Just got one hit by talon at level 3

I suk Clocks·Oct 8, 2016·3 votes·2,463 views

I was full health talon was half health.. Im playing tryn top.. he just killed me with one combo at level 3.. Not sure how this is possible? My wave was bigger .. I couldnt even auto him before I died. I this realistic or was he modding? Forgot to mention I had a jungler there with me who also go no damage off on him.. He just clean one hit me and walked away without taking damage from either of us.

49 Comments

AstôlfoOct 8, 20169 votes

Talon: 59.8 base AD at level 3 10 AD from Long Sword 8.55 AD from Marks 6.75 AD from Quints 2% increased ability damage from Sorcery Deal 3% more from DES 3.32 AD from Natural Talent 2.5% increased damage on CC'd targets from Oppressor 2% increased damage from Assassin 3.9 Armor Pen from Precision 5% increased damage on targets below 40% health from Merciless (Total Bonus AD: 10+8.55+6.75+3.32=28.62)

Tryndamere: 770 base health at level 3 28.7 base armor at level 3 9 armor from Seals Take 1.5% additional damage from DES 40% health of 770 is 308.

The most exaggerated level 3 cheese combo, which assumes the Tryndamere is a fool and does nothing and just lets Talon hit him for free, step by step:

Talon's E slows by 99% for 0.25 seconds and makes him blink behind Tryndamere, amplifying all damage dealt by 3% for the next 3 seconds (does not affect Ignite). We will assume the Talon player is able to achieve his combo within 3 seconds for the purpose of this demonstration.
Talon autoattacks regularly. (59.8+10+8.55+6.75+3.32=88.42) His passive increases the damage by 10%, his E increases the damage by 3%, Assassin increases the damage by 2%, DES increases the damage by 3%, and Oppressor increases it by 2.5%. Thus, the damage from this auto is 88.42 x (110% x 103% x 102% x 103% x 102.5%) = 122.008805% modifier, which makes the autoattack deal 107.880185 damage before armor. And then Tryndamere's DES factors in, which increases the damage by 1.5% to 109.498388. Tryndamere has 37.7 armor, while Talon has 3.9 armor penetration, effectively making Tryndamere's armor be worth 33.8. This makes the armor effectively change the damage multiplier to 0.747384155 (74.7384155%). So Talon's autoattack deals 81.8373602. Tryndamere has 688.16264 health left. The slow from E has ended.
Talon hits you with Rake for 30 damage per pass + 60% bonus AD. So 60 + 120% bonus AD just from the W, which amounts to 60+34.344, which equals 94.344. His E modifier increases by 3%, Sorcery increases by 2%, DES increases by 3%, and Assassin increases by 2%, and Oppressor increases by 2.5% which makes the end multiplier be be 1.13135437 multiplier (113.135437%) Thus, it deals 106.736497 damage before armor. The 1.5% additional from Tryndamere's DES increases it to 108.337544. The armor pen vs armor multiplier, like before, is 0.747384155. Thus, Talon's Rake deals 80.9697638 damage after hitting both passes. Tryndamere has 607.192876 health left.
Talon hits you with another auto, which deals 81.8373602 (like before). Tryndamere has 525.355516 health left.
Thunderlord's goes off for 30 (10 x level) + 8.586 (30% of bonus AD) + 0.501 (10% of bonus AP, said AP being from Natural Talent) damage which equals 39.087 damage. Tryndamere has 33.9 base MR at level 3 + 9 from Glyphs, making it 42.9 effectively. Now, Talon's various factors include Assassin (2% increase), Precision (3.9 MPen), DES (3% additional), and Tryndamere's DES (1.5% additional to him). 42.9 MR becomes 39 MR effectively with Precision's MPen. 39.087 x (102% x 103%) = 41.0648022. 41.0648022 x (101.5%) = 41.6807742. The MR multiplier is effectively 0.71942446, making Thunderlord's as a whole deal 29.9861685 damage. Tryndamere has 495.369347 health left.
Talon resets his autoattack with his Q and hits you again. The autoattack deals 30+30% bonus AD as bonus physical damage initially, which is 30+8.586 which equals 38.586 bonus damage. Thus, Talon's auto deals 38.586+88.42 damage before multipliers, which results in 127.276 damage. Talon's own multipliers increases it to 155.287927, and Tryndamere's DES increases it to 157.617246. The armor reduction reduces it to 117.800632. Tryndamere has 377.568715 health left.
The bleed from Talon's Q deals 1.7+(16.7% bonus AD) per second for 6 seconds. I'll be generous and say both of the first 2 initial ticks get the Oppressor increase (saying that the autoattacks from both after the Rake took 0 seconds). A tick deals 6.47954 damage before multipliers and armor/armorpen. His multipliers increase it by 1.0984023x, making it 7.11714164 per tick. Armor reduction vs pen changes it to 5.31923889 per tick. So the first two ticks deal 10.6384778. The next 4 ticks equal 6.8+66.8% bonus AD which equals 25.91816 total. The multiplier here is 1.071612 which makes it deal 27.7742113. Armor reduces it to 20.7580054. Tryndamere has 346.172232 health left.
Around the same time, Tryndamere would have been Ignited, which would deal 50+(20 x level) damage. Which equals 110 damage. 346.172232 - 110 = 236.172232

If you want to be super technical and go by each individual tick to see when the 'below 40% health takes 5% increased', here we go. I'll even be generous and assume that Ignite tick goes off before the Q tick so it'll trigger the Q proc faster. Each Ignite tick is 22 damage (110 divided by 5). Tryndamere's Health before the ticks on either start is 377.568715. Ignite is not affected by damage altering sources.

Ignite tick 1 is 377.568715-22=355.568715 Q tick 1 is 355.568715-5.31923889=350.249476 Ignite tick 2 is 350.249476-22=328.249476 Q tick 2 is 328.249476-5.31923889=322.930237 Ignite tick 3 is 322.930237-22=300.930237

The cutoff has been reached, as Tryndamere's health at 40% is 308.

Q tick 3 would have the multipliers of Sorcery, DES, Assassin, Merciless, the Tryndamere's DES, and be affected by Talon's armorpen and Tryndamere's armor. The relevant multipliers are (102 x 103% x 105%) for Talon's, which places the Q tick damage at 6.47954 x 1.10313 which equals 7.14777496. Tryndamere's DES puts it at 7.50516371. Armor puts it at 5.60924044. Anyways... continuing on.

Q tick 3 is 300.930237-5.60924044=295.320997 Ignite tick 4 is 295.320997-22=273.320997 Q tick 4 is 273.320997-5.60924044=267.711757 Ignite tick 5 (Final Ignite tick) is 267.711757-22=245.711757 Q tick 5 is 245.711757-5.60924044=240.102517 Q tick 6 (Final Q tick) is 240.102517-5.60924044=234.493277.

Even with Merciless factored in, there's barely a 2-3 health point's worth of damage in difference.

That is nowhere near 0. You are incorrect, and either are flat-out lying through your teeth, or exaggerating through faulty memory/anger/salt.

TequilaZombieOct 8, 20163 votes

This was beatiful!

Mig89Oct 8, 20162 votes

I was going to leave the same comment but you beat me to it XD

CerealBoxOfDoomOct 8, 20162 votes

was going to say the same thing but... what the fuck mig!

NotSpecialDudeOct 8, 20161 votes

There is one source of damage that is unaccounted for in this calculation, and its likely the tryn forgot about this as well. Minion damage. Could a minion wave deal the remaining damage?

AstôlfoOct 8, 20161 votes

If he took 235 damage in 3 seconds from minions, he did something very wrong. Also, if he was full health, he wouldn't have been aggroing Talon, which would have triggered the minions' rules to aggro as "protection" for their team. So I considered it as negligible damage.

NotSpecialDudeOct 8, 20161 votes

Oh well I tried, but to be honest odds are he exaggerate how much health he had. He likely was 80% during the trade.

AstôlfoOct 8, 20163 votes

Yeah, that's what I mean. But for him to die to Talon's combo, he'd have to be less than 70% health. Even with minion aggro or such, he wouldn't die unless he had like ~75%, 80% if I'm being generous.

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

I'm with you man. It made no sense at all.. That's why I wen't to the forums.. to see if somehow this is some kind of crazy power spike, or weakness exploited on tryn..

NotSpecialDudeOct 10, 20161 votes

Thinking about it. Talon could have leveled up during the trade but that's about the only other factor I can think of and its a shaky one at best that or the talon had a crit rune and got really lucky

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

Ok No the minion damage was accounted for, I had a wave of about 8 minions he had 3 casters that I couldn't get to before the fight happened. So after this long winded set of responses where people claim I over exaggerated or lied. It;s clear to me that he was in fact using some kind of hack to kill me in that fight. I have over 500 games in ranked, and I have never seen anything like it. The fight lasted literally about a second long. He was probably cheating somehow.. He didn't have ignite either.

Im sure the casters didn't even aggro onto me tbh I never did any damage to him, and he engaged right in the middle of my minion wave. They might have shot me but It wouldn't explain the speed and manner in which I died.

TyrekGoldenspearOct 10, 20161 votes

Hey nice job!

And they say Bronzies don't know about the game. :)

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

Nah It actually as more like he came up and combo'd me in about 1 second then walked away. I have played over 500 games in ranked, and never saw anything like this happen. He had tp not ignite.. The fight lasted at most a second long. He blinked onto me and I was dead. I appreciate the very detailed response. It was\ actually very helpful to me.. What I don't appreciate is you calling me a liar when it this actually happened.

My jungler thought it was strange too, and asked where the other guy was? There was noone else it was just talon.

I made the forum post because it was very strange, I had never seen anyone get bursted down that early that fast. So You can retract your snarky ass remark, and except that maybe either a glitch, hack, or just something out of the ordinary had happened.

I remember there was only about 400 damage accounted for in the death summary, and I had full health.. It was truly strange.

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

My jungler thought it was strange too, and asked where the other guy was? There was noone else it was just talon. At least I'm pretty confident there was no other champion there sniping.. It was beyond not right in my mind.. Hence forum post asking if it's possible.

Side note.. I didn't even have time to be angry or salty was more or less in a slight state of shock and confusion.

AstôlfoOct 8, 20162 votes

You're still squishy and have almost no defense items. Talon has level 3 cheese potential against players that don't know how to play against him. E-Q-W+Ignite is a thing.

I suk ClocksOct 8, 20162 votes

Thats pretty unbalanced.. then since it happened instantly with no time to react.

AstôlfoOct 8, 20161 votes

Not at all. It's called respecting power spikes, especially as someone who's incredibly against an assassin's essentially full mini-combo and playing smart/defensively and starting/building defensively.

Also I doubt you were full health, unless he got multiple autos in.

I suk ClocksOct 8, 20162 votes

Iono seemed unnatural to me. Thanks for the feedback though.. Ill be sure to ban that champ every game from now on.

AstôlfoOct 8, 20161 votes

Talon's not really banworthy, but sure.

I suk ClocksOct 8, 20161 votes

He is if he can just flash and deal 1000 damage at level 3 haha

RivuoOct 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=I suk Clocks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7htpoobJ,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-08T15:02:42.935+0000)

He is if he can just flash and deal 1000 damage at level 3 haha

You gotta remember hes an assassin, hes literally ment to do one thing and thats kill any ONE squishy champ.

im an adc main and i understand this.. Yeah talons damage is definitely scary i have to agree with you.

I dont think hes ban worthy only because he has such a low play rate that the odds of you coming across talons is so rare

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

Dude I've even laned against talon before with sona, and I never got blasted that hard when I played her. Sure he's capable of strait demolishing someone if they get caught out of position. But this was like.. Oh ganks coming, gonna go engage... BOOP dead..... wtf was that?

I think Im just going to start using some kind of playback thing. Not so much for this sort of thing, cause it's the only time I have seen something like this..

The closest thing I have ever seen to this is an extremely fed vayne tumbling and almost one hitting a caitlyn .. But not at level 3... not with only 20cs.. Nah it was weird.

People on these forums are rude as shit to assume I'm lying. I think I'm about done wasting my time on here since peopel in this community have serious small pp syndrome.

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20161 votes

level 3 1000 damage combo? that's bullshit.

JayenKeiOct 8, 20161 votes

LOOOL Let me just do some estimations for you

Assuming Talon has flat armor pen runes and AD quints + Long sword

Base AD: 59.8 at level 3 + 6.75 AD from runes + 10 AD from Long sword = 76.5 AD He would also have + 11.52 Armor Pen

A standard E + AA + Q + W + ignite combo would do

AA empowered by E: ~78 damage Q empowered by E: ~114 damage W empowered by E: ~40 damage Thunderlords: ~30 damage Ignite: 110 damage

In total Talon can do ~370 damage with that combo which includes thunderlords and ignite

At level 3 Tryndamere has 770 health + ~30 armor so even with Talon's flat armor pen from runes won't completely negate you

Theoretically you'll still have at least 400 health assuming he uses everything including ignite...

Don't go around over exaggerating things man it's literally an impossibility for Talon to do that.

AstôlfoOct 8, 20162 votes

If Talon Es, then AAs, Ws, AAs, Q reset AAs, and Ignites all within 3 seconds of the E, and makes sure that the two AAs after the W takes 0 seconds so that both Q bleed procs will get the Oppressor mastery benefit off the 2s long W slow, Tryndamere will take about 535 damage total, after factoring in TLD's damage. Except the situation I just described is so ridiculously overexaggerated that it's still irrelevant. xD OP has no idea what he's talking about.

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

There is no way he even auto attacked me in the time that this happened. Unless he had hella attack speed runes.. His animation was slow af when he was clearing. So Im not buying into the idea that he somehow did enough aa damage for this to happen. I would have seen I was losing health too fast and flashed to my turret that I was frozen near and got away. Something bugged or he cheated I am fully convinced of this now. If I got outplayed or made a mistake I wouldn't be on the forums asking questions about it.

I have made pleanty of horrible plays in the past.. this was just.. weird

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20164 votes

Talon's early damage is really shit compraed to something like kha'zix or even a tryndamere. This post is bullshit.

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

I assure you it happened, but at the time I was thinking it was complete bullshit too,.

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20162 votes

that's impossible.

Talon's early damage is cloer to -10 than 600.

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

I agree it's impossible, he probably hacked, or some bug occured.. this is becoming more obvious the more I read some of these detailed damage analysis.

RequiemsfireOct 8, 20162 votes

As a mastery 6 talon who loves playing mid with him, I'll tell you, you're lying. To kill you, he had to jump onto you, throw his rake back, auto Q auto, ignite, by which point you've had more than adequate time to flash but I supposed you tried to fight back instead or refused to flash because you wouldn't have died just from the initial combo at full health.

AstôlfoOct 8, 20162 votes

I actually went and did the math because I love disproving whiny QQers like OP here with hard math. Even if Talon Es, autos, Rakes, autos and then auto-reset Qs, and then Ignites, WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT the 2 autos after the Rake took 0 seconds so that both of the Q bleed procs get the Oppressor bonus from CC from the 2s Rake slow, AND that Talon gets off all that in 3 seconds or less, AND the Thunderlord's Proc, AND the Merciless % damage increases between the individual Q bleed and Ignite procs (where Merciless only affects Q bleed) ASSUMING the Ignite proc goes off before the Q bleed proc (which makes the Merciless kick in faster), Tryndamere will have almost 235 health left, factoring in all items, masteries, and base statistics.

Math post is here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/7htpoobJ-just-got-one-hit-by-talon-at-level-3?comment=0007

ApolloclipticOct 10, 20161 votes

I think everyone is missing a point though, this isn't a post about Talon being OP, but asking how he could have pulled that off. YES it sounds like the OP is lying, and didn't see he was NOT at full health, but there is a chance, that none of you have admitted, that maybe some kind of cheat or hack was involved?

Other possibilities include Trydamere running something squishier than normal, like as seals instead of armor for some reason, being level two (which can make a difference in damage taken), though the main reason to assume that a mistake has been made is that he said Talon was low, if Talon was low, at some point there was a trade, it is unlikely there was a trade in which Trydamere took NO damage, leading back to he probably didn't notice his health was lower

people often say full hp when it's like 80%, because it's a small discrepency, but at level 2 for example, no defenses, increased caster minion damage from the low defense, Talon could theoretically pull of this burst damage
Also, I have experience with some champs that either A, have an unaccounted for powerspike (1-200 more than what they should be mathematically capable of) or B are running rare full damage builds, where they replace MR with Crit or some other damage items, or like I said, AS or Crit instead of Armor. This boosts the damage AND with a lucky crit, it may make up for the missing 200 points of damage (Once lost to a trydamere due to a lucky crit when I was voli, never underestimate a level 1/2 crit)

AstôlfoOct 10, 20161 votes

Just going to note something, but Tryndamere can gain up to 35% crit chance level 1 with his Q, and his runes will most likely be attack speed/crit chance runes, which would make it even likelier to crit (more attacks = more chance one of them will crit/more crit chance = more chance of crit per strike).

Also IDK why, but I can't find the Tryndamere vs Talon game in his OP.GG, even after updating it a few times.

ApolloclipticOct 10, 20161 votes

That's why Trydamere can be extra squishy early, cause people go that full damage option. And I have learnt not to underestimate it

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

Nah there was no ignite, he had tp. NBah Im not lying I died like the second he jumped on me, there was no time to react.. he did his little talon star animation (and I was dead before I even had time).

Your right, when I saw him go into the animation I didn't flash away, because who the fuck would in a 2v1 situation like that, and nah he isn't gonna kill me in one fuckin combo...

But then I was just dead gone poof.. Instant death. 0 sense made..

Sorry I don't have more details for you guys, Shit I wasn't even in respawn long enough to check my summary... Just sat there like.. huh??? How the hell?

SkimpychaffOct 8, 20161 votes

Did u have HP runes? Did he go full armorpen Runes? Did he have sheen? Does factors matter... if none of them are true. It's very likely he might modd

I suk ClocksOct 8, 20161 votes

I didnt looka t his bld before the game started.. but he didn;t even have ignite.. I've never been burst down by anyone that fast ever. And he had hit me with a q earlier that did almost no damage.. so the power spike made no sense.

I suk ClocksOct 8, 20161 votes

He had no kills beforehand.. this was for first blood,. I had no lag. I was at 30ms ping the entire time.. My jungler ganked I went to engage on him.. He combo'd me and I died within 1 second.. then he walked away casually from my jungler. This was literally the first 3 minutes of the game.. Just had starting items.. he had already used a pot.

Wolf QueenOct 8, 20161 votes

Its possible you had a lag spike and didnt see him autoing you a few times. If he got kills before killing you its possible he was pretty fed off those kills. Its also possible he went a full AD rune page. If he had thunderlords thats more dmg there too. If none of these things happened then he was probably hacking cause its not possible to kill you at full hp with 1 combo lvl 3 unless he autoed you inbetween his abilities or unless your exaggerating on how much hp you had

MohawkBirdOct 8, 20161 votes

[deleted]

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

Nah he killed me in about one auto attack animations worth of time.. I was watching him clear theres just.. Nah I wish I had it recorded

BhagswagOct 8, 20161 votes

Lies.

CerealBoxOfDoomOct 8, 20161 votes

would this be possible if talon had red buff and level 4?

btw talon didn't take cutthroat till level 5

I suk ClocksOct 10, 20161 votes

Nah he didn't have a buff. He was blue side anyway.. so If he did go down there to get red he would have to tp back top,,, and would be behind. I was level 3 he was level 3 slightly before me. TBH even if he had red it wouldn't make sense to me to die that instantly with that much health.

CerealBoxOfDoomOct 10, 20161 votes

if anything did happen it would have to be a bug, which isn't impossible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mERDZKLb-Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O-0GjUrBgQ

Its more likely that you just lagged though

warpenguin555Oct 10, 20161 votes

If you were that low you should have respected his damage and played a little safer

AstôlfoOct 10, 20161 votes

You realize the whole point of some of the League files being so large is to entirely server-side the important things? Things like damage and set cooldowns cannot be modified as it is checked with League's servers.

The most likely explanation is you had around 60-70% health and/or lagged out severely.

Also death recap is unreliable in general, don't bother with it.

Lawd DawgOct 12, 20161 votes

I mean as Talon, I have killed plenty of mages at lvl 3 before in less than a second. Never fought a tryn before so I don't know if it would be the same