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Zed is not a healthy champion.

Khristophoros··52 votes·3,784 views

If your standard is being less toxic than Akali, or most assassins, sure. That is setting the bar pretty low. Relative to most champions, no. I'll try to be concise and go over why I feel Zed is unhealthy. I feel that Zed has such a complete set of strategic and tactical advantages that he's not healthy.

  • Laning: Well the fact that he can get his CS consistently under any form of pressure aside from being killed. However, he is among the best at escaping from ganks and bad situations. Safe laning like this is not necessarily a problem by itself. It is a problem on a champion who can engage, burst, and disengage so fluidly and safely. Most champions who are so dangerous can be shut down early game which reduces their threat mid/late.

  • Engage: Zed can engage from a huge total distance between W and R. This is a low counterplay engage due to the distance he can engage from. To make it worse, he can dodge all enemy engages with his R while engaging himself.

  • Disengage/Safety: Zed can instantly disengage after he uses R, and he can choose to do this after he has done his whole burst combo. After such a powerful and versatile engage he also has probably the best disengage? I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a healthy pattern at all. I mean, he can even R, then R instantly before doing anything... and it leaves a shadow next to his target so he can still hit them with his skills. Given another moment he could have left a W shadow there too to get more damage.

  • Lack of counterplay: The idea that Zed has a lot of counterplay is a big misconception because most of the ways you can stop him are with long cooldowns which are hard counters to his kit. However, stopping him from getting a kill when he engages doesn't put you at an advantage. It just forces him to disengage, which he can easily do. He doesn't have to commit. He can easily force you to use important cooldowns just by ulting you and he doesn't put himself in danger by doing so.

So what I'm trying to get to is, how are you supposed to do anything about Zed? Yes, it's nice that you get a lot of warnings about what he is doing. The problem is you can't do anything about it. You can blow cooldowns or die.

51 Comments

OnanThaMan12 votes

He was healthy until the mana nerfs, now all the mages that kept him in check are oom mana after a few minutes in lane against him. That and he is like LeeSin he is strong in almost every position he is in when played right and doesn't have any many weaknesses besides late game when everyone has had a chance to progress their builds farther. He could use some toning down, not some heavy nerfs like they did with Elise.

PROJECTJehuty10 votes

My only thing about zed is, having been in a game where a guy was really skilled at him, it didn't matter how much CC we had because of his speed and his ability to get out. I'm just a firm believer that as an Assassin they should be committed to go in, pick up a kill, and damn well expect to be nearly killed if not outright killed in the process. Honestly, Zed is probably the most powerful assassin in the game at the moment in my opinion. He's better then Rengar and Kha'Zik, back when they were good no sorry I meant Kha'zik, in his ability to just about kill anyone.

Agreed or disagreed, I don't worry so much about Zed or bash those who use him; I for one don't like his kit, as far as playing him, so I congratulate anyone who can use him effectively and well as I do anyone who can play any champion proficiently. Although, I'd love to see some variety but that would involve Riot doing something about champs with BUFFS and not nerfs.

For example. I actually like Galio, always have, and sure people QQ all the time about his mana cost; however, my issue is with his ult and how it's still so easy to knock him out of it so it's entirely useless completely. Almost all champs nowadays are capable of it and it's really hindered him. However, this is not a discussion about Galio =P

Anyway, fellas I see both sides of the argument and hopefully Riot, in my opinion, will either rework "energy" or make mana regen items a bit more appealing again. Don't get me started on Athene's X_X why do people still get that crap item let alone rush it?

SmokinSickStyle4 votes

AP ones don't count for you?

Zed right now is the best among AD, but not the best at all, despite what people QQ about him.

Are people seriously complaining about him when there's LB and Fizz around?

They are much easier, OP AP itemization and faster burst and decent transition lategame, where they don't need to be delegated to splitpush 24\7 just because enemy has Zhonyas\QSS.

Shunye2 votes

they are taking away dfg. that's where the majority of ap assassin burst comes from. Also to argue that fizz is anywhere as strong as zed is laughable. fizz has weaknesses, glaring ones.

Stark60002 votes

{quoted}

AP ones don't count for you?

Zed right now is the best among AD, but not the best at all, despite what people QQ about him.

Are people seriously complaining about him when there's LB and Fizz around?

They are much easier, OP AP itemization and faster burst and decent transition lategame, where they don't need to be delegated to splitpush 24\7 just because enemy has Zhonyas\QSS.

fizz and lb are way easier to deal with/exploit

BrianHung0001 votes

Yeah thats true, its like having faker on the enemy team as zed

Caharin8 votes

Zed IS a healthy assassin. These are my points why:

  • CC shuts down his escape and engage and severy reduces his damage output.

  • QSS removes all instances of his Ultimate.

  • Zhonyas completely counters his ultimate.

  • Using Living Shadow, Shadow Slash and Razor Shuriken takes all his energy, there's nothing left for him to do at that point.

If someone picks Zed, get your top/mid to pick someone like Kayle who can decline all damage done to squishies for 3 seconds (the duration of Death Mark's passive before the trigger) so just there is a hard counter to his engage.

I'd say, stop trying to say that his strengths emphasise that he is unhealthy, but take a look at him as a whole. What does he have? A skillshot that's fairly easy to dodge. A huge, black imitation that is easy to see, just back off from it to don't take damage. A low cd aoe slash that is just around him/shadows. Stay away and it's fine. A huge, black cross over a squishy. Get QSS/Zhonyas and cleanse it away. Or have a Kayle in the team to negate all damage done during and by the Death Mark.

He has easy disengage? Sure he has. He is the MASTER OF SHADOWS, it's thematically correct. He should be slippery. He's also a ninja, it kinda goes with the job description. Get some deep and some defensive wards and you can see him come and run any time, so easy to cahse him then!

But once he blows his cooldowns, he has to wait and actually manage his energy. I play Zed from time to time, I'm no Zed main, but his energy needs to be managed just like Lee/Shen/Kennen to be effective. He can blow everything and then sit and wait for his cooldowns to come back and to get 180 energy for his full W>E>Q.

Why is Zed always considered unhealthy? He doesn't have an abusive kit, neither does he have a huge winrate. He is decent. Because whoever you play, you can itemize and play around him! Zed can't itemize against QSS or Zhonyas, he must ult a squishy and can the squishy go golden or cleanse it, he's out of the equation.

That's the simplest solution to Zed, no nerfs or anything needs to be done. He is perfectly balanced.

LiveYiOrDieHard15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inanis Iridis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7kAkLMfj,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-21T11:51:18.496+0000)

Why is Zed always considered unhealthy? He doesn't have an abusive kit

lmao

most hilarious part of your entire post

Caharin8 votes

Tell me, wich part of his kit is abusable? The Living Shadow? Oh yeah, that long cooldown for a short dash is so abusable. His Q? Tell me, how is no other Q more abusable? His E? Almost no range. His ulti? So easy to negate the damage! The escape? Stun and kill, especially now that stacked CC has been fixed. Tell me, how is this kit abusable?

LiveYiOrDieHard12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inanis Iridis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7kAkLMfj,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-21T12:13:16.346+0000)

Tell me, wich part of his kit is abusable? The Living Shadow? Oh yeah, that long cooldown for a short dash is so abusable. His Q? Tell me, how is no other Q more abusable? His E? Almost no range. His ulti? So easy to negate the damage! The escape? Stun and kill, especially now that stacked CC has been fixed. Tell me, how is this kit abusable?

You've gotta be joking

Strong early manaless waveclear with harass, good initiation, possible the best escapability in the game thanks to his shadows, high damage on just about anyone because penetration rapes tanky items right now...

Caharin5 votes

I'm not joking. Everything you said can be achieved by other champions (except the shadow escapability, and it's not so great as you think, neither is the supposedly strong waveclear early with almost no damage)

People think Zed is some OP press all the buttons instantly win champion. I've played alot of games before I transfered to EUW. And I've played alot on EUW aswell. I've got about 120 or so games with Zed, during all his nerfs etc. He isn't as strong as you believe.

Shunye4 votes

the main problem with zed is there is almost zero counterplay before you get major items. so 1-8 you are at the mercy of him being able to all in you in lane and just pop back to his shadow while taking zero damage. until they fix his early game energy so he cant just spam shadow / shuriken in lane it wont change either.

FistOfSharkiesha5 votes

Sure let me buy an item solely to counter his ultimate while he buys BOTRK and stomps the shit out of me with his manaless abilities and auto attacks.

Let me waste all of my cc, my ultimate, and an item cooldown just so he can safely disengage.

Caharin1 votes

Yes, you should buy an item that SOLELY counters his huge, monstrous ability. If you can't see the value in that you're pretty blunt and stupid, tbh.

Oh, and if you blow everything and he escapes, that's on YOU, not him. You're not good enough to kill him? He doesn't die. End of story.

not a starburst1 votes

Right. So I'm, say, Syndra. I've got my Zhonya's. Where's my mana again? Oh, right. I don't have any. Because I had to rush Zhonya's, so I have no mana regen. People like you always say "well just rush Zhonya's" and I'm like gee, I totally forgot! Let me just run over and buy the eighth most expensive item in the entire game, brb. So Zed just gets to shove me out of lane because he can endlessly spam skills and make himself practically impossible to gank, then back, get lifesteal, and have infinite sustain, too. But don't worry! I have Zhonya's, which means he forces me out of lane, takes my tower, runs bot, and gets a double kill.

Also, you're like 'well if he escapes, it's your fault' but have you considered that he can just ult, force you to use Zhonya's, and then casually stroll out while you can't do anything because, well, you're still frozen in time? And if you don't freeze yourself, he just murders you because he's Zed. Where's the counterplay in all of this? Your counterplay with Zhonya's isn't so much not dying as forcing Zed to roam to get kills. And then Zed runs mid again and zones you some more, in case you get any silly ideas like 'winning lane'.

Caharin1 votes

OK, so say I'm Zed vs. you. If you get Zhonyas, I'm not dumb enough to ult you. So knowing that you have Zhonyas usually forces the Zed to NOT ulti, because you turn Golden and he can't do jack.

Oh, and you complain on mana reg? How about, erhm, buy a potion or two? Or maybe, I don't know, don't spam aimlessly just because you can, and you will have mana. You DO realize that Zed can't do jack vs. Syndra, you get two Q's and the stun and then just walk up and ulti him and he dies. Syndra has better burst than Zed so that's just a bad comparison.

Oh, and how about dodge his Q? And maybe hit him? How about that Zed takes a beating from ANYONE with range because, HURRDURR, ranged autos. It might only be 50 damage per AA, but after ten autos he's taken 500 damage. That he can't do jack shit about.

So instead of crying that you need to make choises based on who you face (completely natural for any type of game, act and react you know?) maybe play the matchup better? If you let him zone you, that's YOUR problem. Whenever I play Zed, I can't zone for shit. Because everyone I face is an AP steamroller like said Syndra or Ahri, and if I get hit by stun/charm I'll loose more than half of my HP. Should I sit and cry because I'll most likely will need to build a QSS to remove debuffs? Because it's a completely valid choise I need to make to escape Syndra stun and Ahri Charm and LB Chain. No, maybe I should cry because AP champs can build DFG and insta burst me with target-nukes like Syndra ulti, which I can't dodge no matter what I do.

The same "arguments" you gave me can be used against AP champs when I play Zed. He has no way near infinite sustain, since he needs to sit and auto all day to get some life back. And it's not alot untill he has 4 items and has damage.

Oh, and also, Zed's main poke comes from using E and Q together with his Shadow, HIS ONLY ESCAPE ON A VERY LONG CD! So how about that?! Did he just poke you? Well I'll be damned, now there's a big window were he can't do anything but walk, so how about poke him back and maybe get a kill?

Gosh, you give no solid ground for anything you say, Zed is in no way OP and in no way is he completely unbalanced. Learn to play vs. him, play him yourself and find out his strentghs and weaknesses. You learn nothing from crying over a broken kit you don't even know.

Terra Booma3 votes

Listen man, I'm on the fence about the whole Zed thing.

But for the love of god do not compare his energy managing to Shen.

Before the buff, Shen could only use TWO abilities before going OOE if you choose to dash and miss (Which may I remind is quite easy to do, small little hitbox that dash is.)

Caharin1 votes

I know, I know. I mainly compare Zed's energy management to those who NEEDS to manage it.I feel like Akali doesn't even need energy because it doesn't limit her at all. While all other energy champs actually are limited by it. Shen might be a bad example because you are right, missing the dash meant 120 energy down the sink. I played him alot back in S2-early S3, I remember the frustration.

Terra Booma1 votes

Alrighty then, just making sure you remember :P

In all honesty, I will admit that Zed isn't the worst when it comes to energy, I think he has too easy of a time yes, but it IS possible to mess up.

If I had to make a Tier list of how little energy effects them:

Akali Lee Sin Zed Shen

And frankly, I don't know enough about Kennen but I'm pretty sure he's around Shen level.

But I do see where your coming from, at least the way Zed restores energy can at least be somewhat effected by dodging a second shuriken

Strident6 votes

If you only look at the positives, it's really easy to get tunneled that a certain champion is overpowered. There are several qualities that define other champions as being good that Zed does not have, such as:

Crowd Control

Fast Wave Clear during a siege

Magic Damage

Sustain long ranged damage options

Ranged auto attacks

20% CDR options

And that's not to say that it's because of these things that Zed isn't strong. It just means that listing strengths doesn't really get anywhere. I could make the argument that Orianna was an unhealthy champion because her ball zones out other players without having to do anything, trades ranged auto attacks for free too well, gets free defensive stats and a shield, and has reliable team movement speed on top of high, AoE damage and syngetic CC.

But I wouldn't necessarily be right about that. A lot of that just comes from numbers being relatively too high during certain patches.

Likewise, I don't think Zed's kit is inherently broken. As an avid Zed player myself, playing Zed has to be very deliberate and any weaknesses you have are accentuated, so you have to be very careful with picking your fights. In lane, energy management and skillshot accuracy determines your presence, and then itemization is expensive. Dealing with CC champions like Lissandra, slippery ones like Katarina, Fizz, and Leblanc, or ones that often just deal damage faster than you without response like Talon can often times be difficult to lane with. AoE junglers like Amumu, you have to watch out for because they can lock you out easily. Itemization like Hourglass, Banshee's, GA, and QSS are effective at negating Zed's ultimate altogether, and options like Chalice, Exhaust and Aegis make it more difficult to assassinate someone.

It's very difficult to play Zed against a team that knows their own strengthes and weaknesses well, because Zed is very much so about taking advantages here and there, and is balanced around that, because otherwise you'll find him somewhat underwhelming. He's not an easy champion to play by any means, and is jukeable given that you haven't fed him to hell.

CIockw0rk3 votes

I agree that Zed is terrible at taking turrets down on a siege. Could be a big disavantage. So what Zed players do, they split and catch unfair fight in the jungle since he can do whatever he wants safely.

PROJECTJehuty4 votes

See I'm not going to take a side, but I'm going to stress a point a majority of others have been making about Zed. As where AP mages who lane against them are dependent on their skills to poke at him they are also heavily crippled by mana usage; With the recent changes, nerfs, to mana regen it makes it even more difficult to effectively utilize CD + Mana Regen for those skills with long cooldowns and high mana usage per instance. Where, yes as a player you should be careful with your mana usage and try to avoid running out. Although, a mage must frequently go back to compensate for the lack of Mana regen items as where Zed is allowed to free farm for days. Energy based champions have a huge advantage at the moment, the rate in which returns + no items at all are required or essential in the restoring of energy, and it is because of this they can safely and are more prone to poke/spam abilities against mages who otherwise are no longer able to otherwise to the same for good exchanges.

The way I see it though, if this continues, we'll see a complete shift in the Meta. Slowly but surely people are noticing it's better to use a Mage in top lane as to oppose to mid; don't be surprised when all casters decide top lane is the best lane entirely. What I believe will happen, if this goes unchecked, you'll eventually see you're tankier/bruiser champs mid to easily deal with champs like Zed/Talon/Yasuo.

Just my opinion on the matter.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

If your standard is being less toxic than Akali, or most assassins, sure. That is setting the bar pretty low.

Assassin health is indeed a general problem.

  • Laning: Well the fact that he can get his CS consistently under any form of pressure aside from being killed. However, he is among the best at escaping from ganks and bad situations. Safe laning like this is not necessarily a problem by itself. It is a problem on a champion who can engage, burst, and disengage so fluidly and safely. Most champions who are so dangerous can be shut down early game which reduces their threat mid/late.

This isn't a game health problem. This is a tuning problem -- effectively, you're saying he is too threatening mid/late to have such a strong early game.

  • Engage: Zed can engage from a huge total distance between W and R. This is a low counterplay engage due to the distance he can engage from. To make it worse, he can dodge all enemy engages with his R while engaging himself.

I think Zed's engage patterns have tons of counterplay. Way more than most burst champions. Compare with Syndra, Lissandra, Fiora, or Wukong.

  • Disengage/Safety: Zed can instantly disengage after he uses R, and he can choose to do this after he has done his whole burst combo. After such a powerful and versatile engage he also has probably the best disengage? I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a healthy pattern at all. I mean, he can even R, then R instantly before doing anything... and it leaves a shadow next to his target so he can still hit them with his skills. Given another moment he could have left a W shadow there too to get more damage.

I think the margin of safety on Zed R is the most pressing game health problem here. There's just no such thing as punishing Zed for making a bad "all-in".

I'd really like to see them make R2 only usable on kill or assist.

So what I'm trying to get to is, how are you supposed to do anything about Zed? Yes, it's nice that you get a lot of warnings about what he is doing. The problem is you can't do anything about it. You can blow cooldowns or die.

Going cooldown for cooldown doesn't seem like such a bad deal. For example, exchanging Zed ult for Lissandra ult feels pretty fair for both sides.

Rikari3 votes

Zed is very healthy.

He eats all his veggies,works out every day and finishes all his assignments on time and quickly. He lives a life with no stress,demands or commitments and is always far away from danger.

Onerios2 votes

The main issue with zed is that he is exactly what an assassin should be like outside of lane, but that all breaks down while in a 1v1 situation. In teamfights he clearly telegraphs himself, you can negate his damage output through a range of means, energy limitations keep him in check, and all sides have options. While in a 1v1 (either laning or splitpushing) he ends up with high waveclearing potential, long range harass, sustain, and high target agnostic damage while also having a decent degree of safety if he chooses to sacrifice the range on his harass, so you can often find yourself in a situation where you can't meaningfully pressure him, but at the same time he has pressure on you.

D1rtFarmer1 votes

so, what you're saying its okay because he can only execute one person indefinitely?

Onerios1 votes

Sorry that took a while to get back to you. No, he is not fine overall because of his power in lane, but outside of lane is better balanced then most assassins, so need to figure out a way to hurt his laning and splitpushing without damaging his overall assassination potential in teamfights. Not the easiest of tasks, but you need to define the problem adequately before you can attempt to fix it.

Knight Devout2 votes

One problem that all rioter tend to ignore for the sake of "notgonnadealwithit" is how the "damage over time" IS A LIE. A BIG FAT LIE. Now, a really bad Zed will confuse himself while using Marked for Death and don't know how to use his spells. However, a good Zed , right after engaging throws his Q, botrk active if it's possible, and shadow slash. This means that, sure, you will be damaged after Mark of Death triggers, but the biggest part of Zed damage has already been applied to you. In a game where zed death mark damage scaled harder with Zed autos and less with Zed abilities, this would hold true, but at the moment the "you have three seconds to react is a big fat lie. He jumps with r, uses his abilities, uses botrk if you flash away, and you have already been bursted , you just don't know yet. on top of that, he has a huge time window to reposition with R, if he hasn't more target to chase or if he's being focused.

Hotdogs1 votes

i think ive nailed why i dont like zed

your counterplay options against him (cc, zhonyas, etc) only come into play after he chooses a point where he opens himself to be vulnerable but his counterplay options against you (disjointing your abilities, dodging your skillshots) and his mobility stop you from making plays onto him at any time

the outcome is mostly decided by how good the zed player is, not the other player.

SmokinSickStyle5 votes

Tell me more about how other assassins won't kill you based on your skill.

Assassins were and ARE always like this, how do you prevent a LeBlanc\Akali\Fizz to kill you over and over again?

Once again it depends on the player using that champ.

If a LB or Fizz don't want to expose themselves and get killed they won't, and when they get the chance they'll ace your team.

What you described is what most assassins with mobility do these days, heck LB and Fizz are 100% more annoying to deal with than Zed, first of all they are AP and they can abuse it's itemization, and they have much more reliable escapes than Zed does (LB making lifebars disappearing while disappearing herself, oh you dropped her hp bar too? NP passive op.), Fizz just gives 0 fucks because his escape tool has barely any CD plus it's the highest non ultimate scaling defensive spell in the game, balanced.

You don't like Zed, you dislike assassins.

CIockw0rk3 votes

yup, but now Talon Zed Yasuo will Rain over League because DFG gone, lots less Fizz and probably RIP to Leblanc.

D16 Quindi1 votes

Zed is not op by any means and it will be sad that they r nearing him. He can be countered and is on of the hardest champions in the game to play. For all of you people who say he is op go into a ranked game with him for the first time and see how you do. For the people who master him gj good for you, you should deserve to win and gain lp. Personally zed is one of my mains and I am sad that he will be nerfed he is fine in the current state he is and the mid lane is pretty balanced well I guess we r back to season 3 just waveclear and q which takes 0 skill and is no fucking fun.

Shunye1 votes

balanced in team fights. not balanced in laning phase. manaless aoe waveclear and harass and free damage to minions below 50% health ensuring last hits (if anything I expect them to get rid of this with their first balance patch for zed) on top of nerfing all the other ap assassins by way of deleting dfg means zed needs nerfs too.

qetzel1 votes

{quoted}

  • Laning: Well the fact that he can get his CS consistently under any form of pressure aside from being killed. However, he is among the best at escaping from ganks and bad situations. Safe laning like this is not necessarily a problem by itself. It is a problem on a champion who can engage, burst, and disengage so fluidly and safely. Most champions who are so dangerous can be shut down early game which reduces their threat mid/late.

Perhaps this is a concern on a melee assassin. However, let us have a look at some other melee assassins. Katarina has bouncing blades early on. THis lets her pick up a little extra CS from range and also to far under her turret (combining this with W and E). Akali also has a point and click ranged ability for CSing. Fizz has no ranged farming ability, true, but a good Fizz can pick up loads of CS under turret with effective use of Q and W. All three of these also have some mid-late game AOE farming ability.

  • Engage: Zed can engage from a huge total distance between W and R. This is a low counterplay engage due to the distance he can engage from. To make it worse, he can dodge all enemy engages with his R while engaging himself.

I disagree with this point. To engage from such a long distance with Q and R means that he significantly lowers his damage output. This lowers the potency of the engage significantly. It also does have some counterplay. It is a telegraphed ability, you know what is coming. You have a short amount of time to reposition yourself appropriately. I like to move towards my tank or support so that Zed is CCed immediately. If neither of them is around then I go for a turret. If there is no turret around then WTF am I doing alone and pushed up?

  • Disengage/Safety: Zed can instantly disengage after he uses R, and he can choose to do this after he has done his whole burst combo. After such a powerful and versatile engage he also has probably the best disengage? I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a healthy pattern at all. I mean, he can even R, then R instantly before doing anything... and it leaves a shadow next to his target so he can still hit them with his skills. Given another moment he could have left a W shadow there too to get more damage.

Yes. This is a thing. It is better than Zed spawning a shadow right next to the target he jumped to though, giving him an instant mimicked Slash and often a Shuriken as well, but that is not the point. Aside from his turret pushing, I would say that this is the only unhealthy (which does not equal unbalanced) thing about him. Random change that I have not thought through. What do you think of only letting him jump out until he has killed the Death Marked target. This could make him more single target focused.

  • Lack of counterplay: The idea that Zed has a lot of counterplay is a big misconception because most of the ways you can stop him are with long cooldowns which are hard counters to his kit. However, stopping him from getting a kill when he engages doesn't put you at an advantage. It just forces him to disengage, which he can easily do. He doesn't have to commit. He can easily force you to use important cooldowns just by ulting you and he doesn't put himself in danger by doing so.

I believe that Zed has more counterplay than other assassins. You know exactly where he can jump to. Once he Uses Death Mark, the shadow stays where it is. Once he uses Living Shadow, he can't change the position. He can immediately jump, yes, but so can many champions. The fact that his delayed jump is not only predictable, but certain, offers more counterplay. Also, the repositioning during the cast time of Death Mark that I have already mentioned.

FYI, counter building is not counter play. Counter play is to do with mechanics and game sense. Buying a QSS will save your life and is worthwhile, but it isn't counterplay. Building a Zhonya's should really be done anyway...

So what I'm trying to get to is, how are you supposed to do anything about Zed? Yes, it's nice that you get a lot of warnings about what he is doing. The problem is you can't do anything about it. You can blow cooldowns or die.

I suppose that the counterplay to Zed is all team based. You need to be able to rely on a team mate to instantly CC when Death Mark comes down, you need to rely on a team mate to "mark" Zed's shadow. You do not have guaranteed counterplay unless you are playing with friends If you are caught completely out of position or you are alone, you will die, as is right and proper. But even then, a QSS should save your life, and it is only a 90 second cooldown for an 80 second cooldown at max rank (I know Zed typically gets ~ 20 % cooldown reduction, but you should be able to stay in position for ~30 seconds maximum)

tl;dr: Counterplay exists but relies on your team. Counter building exists, although shouldn't necessarily have to be relied upon., Split-push is bull, although may be fixed next patch. Laning isn't significantly better than other melee assassins.

SMALL* changes:

  1. Can only return to Ultimate shadow if the Death Marked target is still alive
  2. Movement through units is removed from the ultimate - who likes invisible power

*I am not a game designer, for all I know these changes are horrifyingly bad.

D1rtFarmer1 votes

comparing zed to another op kit doesnt prove your case

qetzel1 votes

Comparing Zed to three similar kits suggests that, at least in the laning phase, he isn't very far out of line.

I seriously doubt these champions will get nerfs targeted at their laning phases.

Shunye1 votes

kat doesn't have the same "push you out of lane" presence that zed has. she cant just push you out by hitting you with 3 shurikens. the shurikens she throws actually have to be followed up by her jumping into melee range and exposing herself. zed on the other hand can sit back and zone you with the shadow still sitting there that you cant walk near without getting hit.

fizz also has the glaring weakness of a very short range and a kit that exposes him to follow up harass if he decides to do damage using his gap closer. leblanc is the only one remotely comparable to zed as far as lane mobility goes, the major difference there is she has to land a skill shot that can be blocked by minions, or spam dash / q to go oom early game. Even then, she is WAAAAAY squishier than zed.

Ratchet Skank1 votes

Well thanks Inanis. I never thought about building Zhonyas on a 250 armor Darius, but now Im doing it every time I Kalista, Riven, or Darius. I'm sure that would help him not get obliterated. That post is nice and all but it neglects the fact he can be completely shut down from kills and a good portion of CS and just bide his time unlike assassins with more counterplay who actually need to be carried through a bit if they don't succeed early, with PLENTY of chances to thrive and succeed past that point if they play it well. Unlike zed who can pop someone at level 11 with one item then snowball as hard as anyone else. Not seeing mages every game and having most bans be assassins doesn't say anything to you?

paulolol1 votes

Don't forget about his super easy wave clear with his manaless spam, in addition to his passive that lets him farm under tower with ease. Oh and his mobility thanks to his optimal build which includes BOTRK/cutlass for the active, %hp dmg, sustain, ghostblade for more catching potential, and of course mobis so that anyone without a dash can't escape.

Oh but he's the poster child for Riot's assassins because he's "balanced." Right...

And let's be real. People say his weakness is his single target damage... Well that's why most good Zeds end up split pushing near late game and are still able to destroy anyone who tries to stop him. And if he's not able to 1v1, he can just run the fuck away, hide in a bush, and then LS of creep and push again.

He's a problem, especially for any ADC without a gapcloser or flash up. Because as soon as he ults you, you have to juke 3 shurikens, two e's, all while kiting him and hoping that your team backs you up somewhat. When I play Jinx, I pretty much HAVE to blow flash after he ults to survive.

Blastermine1 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget about his super easy wave clear with his manaless spam, in addition to his passive that lets him farm under tower with ease. Oh and his mobility thanks to his optimal build which includes BOTRK/cutlass for the active, %hp dmg, sustain, ghostblade for more catching potential, and of course mobis so that anyone without a dash can't escape.

Oh but he's the poster child for Riot's assassins because he's "balanced." Right...

And let's be real. People say his weakness is his single target damage... Well that's why most good Zeds end up split pushing near late game and are still able to destroy anyone who tries to stop him. And if he's not able to 1v1, he can just run the fuck away, hide in a bush, and then LS of creep and push again.

He's a problem, especially for any ADC without a gapcloser or flash up. Because as soon as he ults you, you have to juke 3 shurikens, two e's, all while kiting him and hoping that your team backs you up somewhat. When I play Jinx, I pretty much HAVE to blow flash after he ults to survive.

(insert strong assassin) is a problem for any Marksman. Working as intended. If Assassins couldn't kill Marksmen 1v1, no one would pick them.

Magma Lux Mid1 votes

Zed is oppressive... if you can't dodge/land skill shots. I have forced Zeds back before I had to as a mana based mage because he couldn't risk farming even with his q. I've had them jump on me with his ult and still not get a kill thanks to effective use of flash, exhaust, and shields.

The only three champions I've found oppressive in mid lane are: Swain, Morgana, and Annie. Swain I just have trouble dealing with. Morg pushes faster than anyone I've seen, and Annie may as well be manaless.

CIockw0rk1 votes

I would only shorten the range he can cast R, so his escape would be less reliable, since u can maybe reach his R shadow. That would makes Zed haters happy and Zed players still playing Zed.

CIockw0rk1 votes

as long as they dont touch Skarner and Azir. I dont mind too much about anything on Zed :D

CIockw0rk1 votes

That's a huge point. One point repeated over and over and its a fact and all true.

The ''counter play'' people expose here are just a big joke. This is all effictive only to avoid being killed.... not to fight him, only to effectively defend against him.

It's so funny ''exaust him, ''gg''. '' holy fk, do you know what's the cooldown on exaust vs his ult? Do you know that you need to be A LOT more fed than Zed to kill him with a Lissandra ult, he will escape. And finish you off with his passiv half a minute later. Because hard CC champions are not met to burst champion 100-0. It would be ridiculously OP. If you rush Zonyas, say bybye to your entire game because you will be OOM for 25minutes. Add the fact the blue buff doesnt stay on you as long as before (if the jungler give it to you, lol, an other story ;) )

I agree it's extremely difficult to lane vs Zed. It could be a bit better late game, since Zed struggle to be as effective as early-mid game.

Anyway, i hate zed.

Watch91 votes

The reason Riot called him healthy, was because Zed is the BEST example of an Assassin. Assassins are meant to kill their target and get out before anyone even noticed it.

Silents4291 votes

Again, They said they are going to nerf him in areas where people complain about him, and because they didn't word it to your specifications, your going to nitpick it, and bitch over it anyway.

ZED IS GETTING NERFED. Now stop complaining.

Oleandervine1 votes

Just a friendly reminder that win rates do not reflect the amount of OP-ness that champions have.

A win rate is a stat, governed by averages. If there are 1500 high ranked players who delete people left and right with a character who requires time to learn, but 7500 other players who consistently lose because they have trouble with the learning curve, it would appear that said character only has a 17% win rate on account of the data being skewed. Win rate and OP-ness do not correlate with one another. What does correlate with OP-ness is popularity, so the more OP a character is, the higher it's popularity. This causes the win rate to fluctuate as players new to the character will try to be as OP as they see him elsewhere and often fail horribly because they're unused to how he works, thus skewing his win rate.

Migrañaboy1 votes

What is to peel?

RadiantWings1 votes

The rest of Zed's kit would actually have been fine if it weren't for the fact that his ult practically turns them all into a point-click nukes. As it is, the rest of his abilities now have to be balanced around that fact. It wouldn't be as bad if his ult range was much shorter though (meaning that he has to be really close to use it to dodge incoming attacks, and he can't jump back quite as far with just his ult.)

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