Don't you just hate it when Ashe's passive triggers on a minion? Suddenly all that time you spent waiting is lost, and for absolutely no gain.
Why not have Focus only be Champion-specific? You wouldn't be left with awkward "oh, my passive's charged, can't last-hit" moments in laning. Those just blow. And why use it intentionally on a minion? It never is worth the trade-off.
Riot, don't leave this unanswered.
Anarchomagus13 votesbecause that would basically be 100% crit chance in the laning phase
ashe isnt THAT underpowered
darkdill10 votesCrit on ONE SHOT. Lower the stack rate if needed, but it wouldn't get wasted on minions.
Anarchomagus21 votesSorry, let me clarify my meaning; when Ashe has full focus, her zoning capacity significantly rises because an auto attack exchange is guaranteed to go in her favor. In effect, she forces her opponent into a lose-lose scenario; they can lose cs or be forced into an exchange that they will automatically lose. were Ashe able to maintain that scenario indefinitely while csing, the enemy ADC would be forced to take that attack every time Ashe's passive was active. Forcing Ashe to choose between killing creeps and maintaining increased zoning power effectively puts a 'timer' on her passive.
Not that her passive is particularly good, mind you. But your change would make it good and, in riot's eyes, make her OP (they've said before that they consider her balanced but unfavored by the meta)
edit: fixed to make more sense. damn you autocorrect
Willahelm Fulber3 votesHere's the thing; her passive still doesn't charge if she autoattacks creeps, so the enemy has to survive one crit (basically any shield/heal will counterbalance it) every once in a while, the same as it does now, but she can't totally zone you because she still has to stop csing to let it charge up.
Anarchomagus7 votesthose charging breaks fit into laning alot more frequently than one might think; if a jungler trips a ward you're likely to back off the wave for a bit, or particularly if you're totally pushed to tower wherein you wont be last hitting much or at all, and youll be free to toss out fairly consistent critical autos alongside volleys.
but even if a guaranteed critical auto attack is only something that is gonna happen at level 1 when everyone arrives in lane, its still lousy gameplay if theres no real way to play around it
im not arguing that her passive doesn't suck, just that this is not a reasonable change to make to it
Willahelm Fulber2 votesHonestly though my argument sits somewhere between agreeing with the mindset of an ashe player (don't want to waste crit on a last-hit) and the mindset that riot wants ashe players to have (wasting the free crit doesn't really matter). If the auto-crit charging breaks come often enough, then it shouldn't feel wasted. It's the player's choice to save or waste it.
darkdill3 votesI doubt that very much. Even when I initiate with Focus, my lane opponent out-trades me. Especially if it's someone like Vayne or MF.
Anarchomagus8 votesi don't see any way that vayne or mf can outrade ashe at level one. vayne's ideal combo is auto aa-Q-aa? thats 2.3 attacks worth of damage. ashe gets critaa-W, which is 3 autos of damage plus 40 from volley's base. mf gets aa-Q for 1.85 auto attacks plus 20 base on Q. maybe it resets the aa timer in which case it could potentially be 2.85 aa + 20? but thats still less than ashe. keep in mind that mf and vayne both have 50 less range than ashe so she could potentially prevent them from landing an auto attack before their spells. also consider that ashe's volley can hit multiple targets.
but thats all beside the point; ashe is supposed to trade a weak lane for high teamfighting utility. balance... right?
Phoneixflare2 votesyou are completely ruling out supports in this equation and I think that's a problem that you should address in your point. Rarely do adc's ever 1v1 at level 1. They are most likely always accompanied by a support that also offers damage and CC...which can affect the enemy adc's damage output. Lets also not forget about exhaust and heal being important in the equation as well.
Also, your second point...Ashe doesn't have a fantastic teamfighting utility...it's relatively weak considering her ult is very dodgeable and at blank range the stun isnt too powerful nor is the damage.
Anarchomagus1 votesi am explicitly ruling out supports because in our theoretical scenario of a 2v2 lane, the two supports have equal capabilities (because we're comparing ADCs here). the only way their presence can make a difference is if the opposing ADC is implicitly empowered by the presence of an ally (disregarding anything that ally actually does), and afaik there is as of yet no such ADC. effectively the supports 'cancel eachother out'.
i'm not sure how you can argue that ashe's utility is in any way sub-par; she has access to the longest CC in the game (at 3.5 seconds) at global range, and an incredibly reliable ranged perma-slow. her long range vision granting ability and huge aoe slow are gravy. the only comparable ADC is varus, who has even weaker self peel. ashe may not be mobile, but she can put a crystal arrow into your face at close range where the size of the hitbox makes it unlikely to miss, and her permaslow makes approaching difficult without strong gap closers.
Phoneixflare1 votesYou can't just rule out supports because this isnt a 1v1 game it's a 5v5 or 3v3 game so you should always take into account other players, their skill level mechanically and their understanding of the other player's skill level alongside effective collaboration between teammates. Supports do not cancel each other out because each have strengths and weaknesses with different adc's like that's such a huge portion of botlane and I don't see how you can rule that out for any reason. For example, leona/graves versus ashe/morg. Ashe walks up in your scenario to harass, leona walks up and flash stuns ashe, blocking an incoming volley and allowing graves to get into position to land a huge buckshot, forcing ashe to either flash or die if she continues this fight considering leona's exhaust is still up. This is assuming they aren't fighting at tower. At level 2, morgana will likely have black shield, meaning that Ashe can more safely harass with her focus shot, but that's still not guaranteed because leona's damage alongside sunlight in conjunction with grave's autos and abilities might pop the shield so it's not effective at stopping the cc, again, ashe has to flash. She doesn't have enough options when trading except right click and try to hit a volley. She has no chasing potential if an opponent is outside her attack range and volley range meaning she has to flash just to GET a kill pre-6. I mean there are so many weak aspects to Ashe even when paired with a great support like thresh and morg. I have never even lost lane to an Ashe. Ever.
You need to consider all factors when making statements like "ashe is guaranteed to have a trade go in her favor" because that ISNT true which is what I was saying.
Also compare Varus's ultimate to Ashe's: Ashe's hits one target(only one gets stunned at least) whereas Varus's can at least affect an entire team(I've seen it happen and seen it win games) also Varus's ultimate SCALES OFF OF AD. Also, the range where Ashe's ultimate reaches 3.5 seconds is rather huge and at that point she isnt actually in the fight thus she isnt really teamfighting so much as sending an arrow across the map to give assistance or get an assist on a kill...she's not really present in the fight at that range(unless idk she has teleport?)
Anarchomagus2 voteslook, i'm well aware that bot lane is 2v2. but there's no point in taking that to account because the supports you choose for each carry is totally arbitrary and are matchup altering in themselves. so if we try to make an example of a realistic bot lane and say that maybe ashe is supported by thresh and vayne is supported by morgana; and that matchup would quite likely swing in vayne's favor. but that tells us nothing about the relative power of ashe and vayne, because we're introducing another variable that is skewing results heavily. if we switch the supports so that now ashe is with morg and vayne is with thresh, then suddenly ashe is coming out on top!
but that's totally meaningless, because not only is every matchup different, but every team is different, and every player is different. but the key here is that any outside circumstance that can favor vayne could also favor ashe. "but what if the ashe player is teamed with bronzes, or what if she has a mordekaiser support, or what if she spontaneously bursts into flames at 5 minutes?" none of that actually matters, because any of those things are equally likely to happen to the vayne player.
there is a discussion to be had about how different AD carries synergize with different supports or deal with certain enemy supports, and it does pertain to whether ashe is balanced or not, but i'm not interested in even giving an opinion on that conversation. yes, ashe might be weak right now or she might not, but i have no idea and i dont intend to make any claims on that front. i simply offered an analysis of potential carry burst damage at level 1, 'on-paper'.
i'd also like to invite you to take a look at varus's wiki page here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Varus his ult has no AD scaling, and is very different from ashe's because ashe's ult has unlimited range. global anything is powerful, cc even more so. to dismiss that offhand as somehow not significant is just silly.
ThokPwnage1 votesgiving one thresh and the other morgana is meaningless because that changes the balance since they're not equal, but if they both have the same support... Ashe can't just aa volley and walk away if the enemy has leona; even if she has her own leona she wouldn't be able to win trades like that. It's not just leona either; any support with strong initiation would have the same effect, especially if they're tanky. 
also, there probably won't be any fights and definitely not any kills at lv1, so that's irrelevant. usually nothing happens until lv3, unless someone is a troll and just walks up to an enemy before minions spawn to give away first blood.
exec33 votesReminds me of Annie. When she has her stun up you can't go near her. Though to be fair Ashe doesn't actually have a choice between saving her passive for zoning or to CS because you can't exactly choose to not CS.
Phoneixflare1 votesFalse. When Ashe has full focus she has to make a decision: Get a last hit and continue to farm or risk dying in an engagement because I have no escape mechanism if things go sour in the fight. It'd be different if Ashe started the game with Infinity Edge equipped, then your point might make a bit more sense.
Anarchomagus1 votesi'm not really sure what it is you're arguing for here. ashe has no escape mechanism so she should... never try to harass her opponent with autto attacks? getting all-in'd isn't a problem unique to ashe, and ideally her support should be picked to have at least some peeling capacity.
at any rate, what you're referring to is a weakness of ashe that definitely wouldn't go away even if her passive became more reliable; if they can all-in you when you move to harass it doesn't matter whether you were csing before or not.
or maybe you're implying that ashe's passive is junk either way? in that case i agree completely
Phoneixflare1 votesWhat I am arguing is that it is indeed far too risky to 'hold' your focus charge instead of continuing to farm so that you can have items for late game. Considering the fact that Ashe is extremely IE dependent...if she just saves every focus charge for harassing she's going to undoubtedly miss out on a lot of farm. Or, if she does go up to harass, she will get blown up at no consequence because she has no escape mechanism to get out of a hard engage. and actually, most adc's have some form of escape or a huge amount of damage to compensate. Vayne= tumble/condemn, Trist=jump, Kog=aoe slow in a huge line which lasts for a long time and deals good damage, Corki=valk, Varus=aoe slow in circle alongside huge damage with arrow, cait=net, Ez=shift, draven=stand aside/bloodrush, lucian=pursuit, mf=slow and passive movespeed, twitch=invis and slow, jinx=chompers and incredible damage and ranged slow/poke, Quinn even has vault, Sivir=spell shield and damage, Ashe has a really weak slow dependant on her other ability that doesnt really do that much damage at all and cant hit through minions and is actually dodgeable in the range of the attack.
Anarchomagus1 votesi actually agree that her lack of reliable self-peel is making her look a little dated, and most likely explains why shes seeing far less play in an era of increasingly deadly supports. her ability to kite and make picks potentially overcomes this in late game, but unless she can survive lane it doesn't really matter.
again, i dont equate this to underpoweredness; shes just not really comfortable in the current meta. she's a low damage utility carry in a league of lane bully carries, and unless she sees a rework (she won't) or the meta shifts, shes never going to be (competitively) relevant. and thats actually okay
ps. lolking says that ashe is sitting at a comfy 50.2% win rate which means that despite her supposedly awful laning shes not doing too shabby overall
Phoneixflare1 votesShe is incredibly underpowered actually. In comparison to literally every other marksman I could name something that she can do that the others do way better. I see no reason to ever pick Ashe other than playing her Heartseeker skin because that skin looks awesome. She doesn't really scale that well because only one of her abilities actually scales off bonus ad. everything else doesnt scale with her main source of power(ATTACK DAMAGE.)
Riotboom bear8 votesI don't know about you, but I've never seen a purple caster minion I didn't want to punch in the face.
I guess I can settle for a crit though.
darkdill5 votesI'd rather crit that trolling Graves in the head. Both in-game and out of it.
Tapu Fini1 votesI feel like critting graves in the head would not end very well IRL.
Nazzadan3 votesI saw the thread in the red tracker thinking it would have meaningful game discussion about her passive. Thanks for letting me down with your le epic joke on this le epic reddit style board.
AliceInMadness1 votesCouldn't the passive just get replaced with something actually good? I mean, an ADC with a passive that rewards her for not attacking seems contradictory.
ShadowKnight12245 votesI couldn't agree more. At least Caitlyn's passive has a different value for when you hit a minion or a champion (and interacts with bushes), so it's a lot more dynamic than Ashe's.
Hoi Im Temmo3 votesWhy not just give her a new passive? Her passive sucks >:(
I would love to play ashe, if not for her MISERABLE passive.
The consensus I seem to see is that Ashe should mover her toggle to a flat passive and get some new ability for a q (perhaps a temporary crit steroid?)
Shrikesnest5 votesI agree that she needs a new passive, but having her Q be always "on" with no cost would be ludicrous. Ashe's passive is easily the weakest part of her kit, and she doesn't get much to make up for it.
Hoi Im Temmo1 votesYeah, but her mana management is horrible with the cost. Probably should be applied every few hits or something, with a slightly longer duration?
Shrikesnest2 votesYeah, that mana management thing is intentional, though. Ashe's Q is the best kiting skill in the game, and pound-for-pound probably the longest term slow overall if you count multiple hits. Ever tried running from a gank while Ashe is picking away at you? Perma-slows need costs associated with them or they become very toxic gameplay. This is why Frozen Mallet is so overcosted.
Hoi Im Temmo5 votesI get your point and agree, I suppose....but one thing:
DEFINITELY not the strongest slow in the game. :D
darkdill2 votesMy preference would be to revamp Frost Shot completely into a temporary steroid. Something like this:
Passive: Volley applies a 15/20/25/30/35% slow for 2 seconds.
Active: Ashe's basic attacks slow her targets by 30/35/40/45/50% for 2 seconds. Lasts 8 seconds. 15 second cooldown.
NuckaChucka3 votesIf you are a good Ashe you will get the passive built up to 98 and keep it there with auto attacking minions. Then when your support snares/ stuns you will walk up and get that last tick of passive for the crit + volley then back off.
HigeR2 votesWhat if... frostshot (Q) when toggled on, avoided proccing the crit from her passive? O.o it should still work with regular crits though, that way you could avoid wasting it through skill usage. Not critting with Q wouldn't really matter because if you manage to hit someone with one Q AA they'll be slowed and you'll be able to AA again shortly after or you could just volley... any crit from items should work normally while focus is on cd.
darkdill3 votesSo you'd want us to waste mana on minions?
HigeR1 votesyes... when you don't wanna waste your passive on minions what you do is last hit with volley as possible, the thing here is volley has a greater mana cost than one AA with frostshot on, what I'm proposing is a sink of that mana cost you have from not wanting to waste the passive crit.
Lord Graves III2 votesAshe passive helps new players last hit once in a while. That's why. Also the zoning issue YasuOMG brought up. It helps new players by giving a freebie last hit every so often and it limits skilled players by making it so they don't force the enemy to munch a guaranteed crit every so often.
Plasma XCX2 votesI agree, if she wants to trade, then she only has Volley and her basic attacks (usually not crit). Because she focuses on lasthitting most of the time, there isn't a lot of time for her to build her passive. :/ I personally think it is a poor passive. I usually only trigger it when I have to walk back to lane.
Remlap12232 votesCan we just agree on the fact that Ashe just needs a new passive? Seriously, worst one in the game. And I'm also comparing this to Fio's and Planky's so that's saying something.
CharQueen1 votesI actually like using her passive on minions. Easy 1 hit / last hit if needed. If it comes up during a team fight, yay! Most of the time, I don't even care about it.
darkdill1 votesWell, most of us don't like using it unintentionally on minions because it means your opponent can wail on you and you lose your only means of hoping to make an even trade.
CharQueen1 votesI'm rarely in a position where not having it screws me over. Keep your support near.
Also, who is this 'most of us'. Every Ashe I've seen and played with doesn't care at all about losing their passive to whatever it may be. Most of them rely on their W to poke. The passive is just a nice bonus for them.
Adalore1 votesI am okay with the current passive, it of course FORCES her to build IE and Statik. If you are ahead a rogue 600 range AUTO ATTACK will chunk people mid game, and it will be up 100% of the time during poke engagements. The value of that is fairly great.
Jingerbeardman1 votesyou kinda sound like a jerk for saying that though
exec31 votesI'm more partial to giving the player more control over it, mainly by having it charge with movement like Static Shiv. Would also be nice to have a better effect than just a guaranteed crit. Perhaps a scaling with level 25-50% bonus crit and/or applying a double strength decaying Q slow.
Pointy Rock1 votesOkay if that is an issue, then Caitlyn should no longer be able to headshot minions.
Ptarlorr1 votesI know I hate it when Quinn's passive triggers on a minion. Imagine Harrier being champion-specific lol
exiledFromBadmen1 votes"Please nerf 
she's OP as hell Riot pls"
lol
GG Beers1 votesThe second she would get IE in lane it would be GG.
