@Meddler Context on PBE Talon nerfs?

Desiderium·Feb 28, 2016·28 votes·37,151 views

Talon

Shadow Assault (R) Cooldown increased to 100/80/60 from 75/65/55 Mana cost increased to 100 at all ranks from 80/90/100.

Mana cost I'm assuming is just to normalize it since he's an older champion. But it's worth noting that it had 80 instead of 100 because his W requires such a high amount of mana and needs to be used fairly often in order to win the lane as Talon. It is my belief that his ultimate's mana cost wasn't standard because of this, in order to keep him a viable champion.

Also, that's a rather drastic cooldown increase. Since the nerfs he received a couple years ago to his base values and scaling values, his ultimate hasn't been a hard hitting spell in the first half of the game. What's the context behind reducing its availability?

Thanks for reading.

189 Comments

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 201640 votes

There are a couple of things behind that Talon nerf:

We believe assassins are healthiest when a proportion of their burst's gated behind a long CD, particularly if they've got a really reliable kill pattern. By nature of their high target selection and burst assassins tend to have lower tactical counterplay than most other classes, so giving their opponents a window to play with where they're noticeably weaker's important. Talon's certainly not the only assassin with that issue either.
We do think Talon is too strong however. He's been on the strong side in solo queue for a really long period of time. We've held off on nerfing him in the past though since his play rate hasn't been that high so he hasn't been an urgent issue. At this point though he's been too strong for long enough we feel it's the appropriate time to act, hence the above nerf aimed at making him a bit healthier as well as cutting a bit of power.

Long term we do want to do some more substantial work on Talon. In particular if we do an assassin class update at some point he'd be one of the most likely candidates for moderate sized changes, given he's got a theme with a lot of potential but a kit that does really standard stuff.

RedCycloneFeb 28, 201622 votes

"We believe assassins are healthiest when a proportion of their burst's gated behind a long CD"

Zed hurhurhurhurhurhur

MasalarFeb 28, 20168 votes

After this nerf Talon's ult...is still on a shorter cooldown than Zed's ult. By 20 seconds each rank.

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 201624 votes

Yeah, Zed's a good example of this principle. When his ult's down his kill potential drops dramatically, both in terms of damage output and mobility/slipperiness.

MasalarFeb 28, 20162 votes

What do you guys think about Assassins that do a lot of AoE (Like Talon and, I'd say, Fiddles). Is that something you guys are ok with as long as it's rare, or is it something you think you'll look at for the eventual assassin update?

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 201616 votes

In Fiddle's case I think it's extremely appropriate, though that's in large part because I'd classify him more as a reckless AOE mage than an assassin.

For characters like Talon who are definitely true assassins I think there's some good argument against that much in-discriminant AOE. That's not to say assassins shouldn't ever have AOE damage, but that it should be a bit more deliberate than Talon's can be. Likely something we'll explore in detail whenever we eventually get to work on Talon.

LankPantsFeb 28, 201618 votes

How do you feel about Zed often adopting a playstyle where he simply clears waves against mages and uses his resource advantage to OOM them while they try to waveclear against him? Do you think this is really a playstyle that an assassin should be adopting?

DesideriumFeb 28, 20165 votes

If he's abusing energy to clear waves constantly, then he's not using that energy to poke you and/or kill you.

LankPantsFeb 28, 20168 votes

That really doesn't matter because mages generally have a resource. If Zed just plays safe and shoves into tower over and over he puts you in a situation where you either have to burn massive amounts of mana clearing waves or allow the wave to hit your tower basically giving Zed free pressure on what ever lane he wants.

This is a very legitimate method of playing Zed and it basically leaves most mages with no reall option against Zed. They basically need to hope he screws up his vision so their jungle can sneak in or that he plays overly aggressive and for some reason abandons the push strat. If Zed just plays safe and clears out waves eventually mages will OOM and then Zed gets complete lane and map pressure to abuse.

There are certainly a few mages who this doesn't apply to, for example it's part of the reason why Vlad plays very well into Zed, but for the majority of mages it's a strategy that they can't really do much about that will eventually wear them down.

QueenAquaFeb 28, 20164 votes

That situation is why I choose Annie. She is point and click for the most part and usually uses her q to farm anyways. I don't think it's a very nice or healthy way to play an assassin, but Annie is the only solution i can think of to kind of counter that play-style until it's fixed so that assassins can't play like that.

UltraFireFXFeb 28, 20162 votes

Like I posted above, a good Zed could push the wave, forcing you to use abilities and thus, your stun and then go ham on you then, also, in normals you are saying only play Annie mid, how fun. Want a counter to Zed? Play Kayle , Lissandra or Taric .

QueenAquaFeb 28, 20165 votes

Not talking about normals. I'm talking about ranked. You have no way of knowing who you will be going against in blind pick normals. And early on is the only time that a good zed pushing the wave could really hurt you. Annie's farm with q only a lot anyways and he cant kill you when you blow your stun until ult if he just pushed you to tower. Also, in your previous post, you made it sound like the Zed just leaves lane and leaves you to farm, not fight you and now your saying he's going to kill you after he pushes you to tower. Also, you're being incredibly rude to me for suggesting you play annie as a counter. I even said she's the only champ i can think of at this moment who would stand a chance against that kind of play-style. I even said I don't agree with that play-style. You're acting incredibly snarky to me for no good reason. I didn't insult you and I didn't say you're stupid or anything like that. I gave a suggestion. You're reaction was unwarranted.

Cloak an DaggerFeb 28, 201613 votes

{quoted}

How do you feel about Zed often adopting a playstyle where he simply clears waves against mages and uses his resource advantage to OOM them while they try to waveclear against him? Do you think this is really a playstyle that an assassin should be adopting?

We're not allowed to talk about that. The zed mains will become outraged if you expose that elephant in the room.

ShadowParkerFeb 28, 20162 votes

2 questions.

Do you suspect that a ap assassin item will be created later on to better balance the ap counterparts?

This is one isn't related to assassins. 2. What are riot's thoughts on Zz'rot portal being picked up much more frequently? Are you guys happy or sad? Is the item on the strong side or weak?

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 20167 votes

Gut reaction is that AP itemization's less in need of assassin specific options than AD itemization. The system team (group responsible for most new item creation/item reworks) is doing a bit of work on AP items at the moment, from memory none of it's specifically assassin focused though.

It's good to see Zz'rot being used. Suspect its stats may look a bit overtuned once it's being used appropriately consistently, that's very much just a personal feeling though. One thing that's particularly interesting about it is that it's an item that's being used pretty different in pro play in different regions, with some regional metas favoring it extremely heavily and others not using it much at all. Different regions have different tendencies all the time of course, this is one of the stronger examples of that we've seen in a while though.

ShadowParkerFeb 28, 20162 votes

Alright, cool. Thank you! 1 last thing though.

This is more of a QoL, but with Zz'rot being picked up- is there any chance we can get some sort of indicator of which turret the minions will go to and or the path they will take?

ThryaleFeb 28, 20164 votes

when you do do work on talon, I'd really like to see ya'll give him more of an Assassin's Creed feel to go with his epic looks.

I don't know how you'd fit parkour and stealthy stabbing action + awesome hand to hand combat into a game like league, but I'm sure if you tried to keep to the themes at least, it'd turn out pretty epic! :D

3TWarriorFeb 29, 20162 votes

it'd probably wreck our processors

Cloak an DaggerFeb 28, 20166 votes

{quoted}

In Fiddle's case I think it's extremely appropriate, though that's in large part because I'd classify him more as a reckless AOE mage than an assassin.

For characters like Talon who are definitely true assassins I think there's some good argument against that much in-discriminant AOE. That's not to say assassins shouldn't ever have AOE damage, but that it should be a bit more deliberate than Talon's can be. Likely something we'll explore in detail whenever we eventually get to work on Talon.

I feel historically you all have found "bugs" or some other excuse to nerf Talon when there are champions that are far more successful and reliable. His laning is already incredibly weak and he's gated by mana. His ult is his escape as well and there is already counter-play in the form of true sight. Are you ever going to address the fact that his passive is still garbage and his E is nonexistent until late-game aside from being a conditional blink that is on a long cool-down. High win-rate is inflated by the low-pick rate. Most of the players who pick talon are good with him and usually as a counter-pick.

I'm still kind of salty about the insulting .25s SLOW that you replaced his silence with. Please for the love of god take his damage amp (maxed last) his passive and that garbage slow and give him utility. It's frustrating to see you all randomly nerfing champions out of the blue that don't even need it half as bad as Freelora who is still very strong after her nerfs. Max% hp true damage scaling with AD is the worst design I have ever seen bar none.

He's either useless all game or a god. His E damage amp isn't even noticeable late-game because it's just overkill. The most lack luster part of his entire kit with the exception of his passive which to this day remains one of the least useful for an AD casting assassin. There is a reason Zed is picked over Talon in competitive.

Talon seems to be Riot's red-headed step-child.

Fun fact Katarina ultimate death lotus cool-down is 90/60/45 seconds and she doesn't have to worry about mana at all. Just received buffs. Her laning is also better and she has an escape with a passive that is miles superior, rewarding her for pulling off an assassination.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 28, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Zed's a good example of this principle. When his ult's down his kill potential drops dramatically, both in terms of damage output and mobility/slipperiness.

Sorry for going off track but you held off nerfing talon due to pickrate which is perfectly reasonable but well since you are here what's keeping lux and ahri safe because they have over double his pickrate with about the same winrate and I think we can agree that ahri charm nerf was negligible and lux is getting nothing done here. Meanwhile Talon is getting a very large nerf to his early game.

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 201610 votes

We'll probably take a look at Ahri once the charm nerf's had a patch's worth of time to settle. Overall power impact's probably not that high, it's a change we believe appropriate regardless of her power level though so we wanted to put that out first and then assess what else to do with it in place.

Lux I suspect we'll also act on soon, I haven't talked to the Live Gameplay team (group that handles balance for champions/items once they've been in the game for more than a few patches) about her in detail recently though, so not 100% certain as to their thinking as to how out of line she is/isn't and what the appropriate things to nerf might be.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Lux I suspect we'll also act on soon, I haven't talked to the Live Gameplay team (group that handles balance for champions/items once they've been in the game for more than a few patches) about her in detail recently though, so not 100% certain as to their thinking as to how out of line she is/isn't and what the appropriate things to nerf might be.

You have given me hope. This is enough. Unless the entire balance team plays her in which case all hope is lost. There are so many questions I want to ask but no good way to actually do it. But thank you for replying :D

darkdillFeb 28, 20164 votes

[zombie-brand-mindblown] How... can you want our sweet Lux to be nerfed?

EROTIC RAID BOSSFeb 28, 20165 votes

{quoted}

[zombie-brand-mindblown] How... can you want our sweet Lux to be nerfed?

She's annoying af with her poke range and ability to delete anyone that gets hit with a q

QueenAquaFeb 28, 20162 votes

I just want to point out that, despite what you think, the most they will probably do is nerf her poke, aka her e, which doesn't scale nearly as well as her q. Her q does more overall dmg and is harder to hit. They may increase the cd on her ult, but it isn't gonna have so much impact that you can just go about your business not caring about her q's and e's. Her q's are relatively easy to dodge if you're laning against her and as long as you have wards around you, it would be difficult to actually get hit by a q in other lanes. As it is, most ppl have the Starguardian skin, which makes her ult immensely easy to dodge if you watch for it, since it starts wider than classic skin and 520-750rp skins. And if you so happen to play against a lux without it, it's just about watching for it and not going to recall in obvious places like under your turret. If you recall under your turret, get killed by her ult, and the blame the champ, you have no one to blame but yourself. That's like asking for a nerf to Ashe cause she executed you with her ult from bot lane cause she accurately guessed you were recalling under your turret. In the end, like any champ, Lux is only strong if you let her be. She has strong counters and most mid champs can kill her easily as long as you don't go about it stupidly. Syndra is often a strong pick, but also, Zed and Talon can shred her and shut her down for the rest of the game relatively easily.

My point is, Lux isn't gonna be that hurt from the nerfs that are most likely to come. Getting hit by a q is still more than likely going to get you killed even if she does get nerfed cause like every other champ with a bind or hook, she'll either have the dmg or the team to jump on it and kill you. To say she's annoying cause of her poke is ridiculous when her e has less dmg on it than her q and it's a skillshot, not a point and click. Sure, it has a slow built in, but it's easily avoidable if you watch how the player moves around with her and the e has a high mana cost, esp early game. q leaves her exposed as well, she has to step out from behind her minions, leaving her exposed to binds and hooks on your team. I've seen many Lux's get utterly destroyed cause they get shut down by the mid or the mid and jung cause they know how to avoid the binds and e's. Just keep in mind, Ahri Blitzcrank Morgana Nidalee Thresh can all take advantage of that lack of minion cover when a Lux goes to q. Not to mention, like Yousosmart said, ppl can always just get item 3102 to counter the bind, or build some mr to reduce her dmg. Also, item 3139 isn't a bad idea if you're having trouble dodging the q's and you're ad.

PledgieFeb 28, 20164 votes

tbh we need an ap qss item meddler pls

Voluug13Feb 28, 20162 votes

item 3156

EROTIC RAID BOSSFeb 28, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I don't play an AD mid

yall act like stuff like this would magically not make her win rate the highest in her position

CosnirakFeb 28, 20161 votes

She's always been annoying due to those things. What actually makes her strong right now is her ability to defend turrets and a lot of that ability comes from her ultimate. She can clear an entire wave in <2 seconds. She can also help clear waves from far away thanks to the range on her ult, resulting in a lot of towers saved from afar. Also she's not that difficult to play at a pretty decent level of competency and she's pretty fun to play, thus her play rate has always been fairly high.

EROTIC RAID BOSSFeb 28, 20161 votes

A lot of mid lane champs can clear waves extremely quickly idk if you can pinpoint that as the reason she's good

CosnirakFeb 28, 20162 votes

It's not just that she clears them, it's that she does it from far away, instantly, and safely (post lvl 6 that is). She does well in the mid and late game for a number of reasons, but that's one that a lot of people underestimate the value of I think.

BlitzedlegendFeb 28, 20162 votes

I feel as though roots and snares and other cc that stop you from moving but still let you attack should stop the dash but others shouldnt stop it

SirPurrrFeb 28, 20167 votes

{quoted}

We'll probably take a look at Ahri once the charm nerf's had a patch's worth of time to settle. Overall power impact's probably not that high, it's a change we believe appropriate regardless of her power level though so we wanted to put that out first and then assess what else to do with it in place.

Lux I suspect we'll also act on soon, I haven't talked to the Live Gameplay team (group that handles balance for champions/items once they've been in the game for more than a few patches) about her in detail recently though, so not 100% certain as to their thinking as to how out of line she is/isn't and what the appropriate things to nerf might be.

It feels like you guys are making balance decisions based on how much people whine about something rather than how objectively strong said thing is. Lux is top tier and without huge weaknesses but I doubt she's actually OP. Maybe I'm wrong though since several mid champions got nerfed, but one thing I'm definitely not wrong on is that Devourer isn't an OP item.

Whoever thought nerfing this item in the current meta is an intelligent decision needs to be put into an asylum without ever having access to LoL code again. None of the Devourer champions are strong enough to be considered in competitive for any region. To talk about "diversity" and then nerf a large class of champions who aren't even visible in top tier play is incredibly hypocritical. Just because people often fail to adapt to Devourer junglers correctly doesn't make them OP. If someone never dodged Xerath skillshots, would Xerath be OP too?

Also, if Riot really wants to nerf champions that aren't even viable at the highest levels, why nerf the core item which is used on many other champions too? Is Riot going to now buff Aatrox and Nocturne as compensation? I doubt someone clueless enough to think Devourer nerfs make sense even thought that far. Yi and Shyvana are the only good Devourer junglers right now so why ruin the item for everyone else too?

If they really are problems, nerf those champions or Rageblade - at the very least don't nerf Devourer's maximum damage along with the time it takes to get Sated. It's just such a completely nutty way of going about things. This would be akin to finding that Lucian is too strong and then nerfing IE or Berserker's despite them being core for countless other ADCs. I'm not even saying this to preserve some secret Devourer freelo - I'm avoiding ranked till there's Solo Queue since I think DQ isn't a valid ranking system. So my rambling isn't even selfish; it's just an assessment of the situation. It's driving me mad that people were actually hired to balance the game and come up with ideas this moronic while there are so many other better alternatives even for the questionable goal they have in mind. I hope there is at least one sane person on the Riot balance team. The latest Kog R/Q/W changes gave me some brief hope.

ElwynnFeb 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sorry for going off track but you held off nerfing talon due to pickrate which is perfectly reasonable but well since you are here what's keeping lux and ahri safe because they have over double his pickrate with about the same winrate and I think we can agree that ahri charm nerf was negligible and lux is getting nothing done here. Meanwhile Talon is getting a very large nerf to his early game.

you're an idiot if you believe that the charm nerf was negligible , it pretty much killed most of ahri's match ups. Keep talking out of your ass tho.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

you're an idiot if you believe that the charm nerf was negligible , it pretty much killed most of ahri's match ups. Keep talking out of your ass tho.

I'd bother insulting you but I think your name does it all for me and it's damn accurate so kudos on that. Hilariously Ahri has a positive winrate against every mid lane champion with a dash post nerf. Wanna know the best part? The champions that counter her hardest are the ones without dashes at all. So once again negligible for the people who aren't stupid aka you and people who think like you. As for the rest of us we will wait for a real nerf as this one was negligible. If you cant actually debate something and can only fling insults then head back to your basement and continue jerking it to ahri porn. The rest of us are trying to have a conversation.

Cloak an DaggerFeb 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

After this nerf Talon's ult...is still on a shorter cooldown than Zed's ult. By 20 seconds each rank.

Zed is still energy based with low cool-downs and low cost abilities. Has way more utility a passive that actually matters and is more mobile. All around way safer and more reliable.

EROTIC RAID BOSSFeb 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cloak an Dagger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7e6GlIXg,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2016-02-28T10:22:11.156+0000)

Zed is still energy based with low cool-downs and low cost abilities. Has way more utility a passive that actually matters and is more mobile. All around way safer and more reliable.

Even so overall zed wins less games. Possibly because there's a lot more counterplay to him

Cloak an DaggerFeb 28, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7e6GlIXg,comment-id=00030000000000010000,timestamp=2016-02-28T10:35:40.879+0000)

Even so overall zed wins less games. Possibly because there's a lot more counterplay to him

The data is heavily skewed. He has double the pick-rate and 1% less win-rate. Talon is used mainly as a counter-pick and typically by players who play him frequently.

AbyssphereFeb 28, 201647 votes

{quoted}

"We believe assassins are healthiest when a proportion of their burst's gated behind a long CD"

hurhurhurhurhurhur

Talon ult: 75/65/55 Talon ult post-nerf: 100/80/60 Zed ult: 120/100/80

Nothing hypocritical here.

darkdillFeb 28, 201611 votes

Zed's ult makes him UNTARGETABLE and enables him to pull lots of screwy shenanigans in good hands. Talon's doesn't pop incoming projectiles.

Silents429Feb 28, 20168 votes

He is also required to stand there for 0.5 seconds to get hit by the onslaught of CC.

His escape is also visible to the enemy.

darkdillFeb 28, 201617 votes

Same thing will happen to Talon. Doesn't matter if he's invisible, someone could still detect him and hit him with a skillshot.

Also, Zed uses ENERGY, while Talon uses mana. Zed can also poke safely, while Talon can't.

You're comparing apples and oranges, which isn't really allowed.

FasmodeyFeb 28, 201612 votes

{quoted}

Same thing will happen to Talon. Doesn't matter if he's invisible, someone could still detect him and hit him with a skillshot.

Also, Zed uses ENERGY, while Talon uses mana. Zed can also poke safely, while Talon can't.

You're comparing apples and oranges, which isn't really allowed.

Both are fruits, isn't it a comparing? Both are sweet, both grow up on trees. Both have seeds normally.

Please, this example is shit. Comparing patotoes and black holes are much better.

MoctezumaFeb 29, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Comparing patotoes and black holes are much better.

They both have mass, they both can kill you in horrible ways, and they both have a large amount of carbohydrates.

Get your facts straight.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 29, 20163 votes

black holes have 0 carbohydrates. Atoms get ripped apart when crossing the event horizon.

checkmate.

MoctezumaMar 2, 20162 votes

Ahh, can't believe I was so ignorant... You got me.

EeckaFeb 29, 20164 votes

{quoted}

You're comparing apples and oranges, which isn't really allowed.

{quoted}

Zed's ult makes him UNTARGETABLE and enables him to pull lots of screwy shenanigans in good hands. Talon's doesn't pop incoming projectiles.

So when YOU compare apples and oranges, it's ok. But when someone does it back to you, it's suddenly not ok?

UltraFireFXFeb 28, 20164 votes

Although it is visible if they are, say, melee, he instantly gets out of the danger zone and if they aren't melee he could dodge a very important skillshot if timed correctly.

Kosm1KFeb 28, 201610 votes

If Talon's going to get nerfed on his ult, can't you give him a useful passive? It hardly does anything, it adheres to the whole "empty stats" with barely any interaction from the player. Sure it's some damage whenever you use W or E, but unless you're paired with a really cc heavy team, it's not going to do much.

I can understand nerfing the CD of the ult, but the mana cost? He's already got mana troubles in lane due to his inability to kill targets pre-6. He's one of the few assassins that is really gated by mana this early. He relies heavily on his W to harass/farm, but with the removal of mana pots, he's pretty helpless in lane unless he gets corrupted potion, which still only takes the edge off because 50 mana isn't even enough for one W. Other assassins can either kill early or aren't gated by mana as heavily. The only reason his play rate is so high right now is because of item 3147 . If you happen to look at the pick rates, both Talon and Zed jumped in popularity when it released. Nerfing Talon's mana costs when he isn't really that great in a spot only makes it so no one picks him again. Zed's got a more stabilized win rate thanks to the fact that he's got such a high pick rate, it balances out. Talon's is a rollercoaster due to his low pick rate, it changes slightly with each patch, and with the various different players that actually decide to play him. Zed can do everything Talon can do but better for the most part: waveclear, safety, last hitting. The only thing Talon can do that Zed can't is more AoE damage because he's got two spells that can do that, while zed mainly has one, while the other weakens dramatically after the first hit. Talon can't buy more mana regen because all mana regen items are AP except for item 3508 which could be viable for him, but he's better off getting more armor penetration or flat damage in order to maximize his damage. Crits would rarely help him win a lane thanks to their RNG nature.

TL;DR Nerfing Talon's mana cost is just going to put him back into obscurity.

ZLbSwAR23IFeb 28, 20165 votes

{quoted}

There are a couple of things behind that Talon nerf:

We believe assassins are healthiest when a proportion of their burst's gated behind a long CD, particularly if they've got a really reliable kill pattern. By nature of their high target selection and burst assassins tend to have lower tactical counterplay than most other classes, so giving their opponents a window to play with where they're noticeably weaker's important. Talon's certainly not the only assassin with that issue either.

We do think Talon is too strong however. He's been on the strong side in solo queue for a really long period of time. We've held off on nerfing him in the past though since his play rate hasn't been that high so he hasn't been an urgent issue. At this point though he's been too strong for long enough we feel it's the appropriate time to act, hence the above nerf aimed at making him a bit healthier as well as cutting a bit of power.

Long term we do want to do some more substantial work on Talon. In particular if we do an assassin class update at some point he'd be one of the most likely candidates for moderate sized changes, given he's got a theme with a lot of potential but a kit that does really standard stuff.

You're not doing anything to address his abysmal early game, though. Talon is already a very niche pick. Severely harming his only escape tool early just makes his early game worse. I am fine with increasing his R cooldown because honestly, it's ridiculous. However, you need to compensate for that by helping him out in other areas because otherwise he's just a sitting duck in midlane when trying to farm. Maybe reduce the mana cost on his W?