISERS, They are meant to do what Bruisers does and they are the MAGIC VERSION OF BRUISERS, they are much squishier than bruisers but they play arounds Shield rotation or Healing Rotation.

Ryze or Vladimir

Look at the core items of these 2 champions, Protobelt and Archangels,

Most mages don't even go these 2 items and rather stick to Luden's Echoe because they are either super strong early game but useless late game or super weak early game but super strong late game.

Luden's echoe provide power through the whole game, it is a strong powerspike.

The reason why there is Less MR in the game is because MR is so much more stronger than Armor, you can build shit tons of armor but it doesn't matter because true damage on hit exist and conqueror as well as black cleaver. If you build 15 Magic resist but have a shit tons of health regen and health pool which pretty much all MR tank items gives, it's all about playing smart. All you gotta do is wait 5 sec out of combat with warmogs to then reengage them.

Bruisers are such a crybabies that they are complaining that they can't deal with a class. It's the same situation where you can say, ADC can't fight assassins, because they don't have the kit to deal with them.

122 Comments

Zardo53 votes

Hashinshin calls AP assassins mages as well and uses them as justification that mages are broken. I got banned from his channel for asking him how katarina and leblanc were mages.

taleofsonata15 votes

{quoted}

Hashinshin calls AP assassins mages as well and uses them as justification that mages are broken. I got banned from his channel for asking him how katarina and leblanc were mages.

Thank go when he visited Riot HQ, the balance team didn't want to talk to him like the previous mistake they made by introducing conqueror to the game.

taleofsonata12 votes

{quoted}

Hashinshin calls AP assassins mages as well and uses them as justification that mages are broken. I got banned from his channel for asking him how katarina and leblanc were mages.

Someone got banned from his channel because he said Jax outscale Camille at lv 6.

MrFawknSunshine26 votes

{quoted}

Hashinshin calls AP assassins mages as well and uses them as justification that mages are broken. I got banned from his channel for asking him how katarina and leblanc were mages.

hashinshin bans any one who dont fall in line with his ideology.

taleofsonata9 votes

{quoted}

hashinshin bans any one who dont fall in line with his ideology.

And He should get banned by riot in that case, Respect the community and your game. Everytime he decides to ban someone he should be banned for a day or get matchup with AFK junglers who doesn't gank his lane and doesn't want to help him.

Spooks and Null7 votes

So you're advocating that Riot censor content creators from doing what they want. Not saying Hash is cool for banning people. But you're literally advocating for a Billion Dollar Corporation to control what their unpaid content producers can and can't do.

TotalJerk1 votes

LeBlanc and Kat are kinda weird, though. LeBlanc is a mage/assassin hybrid that leans more on the assassin side. Katarina is less about picking off isolated targets in the early/mid game, and more about cleaning up teamfights in the late game akin to Master Yi or something.

Better champions to mention in a discussion about AP assassins would've been Fizz, Diana, Kassadin, or Nidalee.

OtterlyLost1 votes

Except Diana isn't an Assassin; she's an AP Bruiser. .-. AP Bruiser itemization just sucks.

TotalJerk2 votes

I mean... Reddit was blowing up the other day when Riot proposed some changes to push her more torwards the bruiser role because they were like "What's wrong with champions being able to instantly oneshot from 1000 units away over a wall just macro better 4Head"

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Hashinshin calls AP assassins mages as well and uses them as justification that mages are broken. I got banned from his channel for asking him how katarina and leblanc were mages.

Everyone calls Ahri Diana assassin's but they aren't.

Ahri's a Mage. Diana's an AP bruiser.

HP Crookshanks3 votes

Ahri is an assassin/mage hybrid

OgSc3 votes

Ahri is an assasin. Assasins are a mix of high damage (usually burst damage) and high mobility. Ahri has both.

Diana is a diver (great all in and stick, no/ very conditional escape) that is BUILT like an assasin. There is a difference between being an assasin and building like an assasin.

Akali is SO HOT27 votes

I honestly can't remember the last time someone bought Warmogs that wasn't on ARAM.

letsfeedtogether2 votes

I see it only when i am against a mundo

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Doesnt most Sejuani´s end up building it? I certainly do quite often......

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

Sej and Mundo might be the only champs that build it. I don't think I typically see them building it the first 2-3 core items though.

Anu3isII3 votes

Some people build it on Shen and Ornn , but that is kinda it.

Cry of the Celts2 votes

Ornn build warmog as 5th 6th item, so practically never

floo2 votes

Zac

Sanghelios22 votes

Multiple factors.

Mages going toplane, winning the laningphase, outscaling and out-teamfighting bruisers in the lategame.

  • Mage itemization is cheaper and scales better than bruiser itemization (let that sink in for a minute)
  1. Protobelt is a 2500 gold item that provides a huge spike too early in the game
  2. Mage itemization is streamlined, cost-efficient and basically has no downsides
  3. Zhonyas is an EXTREMELY powerful item, with an amazing build path
  4. Mage builds end in Void Staff+Deathcap which can not be itemized against
  5. Void Staff provides 40% magic pen for 2650 gold, tanks typically only build one MR item
  6. Liandry's isn't actually necessary to deal with tanks
  7. Luden's Echo is an unfathomably strong item (seriously, look up the stats on it)
  8. Stopwatch being a general frustration to play against

Ok, let's look at bruiser itemization.

The Black Cleaver

  • 3000 Gold
  • Good midgame powerspike
  • Falls off lategame
  • Mediocre build path

Trinity Force

  • 3733 Gold
  • Amazing midgame powerspike
  • Falls off lategame
  • Awful build path

Steraks Gage

  • 3200 Gold
  • Necessary item on most bruisers
  • Awful build path
  • No cooldown reduction

Frozen Mallet/Titanic Hydra/.....

  • Useless on most champions
  • Worse than the above items
  • Can not be integrated in most bruiser builds because by the time you can build them, tank items will be a necessity (Thorn Mail/Randuins/Glory/Visage..)
  • Too expensive for what they provide (niche tank items like Deadman's Plate also fall into this category)

The exceptions: Bruisers that follow up their build with Death's Dance/Spear of Shojin. Aatrox, Riven, Jax etc. Coincidentally, these champions are considered the strongest bruisers right now.

Spooks and Null10 votes

Here's some fun stats from MSI, With a lil bit of salt on the side.

Presence: The number of games at MSI in which the champion was either banned, or picked if they weren't banned

Jayce: 100% Presence Akali: 100% Presence (inc. Mid, tho she was only flexed to mid) Kennen: 71% Presence Ryze: 69% Presence (Excl. Mid) Neeko: 50% Presence (Excl. Mid/Supp/ADC) Sylas: 67% Presence (Excl. Mid, where if we did include, he would be at 100%) Hecarim: 17% Presence (Excl. Jg) Aatrox: 7% Presence

"Bruisers are overpowered. Nerf conqueror!" MSI was played on 9.8. Before the conqueror nerf in 9.10. Conqueror was the least used rune in top lane, Aside from Guardian/Glacial Augment/Predator/Hail of Blades/Dark Harvest/Lethal Tempo (Aka runes no top laner ever takes), only being ran on Irelia (when she was flexed Top instead of Mid), Akali once, Hecarim for all 3 of his games, Yasuo for the one game he was played, and a single time when Jayce took it after they forgot to swap runes.

9.8 was also the patch in which Hecarim was "overpowered", and was tied with Riven for the "best top laner in the game". He recieved a gigantic nerf on patch 9.9.

The only "Tank" played at MSI in top lane was Cho'gath, who recieved 0 bans, and a single pick, for a game he lost. Gnar is the only "Bruiser" with a positive Winrate for top lane, at MSI.

EDIT: The Juicy Sauce, https://gol.gg/tournament/tournament-stats/Mid-Season%20Invitational%202019/

Ragnaveil3 votes

"Mages are too weak! Bruisers need nerfs! Toplane isn't shit!" Right, kinda wish people that look at the lane from the outside would shut their mouths for once. The lane honestly feels the worst its been since tank wet noodle fights. The TP nerf killed any influence top could have on the map since you would have to hard commit on a tp with your uncoordinated team. The moment you are first to 3rd pick for top (on any side) is the moment you fucked up. And even if you manage to get last pick, pray to the lord the enemy doesn't pick something that its sole counter was banned by them. Without jg help, toplane pretty much functions like the island it once was.

ZapFreeMan20 votes

"ADC can't fight assassins, because they don't have the kit to deal with them." Assassins can't go bottom and lane against ADC's. But mages can go top and auto win because they're ranged vs melee

TF blade also says that mages are broken at the moment. But he's just another scrub like hashinshin right?

Thefrostyviking9 votes

TF blade started complaining about mages when Riot removed the magic damage reduction on Irelia´s W.......

And fighting someone vs laning against them are different, i seriously think there are at least a few marksmen who could lane against say Zed or fizz up until level 6 and do just fine, even 1v1.

Its after that that it doesnt work anymore, and in botlane supports who are made to bully marksmen would just stomp any laning assassin into the ground-

Ragnaveil2 votes

Which was removed because mages complained about her being mid. But hey, fuck us toplaners who have mages in our lane that we dont want in our lane that wont leave because those same mage players don't care.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Riot removing stuff because "mages" complained [sg-miss-fortune] [sg-miss-fortune] '

Bwhahahahahahaha.


No but lets be real, the reason it was removed is because Irelia mid by default is really strong even without the damage reduction on her W as she is effectively made to counter ranged picks, who are often found in midlane.

And without any pesky support to screw her over like in botlane.

She was too good in proplay so riot removed her magic damage reduction to make her more manageable and it worked......although i´d still say she is really strong when the player knows how she rolls&matchups.......at least into ranged. '' ,..,,,Well to be accurate the core of the issue here is proplay, nothing else.

And toplane? Mages like sololanes, they also like melee who cant reach them unlike say Irelia, jax or any assassin so toplane is actually really ideal.

Way to fix this? Doesnt exist, and creating one that doesnt break half the game would probably be the result of a miracle.

Ragnaveil2 votes

Her damage reduction was icing on the cake, the real issue is the insane amount of burst she had (and still has) due to how the marking reset works. That hasn't been addressed at all.

Ahri Baka6 votes

{quoted}

"ADC can't fight assassins, because they don't have the kit to deal with them." Assassins can't go bottom and lane against ADC's. But mages can go top and auto win because they're ranged vs melee

TF blade also says that mages are broken at the moment. But he's just another scrub like hashinshin right?

TF Blade thinks Irelia and Akali are weak so yes he is.

A Chaotic Mind2 votes

mages dominated top at MSI but the board is filled with bronze trash still complaining about that garbage rune named conqueror

PaffWasTaken19 votes

"Warmog's abuse"

lol

Cevrad3 votes

Right? Its literally only bought as a core item on Sejuani cause of the synergy with her W.

GodlyBane16 votes

Yikes trying to argue mages arent broken

SweedishGunner7 votes

You say that like it's every mage, when it's only a few.

Pandemic Punch15 votes

People always exaggerated what tanks were capable of even during their peak. During that time, old Fiora and old Irelia were still considered THE best picks for solo queue while only a few Tanks were ranked one tier below them.

Hashinshin is wrong about pretty much everything in regards to how Top Lane should work. Bruisers and Fighters shouldn't be able to dominate lane AND game.

Marshbouy15 votes

Like, the only characters tanks can't beat 1v1 are bruisers lmfao.

Hash is probably just mad that he can't 1v2 an enemy bot lane with a 1.2k gold lead, again.

Lazy Grandpa5 votes

{quoted}

Like, the only characters tanks can't beat 1v1 are bruisers lmfao.

Hash is probably just mad that he can't 1v2 an enemy bot lane with a 1.2k gold lead, again.

so according to you it would be totally fine if tanks can 1v1 everyone in the game? i was under the impressoin they were designed for team fights and be a tank for the team, not to be king of 1v1's.

Madsin251 votes

Tanks have to win early game through their high base dmgs because they get massively outscaled later in the game.

If they can't win the 1v1 in the laning phase then it's over, they will get smashed in lane and be way to far behind to tank anything for their team.

This is why tanks hate fighting bruisers, they lose the 1v1 and then are worthless the rest of the game.

Lazy Grandpa1 votes

i thought what tanks were supposed to do is stonewall the lane, have enough sustain and survivability to not die 1v1, and farm up without being able to kill the enemy either. tank items are the cheapest in the game especially compared to bruisers. tanks have all the skills that allow the enemy to legally afk for 10 seconds, so enemys have a hard time turret diving. not having your tower go down first and keeping up with cs is winning lane as tank, then you just win team fights.

if i play a champ that conqueror isn't good anymore you can only push waves and roam, because you're gonna lose every fight because tanks have ridiculous base damage while reducing all your damage and it takes them less gold to do it.

although i might be wrong, i might be biased with inexperience since my main is tryndamere and picking conqueror on tryndamere against some tanks is basically not taking a keystone at all since you'l never get to proc it with auto attacks until late game.

Sucction2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazy Grandpa,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8AZFuE57,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-20T17:24:54.822+0000)

i thought what tanks were supposed to do is stonewall the lane, have enough sustain and survivability to not die 1v1, and farm up without being able to kill the enemy either. tank items are the cheapest in the game especially compared to bruisers. tanks have all the skills that allow the enemy to legally afk for 10 seconds, so enemys have a hard time turret diving. not having your tower go down first and keeping up with cs is winning lane as tank, then you just win team fights.

if i play a champ that conqueror isn't good anymore you can only push waves and roam, because you're gonna lose every fight because tanks have ridiculous base damage while reducing all your damage and it takes them less gold to do it.

although i might be wrong, i might be biased with inexperience since my main is tryndamere and picking conqueror on tryndamere against some tanks is basically not taking a keystone at all since you'l never get to proc it with auto attacks until late game.

Tanks stonewalling the lane is in part what makes top such a miserable place

The thigh guy10 votes

Hashinshin is an idiot who thinks bruisers should be the only playable class in the game.

FSRER8 votes

MR is stronger than armor on their passives BUT you can't ignore the fact that most mages are able to 100 to 0 you with no items because of their base damage and scaling being higher even than tank abilities. Take brand as an example, the infamous champions that does dmg even with 0/10 as long as he gets 1 item. What can you do against that? Ok, he is 0/10 build a spirit visage and just kill him. What to do if he is 10/0 tho and you are a tank? Build spirit visage, adaptive helmet and...OH WAIT, he already has sorcerers boots and void staff earning in total 58 magic pen which you are NOT able to do as any other class in the game, heck, even champ (with the exception of Darius). And abot what you said about spirit visage giving health regen...yeah...item 3165 70 ap 300 health, magic pen, grievious wounds and now to add that to 58 magic pen we already had, 58+15=63 magic pen....YEAH that when with a full magic resist build on lets say, sion, you can have about 230 magic resist which falls down to 160-180 and because mages have items that give up to +1k mana, they are able to spam abilities so much that even that 230 mr will feel heavy damage. And I haven't yet mentioned Liandrys torment which gives BONUS DAMAGE AS LONG AS YOU POKING SOMEONE. You say that the magic resist items have great passives and yet you don't mention what a average mages items give as passives. And since when is Ryze's core item a protobelt?! Every ryze I see goes archangels and frozen heart feeling no damage, spamming heavy damage and shielding alongside with speeding up himself in the process.

letsfeedtogether7 votes

Hashinshin blames his jungler for lisging HIS OWN LANE because he thinks all of the gamr is around top lane. He dosent even buy anti healing and then say vlad healing is broken early game. (not sayig vlad isnt broken)

This player just thinks he's the best and everybody is wrong. No reason to lisen to him at all.****

Biscuit Bite4 votes

Hashinshin is insecure.

Eleshakai3 votes

People still care what Hashinshin says? I... figured we'd all learned better by now...

Hot LeBlanc Yuri3 votes

Imagine taking ANYTHING that he says seriously and as anything more than a biased opinion. [sg-miss-fortune]

Sucction3 votes

Bruisers currently are great against tanks!

Though...If they do rework or continue to nerf Conqueror, that statement might no longer be true.

Mages uber suck against tanks though. Only like Brand is really good into them.

The only other magic-damage tank killer is Evelynn (I know that sounds stupid, but seriously go check out her W and E.)

Did he accidently say it all backwards? I"m confused

FiveAneurysms2 votes

Dont mind me just looking for Moody P's comment

G Master Hung2 votes

Yea. Hash really just blurts stuff out and speaks nonsense a lot of the times. I got banned from his channel from asking how Aatrox was weak after the changes he just received.

Jennifer4202 votes

hashinshin is literally the person who is spreaking with his tilt, not with his brain. one time he is a lv 4 jax with 20% hp towerdiving a lv 5 jayce with 100% hp, he dies without doing any damage and then says in stream "wow jayce is so fucking op, literally cant harm the guy he can just hammer me away" even tho jayce just fought him straight under tower which took less than 2 sek lol.

the other time he is actually explaining some stuff about % values and why they are so strong AND HE MAKES ACTUALLY SENSE!

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