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Hey Jungler! Episode 1: Why you no gank for me?

Occams Raiser··2 votes·818 views

Just a little series if I may, by your humbly O.R. As I think of questions I will post them here. As I do not jungle but love team play, I find junglers to be the oddest bunch. You play the hardest role in my opinion where strategy is concerned yet you want to be left to your own devices. If you question a jungler they always seem to take the wrong way, so I will ask my questions here and have any jungler chime in and clarify it for all of us.

I often have a lot of questions for junglers. It is hard to know what they are thinking. Some (many) seem to have no rhythm or reason to their actions that I can see. I am bronze so the junglers are also bronze or so. I have noticed that when you ask for a gank at the very beginning of the game You will not get one. This could be played for reverse psychology if you are ever playing a lane that you are afraid to be assisted on.

Suppose I am playing a character that is a fair to weak match top or mid lane. I ask at the start to get a gank. By the time You finish your first run through the jungle you are between bot mid or top mid. If you see my match up but ganking for me doesn't seem feasible at the time, why stay silent when you hit level 3?

If make the early request I might be new to the lane, the role, the character, or the match up. I might be competent at another part of the list so you never know. There are lot of things to think about but I never get a sense that the jungler wants to lock in to any particular strategy even if everything is going his way.

I know you have to consider health before you gank but could you swing on through to keep the enemy honest even if you don't want an all in? Please don't say you don't gank for certain champs. I have never seen the champ that wouldn't do better with a kill or assist under his belt.

So when I ask? Why you no gank? Neva eva?

29 Comments

PapaGreg212 votes

[deleted]

Occams Raiser1 votes

Yeah, people say this but this is because people tell you not to expect anyone else to be competent but you. That is a byproduct of cynicism and experience with failure. It isn't the actual way the game should be played under optimal conditions where are things are equal. Saying this just means you should expect your jungler to suck. It isn't as much of answer as you might think.

PapaGreg212 votes

[deleted]

Occams Raiser1 votes

It seems that if you ask for a gank at the beginning of the game and a give a rational for your thought, they would answer with yes or why they wont be ganking as you requested.

Angry Monster1 votes

Great you asked does not mean feasible. Conditions must be right plus other things are happening that are not in your lane.

All to many times I have seen a request for a early gank and then they push hard or die level 3. Lanners need to set up a for a early gank, gOod ones do not magically happen.

Occams Raiser1 votes

I ask the question from the standpoint of someone who knows not to push lane and be ready with the cc. I don't die before 6 usually. In normals I have only fed to a Fizz and a Riven when I was Irelia. We still won the Fizz game. He continued to farm top as I TP for kills and assists. By the end he was the only one "fed" on his team.

LongHair Fox2 votes

Many junglers often take criticism very poorly due to the fact that at lower levels they are the scapegoats of the solo laners (and bottom lane if they are premade). As a jungler I often take a lot of things into account when ganking and especially in this tank meta there are many things that laners refuse understand. Let's take each lane and some possible reasons why I will not gank it:

Top: We currently have a tank meta so if I am playing a tank in the jungle, and you are loosing as a tank vs another tank then even if I gank your lane opponent can probably just walk away due to our lack of damage. The same goes for any lane where they want me to finish a 300 health carry after they died while I play a tank like nautilus. This becomes especially true if the opponent has an offensive jungler like lee or reksai in which case they might show up and kill us both. Mid: Mid lane is a lot more gankable as of late with immobile mages. The enemy jungler however is almost always also near the lane so if we need 2 or 3 rotations of spells to kill the enemy then I expect the enemy jungler to show up and I might even get bursted myself since the tank junlge item gives less hp now. For mobile midlaners like lb and fizz then I need you to start the engage and bait out mobility. There is simply no way I can catch them if they have 2 dashes in a short lane. Bot: This lane is the most giving lane gank and win. You get dragon control, more kills, and a fed champion that is made to carry. It is however also immensely warded and there are often high mobility champions on the adc role with a disengage support making it very hard to gank. This is especially true if my own botlane has no engage and since I only turn a 2v2 into a 3v2 (instead of 1v1 into 2v1) it is also the lane that has the easiest time winning a gank by itself.

Hope this helps.

Occams Raiser1 votes

It does help. lots of information for us all to reflect on.

AyRe CoNteMpT2 votes

well, you are bronze, so the most reliable answer to your question is: they just dont know what they are doing or what they should be doing. the same goes for you, so ofcourse no one understands eachother. its bronze, deal with it.

from my own perspective as a diamond jungler (not d5) it looks a little bit different tho. depending on which champion i am playing, i have different windows of power where i can gank, depending on my summoners, my cooldowns, my level, my health/mana etc. keep that in mind during the entire explanation. i am limited too.

so, now we are in champ select and im not lastpick but say one of the first two or three picks. i can look for synergies but mostly there isnt much yet, so i just pick my safest, strongest jungler. this jungler has synergy with some champions but not with others, so there are a few lanes that i like to gank and a few that i dont like.

example: i am volibear and my midlaner is vladimir vs ahri. ahri is hard to impossible to reach due to her speedup via Q and her charm to the face which i cant dodge while still being able to close the gap. i wont even start with her ult. now, vladimir has no cc, no mobility, no burst, low range and very low early damage. if he calls for an early gank, i will very unlikely gank him and i will very likely report him for a champion which he cant play and just picked because he saw it in LCS yesterday. also, once he starts feeding (WHICH I CANT HELP SIMPLY DUE TO CHAMPION PICKS), its getting more and more unlikely for me to gank him. not because i wouldnt love to, but because i CANT. even if i have a champion who can do that better like reksai, lee sin, vi, i will still risk wasting my time or worse - dying to a countergank since this vladimir asked for an early gank so i can assume hes a noob who doesnt know shit about his champion. then i will continue to watch him play while i clear my first camps to see if he is good for something.

if i see he doesnt prepare his lane for a gank properly and just pushes while getting poked, chances are, i wont gank him even with a champ that could potentially get an early kill on ahri. why not? because it will cost me alot of resources, time and pressure while the risk of failure is high and the potential reward is low, even if i get a kill, i still had to burn all my cooldowns and lose alot of resources and he will STILL not be able to do anything to ahri.

if he was a good player and a good vladimir especially, he would know that his champions only purpose is to survive, not to snowball, and he wouldnt ask me to waste my time with him but instead be usefull somewhere else.

at the same time, i couldve ganked the enemy pantheon/maokai who is vs my darius, irelia or riven toplane. there i have a champion with no escapes, who relies highly on scaling with items, against a champion with gapclosers, cc and high, bursty damage that can snowball big time and outscale him with an advantage, a fight that we can even easily win 2on2 against a countergank and with the chance of not even needing to burn all my resources, thus being able to capitalize easier on a potential kill.

if you pick a champion that you cant play or "have weak matchups with", dont call for ganks. also, dont play that champion anymore. play good champions who can be laned against everything without feeding. play a champ that can freeze the lane aswell as push it aswell as LEAVE THE LANE to help your jungler invading/dueling. pick a good champ, not vladimir.

Occams Raiser1 votes

What about if you had an average Irelia player top? Does she get a gank or do you assume she has it cause of the champ? Assume that your opponent is a typical top laner with sustain that farm forever but has mobility. I play irelia. I don't player her ranked yet. I in my matches Even when I don't get the first kill U feel pretty confident when I get some assistance. I play support in ranked most of the time.

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

like, no matter how much you suck with a champ, if you understand how to LANE, you can always prepare your lane in a way that your jungler can gank. this means, letting your opponent push even if it loses you some cs. it means, not getting pushed in by a huge wave but trimming it off a bit so i can gank you without running into 20 minions. you will also not TRADE with him UNLESS he cant take 50% off your maximum hp. because when you trade with him and he takes 50% off your hp, you will most likely die when i come to gank and you run into him. when you can trade with him, andyou lose 30% of your hp and he loses 20%, thats GOOD to get ganked, its BAD for laning tho.

so if i see that you actually are mentally able to prepare your own lane for a gank and you play a champion with cc (irelia) and some damage and also who BENEFITS from getting ganks, i will very likely gank you. tho if you cant even prepare your lane and you are 0/2 once i took my first two buffs, i will very likely never even so much as look at your lane ever again.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Would you take part in this?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/summoners-rift/XE2Wka3f-a-master-class-mode-to-bring-the-divisions-together-learn-from-the-best-and-your-friends

Angry Monster2 votes

Top lane is the most infective lane to hank. It can eat the most time and may not even provide an advantage. When someone says they are weak in a role it makes me wonder are they able to use my gank.

Mid and bot lane banks will allow for Dragon control, so I personally try to focus them. Also about Dragon control, if I see or hear that top is being camped I think 2 things. One our planner is doing something wrong, two I can safely Gank other lanes and or taken Dragon.

Occams Raiser1 votes

I am a modest player. Others might be to. I never know how things are going to go but I always assume my opponent is equal to me or better. i would think getting his flash or making him back off of farm would be worth a walk through. Not every gank need be an all in I would think. I rarely see someone pass through on the way to an objective. When someone does make their presence felt the opp gets embolden.

Angry Monster1 votes

Yeah a flash burned for you is great. But sometimes getting that flashed burned is a 90 sec investment. I can clear 2/3s of the jungle in that time. Also like u said as jungler I have no clue the quality of my team mates. I have to play the objectives and try to roll it forward.

Champ types also mater. If you are behind and your champ has no cc, what am I supposed to do? Jungles are going to be lower levels than the solo planner. If I clear as I go up to save your lane I will be low health. If I do not clear I am losing gold.

Jungling is all about choices. They are never easy

Occams Raiser1 votes

I understand.

IcyPepper2 votes

In normals, I main jungle/support (to train map awareness) and in ranked I main adc (to play the squishiest role with said map awareness).

As a jungler, I have to make a risk/reward assessment, and evaluate my laners. A common habit I see on my teams is that people push way too hard in the first few levels. Even if I'm a tank, I can't tower dive at level 3. Please understand that if I get stunned or knocked up under tower, that's first blood.

One important thing to note is what people do when behind. If a lane is losing, I want to reset it of course, but it's what the laner does when they're not winning that's important. If they play safe, farm under tower, and ward when it's safe to avoid feeding their lane opponent, you bet I'm going to gank their lane. That's responsible. If they go 0/5 in the first three minutes of the game and blame me, I have two other lanes and dragon to control, and it might be worth my time to get those (you stop being worth as much gold after awhile, so better not give the laner fresh meat to kill). It's a bit cold, but if someone has no idea how to play safe, it might be a better idea to snowball other lanes.

Snowballing lanes is another matter, and a bit obvious so I'll skip that part.

On our first ganks, we junglers pay attention to how laners react. Especially for bot and mid, this also determines how tightly we hold onto our buffs. This happened to me: mid pinged for help, I immediately headed to their lane, and they did not help the gank at all (they just sat under tower afk for some reason). He tried to get the next blue, but I smited that and told him he had to earn it on my next gank. He wisened up, got a kill during a gank, and I gladly gave him blue buff.

Bot lane is a great example. If you ping for help, but retreat due to some excuse (having 10 hp less than your lane opponent isn't a huge issue if your jungler is cc heavy, but understandable if one hit could kill you), it makes us wary of helping you. If you're too reckless as well, we might not gank your lane just to keep you from dying.

Then it comes to lane priorities. Bot is the best lane to gank first, before the supports get sightstone. It's also the best to snowball for dragon control, but snowballing mid is a great way to win the most important lane towers early, as well as getting mid to help control bot lane. And a fed Katarina is typically a forfeit at 20 anyway, so that's an incentive. Top, I usually gank if they're necessary for teamfights, their laning opponent is a snowballer, or we need top towers for global gold. I don't expect top to win or lose their lane, I want them to hold down the line until I can do what I can to power everyone up.

Sometimes, when a lane is struggling and I can't gank in risk of dying, I don't just abandon them like some junglers. Occasionally, I buy wards for a laner who can't afford a lot and drop them deep where they'd get ambushed if they tried warding. It really helps them not die, and if they play safe and cs a lot while their laning opponent roams (and fails due to my wards, bonus), they have an easier time catching up and possibly getting ganks.

Occams Raiser1 votes

This all makes sense.

disregardable1 votes

This could be played for reverse psychology if you are ever playing a lane that you are afraid to be assisted on

These lanes are the only ones I ever get ganks for. Yeah Nocturne, please gank Nasus when you're only 1/3rd health. It's not like I'm Quinn with BorK or anything. Oh, hey all damage Lee Sin, thanks for coming brah, but I'm kind of 6/0 against this Yasuo, I really don't need your help. Sejuani, you're level 5, I get that you want to help bot, but maybe walking into Thresh/Vayne with no ult is a bad idea though.

Occams Raiser1 votes

This is just poor decision making. I am talking about actively deciding who to gank for from the beginning of the game.

warpenguin5551 votes

When the enemy is either fed or is constantly under tower. Or if I or the lane in question is low and/or oom

Occams Raiser1 votes

My question was in the context that no one is even level 6.

Occams Raiser1 votes

If a master class mode existed would you higher level players assist low level junglers? This was an idea I had.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/summoners-rift/XE2Wka3f-a-master-class-mode-to-bring-the-divisions-together-learn-from-the-best-and-your-friends

Borfin1 votes

Because you've crammed yourself up the enemy turret's asshole at level 2.

Wtf do you want me to do, dive it?

Occams Raiser1 votes

That seems like a typical response. I have never seen a jungle say "Freeze lane so I can gank." I wonder if many even know what freeze lanes means. But the community is so toxic people dare not ask openly in game.

Bemapon1 votes

Im sure you know that certain champions cant really gank pre 6 Warwick . And sometimes if a lane is losing hard, a gank could just turn into a double/triple kill for the enemy. You understand the health point, but theres also positioning. If you are pushed up, I cant gank effectively. Also surprisingly enough a lot of people dont understand that if I am ganking a different lane I cannot gank your lane at the same time.

A lot of junglers seem to dislike ganking top, I love ganking top. It seems the easiest for me, and even if the toplaner cant do much with a kill/assist I sure can. If I can start snowballing from top, I can use that to help snowball other lanes.

That being said there are a lot of junglers that do not offer too much in a gank and are better off farming the jungle. I tend to play the more gank happy ones so my input is a little bias. ** If you ask for a gank and I dont gank, it is probably because**

  1. One or both of us is low on hp.
  2. You are pushed up too far too much.
  3. You are dead too often. If every time I go to gank you die before I get there, not much I can do.
  4. Other lanes are suffering worse than you.
  5. Dragon.
Occams Raiser1 votes
  1. Other lanes are suffering worse than you.

This is what I am talking about. Question: Is it not strategically more sound for the jungler and the lane that isn't failing to continue to build for a possible carry rather than attempt to reset one of either failed lanes? I don't use the word suffer for just one kill down. Suffer sounds like fail and a loss of first turret.

I am aware that some champs can't gank pre 6.

No one ever mentions summoner spells or who the opposing laner is as a factor. I sure it is but is never on anyone's top five list. In the rare times Kat isn't banned it seems like she should be focused.

insaiyanbacca1 votes

i dont have a lot of time to give a detailed reply or read a bunch of it, but as for that 3rd paragraph the one where you talk about a hard matchup, the thing about that is that there are only a handful of junglers who can gank after their first clear, whether that be for having weaker sustain or being extremely ult reliant(Fiddlesticks Warwick ). hope this helps a little

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