Why is Thornmail's passive a passive? Why not an active?

darkdill·Apr 5, 2015·2 votes·1,034 views

Thornmail is kinda poisonous against ADCs and physicals because it creates an automatic lose scenario if you're forced to attack someone using it. And the workaround? Getting MR and lifesteal just creates a stat war, not a contest of skill.

Thornmail would probably be a healthier and thus buffable item if its effect were tied to an active and weren't just a passive. But Riot doesn't seem to want this idea, despite knowing that Thornmail is a pretty stupid item that doesn't involve skill and just punishes people for physical compositions.

So why is it that Thornmail's reflect is a passive effect and doesn't involve you activating it with good timing?

EDIT: And why is it if you start ANY topic about Thornmail, you get attacked?

18 Comments

IcyPepperApr 5, 20154 votes

because of item 3035 passive.

Imagine the adc outcry if it was turned into an active.

Considering there's no tank counterpart (the closest, IIRC is cinderhulk) other than stacking MORE armor.

darkdillApr 5, 20151 votes

Here's the thing, though: If it's an active, it'd have a cooldown and thus significant downtime. If you wait until the effect comes off, and then attack, you don't take ANY reflected damage.

insaiyanbaccaApr 5, 20157 votes

yes so why isnt armor pen on lw an active? and you just run away until the lw effect wears off?

IcyPepperApr 5, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing, though: If it's an active, it'd have a cooldown and thus significant downtime. If you wait until the effect comes off, and then attack, you don't take ANY reflected damage.

But the problem here is that attack damage scales into late game, and thornmail is (typically, but with exceptions) a late game item. If it was changed to an active, it would become significantly stronger (and Rammus/Shen would be nerfed). You want to counter thornmail? Build sustain and LW. Botrk is great for it.

But it wouldn't be fair for the tanks. Look at botrk (which has an active AND passive) and last whisper. Two standard adc items that are especially strong against adcs. Not to mention that tanks don't get the level of sustain adc's do, mostly.

The point is that it's already balanced as is. Changing it to an active would makes the kite-able, the out-sustainable, the 1/3-reduced-armor and 8%-of-their-hp-per-botrk-shot tanks even weaker. Imagine if last whisper had an active but no passive, botrk lost one of them, and infinity edge had an active instead of passive.

If you can think of a good reason why that's not a thing, then you understand why thornmail gets the passive.

thinking manApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

because of passive.

Imagine the adc outcry if it was turned into an active.

Considering there's no tank counterpart (the closest, IIRC is cinderhulk) other than stacking MORE armor.

that's because everybody only being able to touch a tank for 5 seconds out of 60-90 seconds is shit.

Also if it were an active that'd just bring a Zed/Talon/Riven meta.

You cannot compare the two since Thornmail shuts people down way harder than Last Whisper does.

The GG JanitorApr 5, 20154 votes

I really like your idea of making it a active, but then the item becomes extremely weak if it becomes a active. Perhaps also have the active part grant healing or a lot of regen for the duration. I understand that thornmail is a frustrating item to play against as a auto att champ but keep in mind that it is a completely useless against AP, unlike Banshee, it does not have hp and or passive regen which could be helpful against AD or AP.

KerzoohApr 5, 20154 votes

{quoted}

EDIT: And why is it if you start ANY topic about Thornmail, you get attacked?

Thornmail is prickly, so talking about it makes everybody suffer collateral damage

DreddethApr 5, 20151 votes

I'd say that's just Thornmail's passive kicking in. If you try to gut Thornmail, it'll try to kill you right back.

SEKAIApr 5, 20154 votes

With enough lifesteal and damage you can ignore thornmail completely anyway, it's pretty much just a mid game item. And you can simply ignore those who built it earlier in mid game by not right clicking on them, how is this hard to do?

If they rush thornmail, they won't have their core and they won't be able to do damage, and they won't have MR. ADCs shouldn't go solo people anyways, especially not against someone who has thornmail under his belt.

If you were to say that thornmail is "is a pretty stupid item that doesn't involve skill" then all item is, from Last Whisper to Shiv to BotRK anything that gives you stats is no skill? Please.

Building, counterbuilding and prioritising are all part of the skill you will need in this game, it's more subtle and SHOULD be more important than landing flashy skill shots, or other twitch reflex actions that completely relies on your ping, that frankly, is the one that takes no skill.

Making the passive active will mean the item is completely gutted since congrats, thornmail is a now glorified version of chain vest, with a pitiful active that only works for 1 hit at best. No, just no.

What about your adc's arm pen items that proc every single hit like Last Whisper, or the chain lightnings of Shiv, or your BotRK's %hp passive AND active, Bloodthirster and IE? To suggest Thornmail is broken when you're using all the items above daily is just insulting.

thinking manApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

With enough lifesteal and damage you can ignore thornmail completely anyway, it's pretty much just a mid game item. And you can simply ignore those who built it earlier in mid game by not right clicking on them, how is this hard to do?

If they rush thornmail, they won't have their core and they won't be able to do damage, and they won't have MR. ADCs shouldn't go solo people anyways, especially not against someone who has thornmail under his belt.

If you were to say that thornmail is "is a pretty stupid item that doesn't involve skill" then all item is, from Last Whisper to Shiv to BotRK anything that gives you stats is no skill? Please.

Building, counterbuilding and prioritising are all part of the skill you will need in this game, it's more subtle and SHOULD be more important than landing flashy skill shots, or other twitch reflex actions that completely relies on your ping, that frankly, is the one that takes no skill.

Making the passive active will mean the item is completely gutted since congrats, thornmail is a now glorified version of chain vest, with a pitiful active that only works for 1 hit at best. No, just no.

What about your adc's arm pen items that proc every single hit like Last Whisper, or the chain lightnings of Shiv, or your BotRK's %hp passive AND active, Bloodthirster and IE? To suggest Thornmail is broken when you're using all the items above daily is just insulting.

You need 60% lifesteal to completely ignore a Thornmail if we are assuming that the Thornmail is just Thornmail and that the person shooting doesn't have any resistances.

It is realistically impossible to ever ignore Thornmail.

IcyPepperApr 5, 20152 votes

You need 60% lifesteal to completely ignore a Thornmail

So? Lifesteal only reduces it, not completely eliminates it. Just like how armor reduces physical damage but cannot completely eliminate it.

You can't completely ignore last whisper.

You can't completely ignore infinity edge.

You can't completely ignore blade of the ruined king.

And you can't completely ignore thornmail.

thinking manApr 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So? Lifesteal only reduces it, not completely eliminates it. Just like how armor reduces physical damage but cannot completely eliminate it.

You can't completely ignore last whisper.

You can't completely ignore infinity edge.

You can't completely ignore blade of the ruined king.

And you can't completely ignore thornmail.

He said ignore completely.

I am disproving that.

IcyPepperApr 5, 20151 votes

I wouldn't say completely, but it becomes much less of a threat with lifesteal probably to the point of autoattacks with no AD built. Not enough to be a threat, I believe, but that's if you build botrk and BT.

Trash MammaIApr 5, 20153 votes

Thornmail becomes null and void once someone grabs a BT though.

EDIT: And why is it if you start ANY topic about Thornmail, you get attacked?

And because most people that complain about thornmail are ADC(Marksman) mains who are already breastfed everything they could want and usually cry about thornmail because it keeps them from being able to kill people in 4 hits from a distance

Joe DreddApr 5, 20152 votes

thats like saying getting armor because enemy has ad is a stat war and makes it no skill

ModKnightsKemplarApr 5, 20152 votes

The reason you get attacked is because the community isn't adept at reasonable discussion.

So, without flaming you, I will tell you that thornmail is fine. Other actives are good because they don't rely on something happening from the other team. Your suggestion is akin to making GA's passive into an active. Just not a good plan.

If it's active, it can be silenced. Also, the enemy adc can wait out the effect before killing you. It would be useless.

Also, it's not like thornmail is abused. It's only built in niche situations.

Penguin EclipseApr 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail is kinda poisonous against ADCs and physicals because it creates an automatic lose scenario if you're forced to attack someone using it. And the workaround? Getting MR and lifesteal just creates a stat war, not a contest of skill.

Actually it is more of a contest of skill than you would think. Thornmail is extremely strong against teams that have 3 or 4 AA/ physical damage reliant teams. Also known as terrible team compositions that deserve to be punished but still happen all the time. The effects of thornmail can be mitigated. Yet it is not uncommon to see adcs with 5 items completed, none of which have LS. Or they have no armor pen. There are also occasions of the opposite, where they will build their entire build around countering thornmail, completely oblivious to the fact that there are 4 other enemies to fight and 4 other team mates to help take down the person with thornmail.

Thornmail goes beyond simply stacking/countering defensive stats. That makes it unique and you have to have a decent understanding of the game if you want to use and counter it effectively.

EchoZeeroApr 5, 20151 votes

Thornmail wouldn't work as an active, they would just wait until you're in CD and start attacking again. Offensive items with actives work because you're the one using it and acting with the active effect in mind. If you had to activate a Thornmail you'd just get ignored until its effect wore off, rendering it useless.