Boards›Gameplay

@Meddler : intent with the new Warlord Bloodlust on PBE

DeathBurst··5 votes·7,732 views

Hi,

There is currently a version of Warlord Bloodlust on the PBE that gives only Lifesteal. No more AS, no more Crit synergy. So what are the goal of this change?

More specific points:

  • Who are the intended users? Does removing Crit synergy mean that non-ADC are now supposed to go for this keystone?
  • What is the differentiation point between Fervor of Battle and Warlord? Both look good for extended fights, which fits well with the Red tree being the tree for DPS (vs the Purple tree for Burst) and they both apply to basic attack only. But why take one over the other, except just mathematically one is better than the other?

Side question: I always felt that one of the many reasons Thunderlord was crowding other options was because it was MUCH better in early game, even if it fell off in later stages of the game. So are Keystone intended to have "powerspike", so to speak? I'm not sure it's a good idea, because it restricts probably too much who can use what keystone. My guess is that no, they are not intended to have powerspike, hence the removal of the Crit synergy, that is not good in early game (before building Crit). Also, most other keystones scale with levels or are % amplifications, in order to stay relatively steady in power provided throughout the game.

35 Comments

RiotMeddler10 votes

The revised Warlord's is intended to be attractive to champions that repeatedly auto attack who are seeking sustain rather than damage (contrast with Fervor) and in a way that scales with offensive stats like crit, AS and Armor Pen, rather than defense (contrast with Grasp). We expect marksmen to be one of the primary groups Warlord's appeals to as a result, though probably not the only ones. Fervor should be particularly appealing if you've got a team offering a lot of peel or are intending to grab lifesteal elsewhere, Warlord's if you want some build path flexibility and have other strong damage sources on your team.

The strong crit synergy unfortunately felt like it restricted our ability to balance Warlord's for a range of champions more than it allowed cool interactions with specific kits.

We also feel that masteries can't be too spikey in terms of early versus late game performance. Some masteries slanting towards strength in particular parts of the game is fine. Masteries that just don't contribute anything early game by contrast would need to be ridiculously powerful late game, given how the early game feeds into mid/late game.

Best KhaZix Void1 votes

{quoted}

The revised Warlord's is intended to be attractive to champions that repeatedly auto attack who are seeking sustain rather than damage (contrast with Fervor) and in a way that scales with offensive stats like crit, AS and Armor Pen, rather than defense (contrast with Grasp). We expect marksmen to be one of the primary groups Warlord's appeals to as a result, though probably not the only ones. Fervor should be particularly appealing if you've got a team offering a lot of peel or are intending to grab lifesteal elsewhere, Warlord's if you want some build path flexibility and have other strong damage sources on your team.

The strong crit synergy unfortunately felt like it restricted our ability to balance Warlord's for a range of champions more than it allowed cool interactions with specific kits.

We also feel that masteries can't be too spikey in terms of early versus late game performance. Some masteries slanting towards strength in particular parts of the game is fine. Masteries that just don't contribute anything early game by contrast would need to be ridiculously powerful late game, given how the early game feeds into mid/late game.

Does Warlord's Bloodlust interact with monsters, or only minions?

Dominick Destine2 votes

Indirect nerf to YasuOP?

Hurray. Thank you Meddler.

Carnarius3 votes

{quoted}

We also feel that masteries can't be too spikey in terms of early versus late game performance. Some masteries slanting towards strength in particular parts of the game is fine. Masteries that just don't contribute anything early game by contrast would need to be ridiculously powerful late game, given how the early game feeds into mid/late game.

that fits perfectly to strenght of the ages, but it obviously can't be called "ridiculously powerful"

DeathBurst1 votes

And that's why nobody picks SotA in lane. Only time I ever use it is when I Jungle.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

What do you think the chances are of this item leading certain marksmen to opt for more raw damage (Infinity Edge, Armor Penetration) and forgo lifesteal items (BoRK, Bloodthirster) entirely?

Lifesteal Quints and Vampirism combined with the new Warlord's Bloodlust could easily be enough to replace a dedicated lifesteal item on most marksmen at the cost of 15% attack speed early-game.

Many marksmen could benefit from having space to purchase a full defensive item without having to sacrifice critical strike chance, attack speed, or armor penetration items.

Also, is it safe to assume that Warlord's Bloodlust will only heal you for damage dealt to enemy champions and minions? That is, it won't heal you based on damage dealt to wards, jungle monsters and/or champion pets.

RiotMeddler4 votes

I think it's reasonable to believe that some marksmen might forgo a lifesteal item and take Warlord's instead, though we might not see that initially (or might see it too often if the launch balance is overtuned).

The healing from Warlord's is going to be regular lifesteal but only against champions and minions. That will function against player summoned minions, but won't do anything against wards or jungle monsters.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

I think it's reasonable to believe that some marksmen might forgo a lifesteal item and take Warlord's instead, though we might not see that initially (or might see it too often if the launch balance is overtuned).

The healing from Warlord's is going to be regular lifesteal but only against champions and minions. That will function against player summoned minions, but won't do anything against wards or jungle monsters.

I have one issue with this. If this is supposed to promote build flexibility, where are the options for other classes? Mages can't opt out of mana/CDR or self-peel (their only defensive tool) and instead have to rely on items (2 for CDR, one or more for mana, though its sometimes included via regen, which is offered), and non-tank supports can't really take anything except windspeaker or thunderlord's, mostly because if you aren't a healer or a tank, there's no option other than thunderlords.

All this would serve to do, as far as your explanation provides, is make ADCs potentially more self-reliant (via itemization) than they already are, since they wouldn't need a lifesteal item. Instead of using alienated keystones, why don't you focus purely on what the intent is? If its self-healing, allow ALL champs to be able to make use of it, not just a certain class. You already have things in place to counter it, so it wouldn't be broken item 3165 item 3033

Is there a reason you don't try to encourage multi-role use of certain keystones, like the new warlord's providing something like wota/gunblade's sustain as you drop in health as opposed to just lifesteal?

Don't use Vlad as an excuse for this one because he's getting reworked and you KNOW this. You could easily give him compensation nerfs if he became too powerful and it wouldn't matter in the long run because there's an incoming rework.

AtaxiChaos2 votes

Are there any plans to make changes to other keystones to be more relevant to junglers while they're actually in the jungle? Right now the only ones they directly benefit from through the whole game are in Resolve (Bond of Stone and Strength of Ages). Preventing Warlord's from working on jungle monsters just out of fear of it becoming the dominant jungle keystone really seems like a cop out. Shouldn't every tree have something relevant for junglers?

(Some quick ideas that come to mind would be allowing Fervor and/or Deathfire to work on monsters (maybe have Fervor stack separately from the champion stacks or reduce Deathfire's damage when used on monsters to prevent potential abuse?) and adding "or killing a jungle monster" to Stormraider's.)

DeathBurst1 votes

I support this.

Surr20plz1 votes

{quoted}

I think it's reasonable to believe that some marksmen might forgo a lifesteal item and take Warlord's instead, though we might not see that initially (or might see it too often if the launch balance is overtuned).

The healing from Warlord's is going to be regular lifesteal but only against champions and minions. That will function against player summoned minions, but won't do anything against wards or jungle monsters.

wow

Old Man Teeto1 votes

Was the choice to not allow the lifesteal against jungle mobs made purely to keep it from being attractive to junglers?

NVDax1 votes

{quoted}

I think it's reasonable to believe that some marksmen might forgo a lifesteal item and take Warlord's instead, though we might not see that initially (or might see it too often if the launch balance is overtuned).

The healing from Warlord's is going to be regular lifesteal but only against champions and minions. That will function against player summoned minions, but won't do anything against wards or jungle monsters.

I personally believe that Olaf is going to be amazing with this keystone, only theory crafting, but I can't wait to try it out!

Linna Excel1 votes

Why don't you want junglers, including the odd ADC jungler, taking Warlords?

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

The healing from Warlord's is going to be regular lifesteal but only against champions and minions. That will function against player summoned minions, but won't do anything against wards or jungle monsters.

I feel like I should ask why?

I know there a some reasons to only target champions. But right now for Junglers, it feels like there's only one real Keystone that helps junglers, in the defense tree.

Onerios1 votes

While it is possible I doubt that it will pan out in practice because of the other stats that the lifesteal items have. MS has the QSS active which can't be bought elsewhere, BT replacements sacrifice either quite a bit of ad or survivability, blade has its niche as % health damage for adcs, and Deaths Dance's healing off of physical spells is also unique. Your more likely to just end up having a greater total quantity of lifesteal in your build rather then forgo a lifesteal item altogether.

Mansana2 votes

Question: Currently what does Warlord's proc from? Besides the obvious auto attacks that crit, does Warlord's lifesteal proc off anything else that crits e.g. Jhin 4th Bullet of Curtain Call, MF Ulti, Static Shiv/ Rapid Fire Cannon Magic DMG Crit, etc.

Edit: I know it's getting changed but was just wondering for testing purposes.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

The revised Warlord's is intended to be attractive to champions that repeatedly auto attack who are seeking sustain rather than damage (contrast with Fervor) and in a way that scales with offensive stats like crit, AS and Armor Pen, rather than defense (contrast with Grasp). We expect marksmen to be one of the primary groups Warlord's appeals to as a result, though probably not the only ones. Fervor should be particularly appealing if you've got a team offering a lot of peel or are intending to grab lifesteal elsewhere, Warlord's if you want some build path flexibility and have other strong damage sources on your team.

The strong crit synergy unfortunately felt like it restricted our ability to balance Warlord's for a range of champions more than it allowed cool interactions with specific kits.

We also feel that masteries can't be too spikey in terms of early versus late game performance. Some masteries slanting towards strength in particular parts of the game is fine. Masteries that just don't contribute anything early game by contrast would need to be ridiculously powerful late game, given how the early game feeds into mid/late game.

How about Strength of Ages then? It contributes literally nothing at the beginning of the game, and though it does give you consistent slot less health, it's less value than an Elixir of Iron. That's not "ridiculously powerful".

warpenguin5551 votes

{quoted}

The revised Warlord's is intended to be attractive to champions that repeatedly auto attack who are seeking sustain rather than damage (contrast with Fervor) and in a way that scales with offensive stats like crit, AS and Armor Pen, rather than defense (contrast with Grasp). We expect marksmen to be one of the primary groups Warlord's appeals to as a result, though probably not the only ones. Fervor should be particularly appealing if you've got a team offering a lot of peel or are intending to grab lifesteal elsewhere, Warlord's if you want some build path flexibility and have other strong damage sources on your team.

The strong crit synergy unfortunately felt like it restricted our ability to balance Warlord's for a range of champions more than it allowed cool interactions with specific kits.

We also feel that masteries can't be too spikey in terms of early versus late game performance. Some masteries slanting towards strength in particular parts of the game is fine. Masteries that just don't contribute anything early game by contrast would need to be ridiculously powerful late game, given how the early game feeds into mid/late game.

report early game for feeding

Surr20plz2 votes

This better work on jungle monsters too.

I don't like it in general, but don't F junglers anymore pls.

DeathBurst2 votes

They said on Reddit it doesn't, because if it did, all Junglers would be forced to take this keystone.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

They said on Reddit it doesn't, because if it did, all Junglers would be forced to take this keystone.

No they wouldn't lol. New picks would come up that were completely reliant on it though.

The current junglers don't have anything like it atm and they function just fine. Why would they be forced to take it? It would only serve to limit their tankiness (300 HP) or damage (Fervor/Thunderlord's) by taking it.

DeathBurst2 votes

Well, I don't know, I'm just reporting what they already said elsewhere...

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

No they wouldn't lol. New picks would come up that were completely reliant on it though.

The current junglers don't have anything like it atm and they function just fine. Why would they be forced to take it? It would only serve to limit their tankiness (300 HP) or damage (Fervor/Thunderlord's) by taking it.

Not really. In the past when they made something efficient in the jungle it became the only efficient choice even if there were perfectly acceptable alternatives.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

This better work on jungle monsters too.

I don't like it in general, but don't F junglers anymore pls.

They've stated that if it worked on jungle monsters it would become THE jungle keystone.

That means jungle monster damage, recovery from Machete and Talisman, and jungler base stats would all be tuned around Warlords, so if you didn't take it (like if you were a tank or if you wanted Thunderlords) you world be screwed.

Critkeeper1 votes

[deleted]

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

am pretty sure lifesteal doesn't proc off on hit damage. idk unless frevor is an exception.

DeathBurst1 votes

It procs from most physical on-hits. Not all, though. Best thing to do is check the wikia on a case by case basis.

Critkeeper1 votes

it procs on any on hit physical damage.

botrk, fervor of battle,

even initial damage of talon q.

DeathBurst1 votes

Most importantly, number tuning is irrelevant. If Warlord gave 200% Lifesteal instead of 20, you would say the opposite, that Warlord is better. But that says nothing about goals and intentions with the change.

On a side note, your reasoning is off. 20% more damage means 20% improved lifesteal, so if you are at ~25% Lifesteal, it's ~+5% flat Lifesteal. Much less than what you can actually get from this mastery.

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

Most importantly, number tuning is irrelevant. If Warlord gave 200% Lifesteal instead of 20, you would say the opposite, that Warlord is better. But that says nothing about goals and intentions with the change.

On a side note, your reasoning is off. 20% more damage means 20% improved lifesteal, so if you are at ~25% Lifesteal, it's ~+5% flat Lifesteal. Much less than what you can actually get from this mastery.

hm, you are right

must of been a brainfart.

post deleted.

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

Oh for fuck's sake, Riot finally gives a decent buff to Xin Zhao (who was consecutively nerfed fourteen times before), only to immediately nerf him to the ground in the next patch by gutting his heal and attack speed by 50%!!! What the actual fuck?! - 20% attack speed from his W and - 30% attack speed from the useless new Warlord's Bloodlust. Seriously, do they not know that to get to 20% lifesteal from this new Warlord's Bloodlust, you have to be at 80% missing health? At that heath level, literally one basic attack from anyone with a Duskblade of Draktharr will kill you. Not to mention all the damn Execute abilities in the game that would delete you off the face of the map. What the actual fuck, Riot?

DeathBurst3 votes

hum, and how is that relevant to my post, exactly?

Surr20plz1 votes

Why would ADC's want an ability that scales with missing hp? They won't be alive long enough to use it.

Kingsgrave1 votes

Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by DeathBurst

Etiquette of smurfing
Player Behavior147 comments
98
votes
Next Champion is a blacksmith. I called it first :p
Story, Art, & Sound105 comments
71
votes
@Meddler: We need to talk about Resolve Masteries BEFORE the end of Preseason.
Gameplay33 comments
60
votes
@Riot: Maybe I'm missing something, but Banner of Command and ZZ'rot really feel redundant...
Gameplay58 comments
25
votes
About Gameplay+ and the value of brevity
Discuss the Boards19 comments
23
votes
PSA: Don't ban under-powered champs that **may** snowball once in a while
Gameplay60 comments
10
votes