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Ideas for zed changes

Buttigieg 2020··3 votes·538 views

I beg you riot, don't "olaf" zed. He is easily one of the most enjoyable champions. I understand he is pretty strong right now but their are easy fixes.

Idea for change: increase e cool down by 1.5 seconds. This means that you cannot use your e twice when you cast your shadow, this lowers his wave clear by a little bit and gets rid of the cheese where you poke them with e twice.

Second idea for change: lower the range on his q by 150. This means you can no longer shadow q snipe from halfway across the map. This also makes it harder for zed to hit both shurikans on the same target, to compensate they should increase the base damage on shurikans by 15 or 20 at all ranks.

3rd idea: increase energy cost on q from 75/70/65/60/55 to 100/90/80/70/60. This means you are punished for spamming q too often in the early game.

4th idea: reduce death mark bonus damage from 20/35/50 to 10/35/60. This punishes his early game very hard but rewards you for surviving until mid-late game.

Incase you guys didn't undersand, I am saying implement One or two of these changes, not all of them. If you have any concerns or ideas of your own please post them in the comments section, I will do my best to reply to them.

19 Comments

Azirion Sol1 votes

Nice ideas all around, besides that 100 energy Q (like really?)

Buttigieg 20201 votes

Yeah, mabey 100 energy is too harsh. Perhaps 90 or 85?

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

meanwhile Shen says hi. 100 energy on his e that never lowers. Kennen level 1 e is 100 energy and scales worse than this zed proposal 100/90/80/70/60 vs 100/95/90/85/80. this would just bring his resource management in line with some of the other energy users.

Azirion Sol1 votes

{quoted}

meanwhile Shen says hi. 100 energy on his e that never lowers. Kennen level 1 e is 100 energy and scales worse than this zed proposal 100/90/80/70/60 vs 100/95/90/85/80. this would just bring his resource management in line with some of the other energy users.

Zed's Q doesn't hold the potential to stun/taunt a whole team though Besides, Shen gains 40 energy back for every champion taunted, and Kennen gains 40 energy on his first target hit, champion or not

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

  1. shens dash range doesn't allow him to taunt the entire team, if you are all grouped up that well then something is already wrong. also shen's 100 energy ability never gets cheaper so he has to worry about energy the entire game, instead of just during the laning phase.

  2. zed has energy restoring abilities too you know. if he had meaningful energy costs he would have to actually manage his abilities to ensure energy refunds, something that he is not currently gated by.

Azirion Sol1 votes

{quoted}

  1. shens dash range doesn't allow him to taunt the entire team, if you are all grouped up that well then something is already wrong. also shen's 100 energy ability never gets cheaper so he has to worry about energy the entire game, instead of just during the laning phase.

  2. zed has energy restoring abilities too you know. if he had meaningful energy costs he would have to actually manage his abilities to ensure energy refunds, something that he is not currently gated by.

  1. The point is, if you use Shen's taunt as it was meant to be (as an engage rather than an escape) and be successful with it, it costs at least less than 60 already

  2. I know he does, and he still runs out of energy after a single rotation. Yes, even late-game. After a rotation and a second E, he's done, unless he hit the same target twice with the same ability. For someone claiming that he is not gated by energy, you seem to never have played Zed yourself

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

right, but it still net costs shen energy. if you use zed's W properly it means his energy goes UP! that means he is not energy gated at all because he can refund more than he spends.

look Zedtastic, you're a zed main and you don't want him nerfed - i get that - but the fact that he is a top ban means that people don't like playing against him. something has to be done. deal with it.

Azirion Sol1 votes

Here's some math, assuming Zed is level 18 and hits at least one ability twice:

Q cost is 55, W is 20, E is 50. 40 energy can only be restored once per W cast He can cast 2 Qs, 1 W and 2 Es in approximately 10-12ish seconds, 4-5ish seconds if we don't wait for a second Q, so I'm being hard on him here

So, 2 Qs, 1 W and 2 Es, with at least one of them hitting the **same **target twice, would net him 190 energy used, after accounting for the 40 energy restored, 135 without the second Q

After that, he has no energy at all for the next 8-10ish seconds. Means no escapes, no abilities, only AAs. Oh! And his passive only works once per target every 10ish seconds

So, he has enough for a single target, single (and a half) rotation, basically doing his job, just like every other assassin, except he does it over the lapse of 3 or so seconds, instead of less than 1

Besides, being a Zed main shouldn't matter when I'm stating facts

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

After that, he has no energy at all for the next 8-10ish seconds.

after 6 seconds he has 3/4 of his energy back, and by then his q and e are back off cd, meaning he is gated by cooldowns not energy.

only AAs

oh no now how is he supposed to use all that AD he builds! oh wait. see mages AA are worthless while zed's AA hurt like hell. part of the problem with zed is he gets both burst damage and sustained damage, while almost everyone else in the game gets one or the other.

Besides, being a Zed main shouldn't matter when I'm stating facts

being a zed main means you're biased. it matters because you are ignoring what he is actually gated by, try to downplay his strengths as weakness, all to say "don't nerf my main".

Azirion Sol1 votes

I've actually posted my ideas on this section. Feel free to share your thoughts about them here

Sustained melee damage. Y'all kind of keep this out of your arguments. Every non-support melee champions have strong AAs, if built for it. 60 energy out of 200 is 75% now? Dude, learn math

Besides, if the fight keeps going for over 15 seconds (by the time he gets a third Q in), I don't see why he should be on cooldowns/energyless all this time. Every mage and their mother would have spammed their abilities for much more than that, from a range and with CC included

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Sustained melee damage.

it doesn't hurt any less.

Dude, learn math

ok i said after 6 seconds, i meant after 14 which is the cd on his shadow, my bad.

you want math - lets do math. lets look at his energy usage.

Energy can only be restored once per mimicked cast, not once per shadow cast, once per mimicked cast. he can get 40 energy back for his q and then get 40 energy back from his e since they are unique mimicked casts even from the same shadow.

one rotation costs Q 55, W 20, E 50, 40 restored E 40 restored Q. so his total cost was a whopping 45 energy if he hit his abilities. 6 seconds later his e and q come back off cd he is back at full energy and expends another Q 55 and E 50 costing him 105. then 8 seconds later he repeats this process.

if he continues this pattern of WEQ, 6 seconds EQ, 8 seconds WEQ etc... and hits his abilities his energy will go

start 200, weq 155 , regen to full 200 at 6 seconds eq 95, regen to 175 at 14 seconds weq 130, regen to 190 eq 85, at 20 seconds regen to 165 weq 120, ...

if you are hitting your abilities you are not gated by energy until 146 seconds. that's over two minutes of spamming your abilities without going ooe.

Besides, if the fight keeps going for over 15 seconds (by the time he gets a third Q in), I don't see why he should be on cooldowns/energyless all this time.

because he is an energy user, that is supposed to be the downside to being an energy champion. other energy champions can't spam their abilities on cd like zed can.

"but you're using his escape to harass" then ward so you can see them coming, stay near tower, and/or harass from range. you still have flash.

"but he's melee" if you are dropping your shadow on the enemy you can shift right to them, the combined range of his wq is 1450, which outranges everything Xerath has, and he is known for his range.

Azirion Sol1 votes

{quoted}

it doesn't hurt any less.

It's still melee, meaning he is in CC range

ok i said after 6 seconds, i meant after 14 which is the cd on his shadow, my bad.

you want math - lets do math. lets look at his energy usage.

Energy can only be restored once per mimicked cast, not once per shadow cast, once per mimicked cast. he can get 40 energy back for his q and then get 40 energy back from his e since they are unique mimicked casts even from the same shadow.

I know that, but since most people here whine about him being able to Deathmark squishies from "2 screens away", I assumed it meant a Flash and his W were used before-hand, or that the target was competent enough to Blink/Dash/Flash right after he comes out of Deathmark (if Zed was able to walk up to Deathmark range) Therefore, no way to apply double Es

In a realistic situation, you're not going to walk up to Deathmark range without going through tanks/supports, so we assume a Flash, at the very least, and a W, at most

one rotation costs Q 55, W 20, E 50, 40 restored E 40 restored Q. so his total cost was a whopping 45 energy if he hit his abilities. 6 seconds later his e and q come back off cd he is back at full energy and expends another Q 55 and E 50 costing him 105. then 8 seconds later he repeats this process.

if he continues this pattern of WEQ, 6 seconds EQ, 8 seconds WEQ etc... and hits his abilities his energy will go

start 200, weq 155 , regen to full 200 at 6 seconds eq 95, regen to 175 at 14 seconds weq 130, regen to 190 eq 85, at 20 seconds regen to 165 weq 120, ...

if you are hitting your abilities you are not gated by energy until 146 seconds. that's over two minutes of spamming your abilities without going ooe.

because he is an energy user, that is supposed to be the downside to being an energy champion. other energy champions can't spam their abilities on cd like zed can.

I believe this is assuming targets are disconnected? Because in a chasing situation, there's no way in hell you'll be hitting double Qs (unless your target moves in a straight line for some obscure reason), let alone double Es If it's in the mess of a teamfight, then he needs to get in range of CC to be able to double E

"but you're using his escape to harass" then ward so you can see them coming, stay near tower, and/or harass from range. you still have flash.

Valid for every champion with escapes, so pointless argument

"but he's melee" if you are dropping your shadow on the enemy you can shift right to them, the combined range of his wq is 1450, which outranges everything Xerath has, and he is known for his range.

WQ poke is not CD efficient, so take advantage of it. Wait for his shadow to vanish, then poke him back W range is also 550. Assuming most mages abilities are 700+ in range, I think it's a fair trade for an 18 seconds ability

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

cc is a counter to every champion, you don't get to claim that this is a "zed" weakness. he needs a weakness compared to other champs, just like he has strengths compared to other champs.

I believe this is assuming targets are disconnected?

or you know, laning where they are present and available to be hit. unless they aren't anywhere near the minion wave then you've already won.

Valid for every champion with escapes, so pointless argument

not pointless, it's valid for zed as well. the fact that other champions have no escapes means that zed has one more tool than them and means he is that much stronger.

WQ poke is not CD efficient, ...

right but saying he's melee is just ignoring the potential range of his poke.

Azirion Sol1 votes

{quoted}

cc is a counter to every champion, you don't get to claim that this is a "zed" weakness. he needs a weakness compared to other champs, just like he has strengths compared to other champs.

There's a difference between having the risk to get CCd from range and getting instantly CCd because you were in melee range, right next to a support/tank But, yeah, it's a counter to everyone, as you said (no sarcasm, I'm serious)

or you know, laning where they are present and available to be hit. unless they aren't anywhere near the minion wave then you've already won.

Even in lane, I don't see why someone would stand still to the point where Zed can hit a double E

not pointless, it's valid for zed as well. the fact that other champions have no escapes means that zed has one more tool than them and means he is that much stronger.

I mean, that argument can be used against every champion with mobility, so it's pointless By your logic, we should nerf every champion with an escape

right but saying he's melee is just ignoring the potential range of his poke.

At the end of the day, he's still melee. If he Qs to CS, you have poke advantage. If he Qs to poke, you get CS advantage By being a ranged mage, you shouldn't let him AA minions to get CS without retaliation

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Even in lane, I don't see why someone would stand still to the point where Zed can hit a double E

i should clarify, i was using the wet noodle enemy as an example of zeds potential energy usage. if you do the same thing for shen or kennen for example you will see a dramatic difference in how long it takes to go ooe.

I mean, that argument can be used against every champion with mobility, so it's pointless By your logic, we should nerf every champion with an escape

mobility creep is a thing, yes. not saying all mobile champions are inherently strong, but mobility is often valued less than it should be when discussing champion balance. but we digress...

At the end of the day, he's still melee. If he Qs to CS, you have poke advantage. If he Qs to poke, you get CS advantage By being a ranged mage, you shouldn't let him AA minions to get CS without retaliation

this is the ranged advantage but when both sides have ranged abilities, and one of them has AA that do almost no damage then they can hardly use them to harass with. if you use your abilities to harass you go oom quickly, your AA will do little to deter zed since you won't be building any ad, and you have to play safer because zed has amazing all in potential. zed outtrades many mages who also have to manage their mana.

Azirion Sol1 votes

{quoted}

i should clarify, i was using the wet noodle enemy as an example of zeds potential energy usage. if you do the same thing for shen or kennen for example you will see a dramatic difference in how long it takes to go ooe.

Hitting the same target with the same ability twice, is inherently harder than hitting the first champion you collide with, but, yeah, I see your point

mobility creep is a thing, yes. not saying all mobile champions are inherently strong, but mobility is often valued less than it should be when discussing champion balance. but we digress...

Let's stay on-track

this is the ranged advantage but when both sides have ranged abilities, and one of them has AA that do almost no damage then they can hardly use them to harass with. if you use your abilities to harass you go oom quickly, your AA will do little to deter zed since you won't be building any ad, and you have to play safer because zed has amazing all in potential. zed outtrades many mages who also have to manage their mana.

If we're talking about 1 minutes in, with only starting items, then each AA counts, and in such a case, ranged champions, building AD or not, are inherently advantaged

If we're talking later on in the game, then I don't think that any mages would need their AAs to burst a squishy 100-0 with their abilities alone, or 60-0, if still laning and not yet fed

Besides, Zed has to choose between harrassing with Qs and eating harrass while last-hitting (or miss CS) or last-hit with Qs and not have any major way of retaliation against enemy harrass

Every assassins have great all-in potential, for a varying degree of risk

Talon, for example, all-ins without any means of escape. If he calculated his damages right, you're dead 90% of the time, without much that you could've done

Zed, in the other hand, all-ins you with a way to escape, but if does so too early, he misses a lot of damage. If you sidestep his Qs right after his Deathmark, he lost a lot of damage. If you throw CC behind you right as he comes out, he'll probably be dead under turret, or take heavy minion damage while you counter-engage

Duroxxigar1 votes

I don't feel like he should get any compensation from a nerf to begin with. But at the same time, don't overnerf him.

DJ Siamak1 votes

Just make his Q deal 50% damage to minions (+X% per X AD) so that his waveclear is worse early-game and he can't farm effortlessly even when behind.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

these are good suggestions. bump.

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