Boards›Gameplay

Addressing ADC's

Ariel the Cruel··6 votes·1,634 views

Since ADC's seem to be a hot topic right now (in spite of the assassin rework), I figure it might be a good opportunity to start a slightly different conversation.

Similar to what Riot is looking at for supports (again), lets have a discussion on how we can perhaps address some of their core "issues" right now. To emphasize; this is a discussion about ADC problems and how to address them. NOT a complaint fest.

Objectives:

  • Remove RNGesus from Crit chance.
  • Decouple ADC itemization from everyone else's giving them access to anything and everything they could ever want (except armor).
  • Reinforce ADC's as a DPS class.
  • Encourage ADC team dependence.

Some personal proposals (these go together):

  1. Remove Crit chance. Rather than having crit be an ADC thing and leaving it to the whims of RNGesus, I propose making it a burst focused effect with limited access conditions. It will double non-escalation AD. This will disincentivize ADC usage while still making it powerful and something that can be played around.

  2. Add a new item stat: Escalation <#> Escalation Will increase AD by a small amount with every AA against champions, structures, and epic monsters for 5 seconds. Escalation will have a hard-cap of 20 stacks, and should break even with equivalent items at around 10 stacks.

  3. Sweeping AD stat adjustments. Reduce ADC base AD and increase base AS. Increase base AD of other champions. This will mean that an ADC building raw AD will never out-scale their ounterparts, but over the long haul will dwarf the AD of others.

  4. Reduce ADC cross-pollination with defensive items. Drastically reduce ADC access to defensive options while still retaining access to absurd damage potential late game. (I'm not personally against ADC's having defensive options. Kit defenses, Item defenses, Support (kit and item) defenses, and Life steal when ombined become a bit absurd though.

Examples of how this would look:

Ashe Passive damage amp removed. Q stacks to activate reduced to 4. Ashe trades the bonus damage for the ability to stack escalation very quickly.

Caitlyn Headshot bonus damage is replaced with a Crit. Cait still has shit base AS. This reinforces the idea of Cait taking pot-shots for high damage, while playing safe. Consistent crits (passive+net+trap) with terrible AS makes her a good candidate for a non-escalation build.

Draven No change. Draven is perfect just the way he is. ;p

Graves Graves Raw AD (non-escalation) from items is increased by 50% Graves Doesn't lend himself particularly well to DPS. This will let him use Raw AD effectively.

Lucian Passive builds 2 stacks of escalation as expected. AS unchanged. This will let him build up to the break point quickly, but ashe's should still let her max out well before him.
MasterYi Passive will generate 2 stacks of of Escalation. This guy will probably build it. At least in low Elo.

MissFortune Ult grants 1 escalation stack each time an enemy champion is damaged (not epic monsters). Her Base AD . . . Um . . . It really can't get much worse than it is now. (>_>)

Pantheon Spear still applies crits.

Quinn Harrier proc scale up to 200% AD (based on level) but still does not crit. Quinn's in a bit of an odd spot. Not quite sure how to handle her at this moment.

Rengar Q crits.

Sivir Bouncing blades deal damage based on AD when the AA was used.

Talon Melee lunge skill crits.

Twitch Escalation stacks are applied on-AA, not on-hit. No ult abuse here. ;p

Urgot Base AD reduced. Homing Acid hunters Crit. Urgod's thing is Acid hunters. I'm torn between making homing hunters grant escalation or crit. Since he tends to need defensive stats, I opted for crit.

Vayne Tumble Grants 1 stack of Escalation instead of bonus damage. During ult, tumble grants 2 escalation and each proc of silver bolts (3 stacks) grants 1 escalation - bonus AD removed. Stealth time reduced to 0.5 seconds.

Jhin 4th AA still crits. Jhin does not gain escalation, instead he gains a static bonus AD equal to 3/6/9/12/15 stacks based on level.

Yasuo Yasuo has a lot of problems. I'm too biased to address his crit fairly without screwing with the rest of his kit.

Tryndamere Tryn gains a Jhin style AA counter. Every 5th AA will Crit.

ITEMS:

item 3031 Every 5th qualifying AA will grant an additional stack of escalation. AD: 0, Escalation 4

item 3046 30 AD, does not grant escalation.

item 3094 Firecannon: your next energized AA gains bonus range and crits.

item 3087 Lightning: You next AA deals damage to enemies near the target equal to your total AD.

item 3085 Bolts deal damage equal to your current escalation bonus. Bolts do not build escalation.

item 3122 Dealing more than 20% of a targets total health in less than three seconds or applying a crit causes them to bleed for 60% your total AD over 6 seconds.

item 3508 AA's grant 0.5% max mana. Crits grant 5% max mana. 20 AD, Escalation 3.

item 3156 item 3139 item 3812 Does not grant escalation.

item 3072 20 AD, Escalation 3

item 3637 Rotary Barrel AD: 15, Escalation 1 A new intermediary for ADC items "Finally, something that's not a sword!"

item 3637 Mini-explosives 40 AD, Every 10th AA will crit. Active: your Next AA will ignore armor and crit. (60 second cooldown) (Think Crit-Hydra)

For concept comparison between items:

item 3035 20 AD

-> item 3033 40 AD

-> item 3036 20 AD, Escalation 3

At 20 stacks, Dominik's would grant 80 AD for every AA. Mortal grants a static 40 that would effectively become 80 for 1 AA with a crit.

Please note: I'm not great with numbers (especially when windows nukes all my math). So think of them more as representative.

38 Comments

Neko Caitlyn3 votes

TLDR nerf all ADCs

Get out

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

The topic: Not even close.

My proposals: Yes and no. ADC damage will ramp up to be higher during fights and when taking objectives. During short trades they'll be weaker. This is meant to reinforce the idea of them being a DPS class and increase team reliance. So their intended role will remain intact without crowding out other classes/lanes as much - especially as the match goes on.

If you have critiques or other ideas, feel free to discuss. that's the purpose of this topic. If you're here to make vague unproductive statements, then this is the wrong topic.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

didnt really read it but you have a lot of stuff down and it looks like it makes sense, upvoted

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

The beginning is the important part. The rest is just an idea.

Ralanr1 votes

An Ariel the Cruel post that is serious?

Am I reading this wrong?

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

About half my posts are serious, actually.

Ralanr1 votes

I apologize for never noticing.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Meh. Logic isn't very popular on the LoL forums, so the get berried pretty quickly. XD

khorney1 votes

so what deary woudl u do to varus

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Varus and Kog already lend themselves decently to escalation while having viable AP off-builds.

If I were to do anything to Varus it would be an identity evaluation. Since right now his AP build equates closely to Kog and his long range poke has gotten encroached on pretty hard recently. Even his passive was given to Jinx and made flat better.

Personally I see his best avenue for uniqueness as odd-ball utility.

Passive: Blight. Move from W to here, remove current passive.

Q: Reduce damage slightly, reduce charge time. Max charge interrupts. 4 second charge time and 5 second escalation duration would mean picking between the two. This should address that. Also adding a situational interrupt to reinforce his utility.

W: Oppression Skillshot applying damage and 0.25-0.5 second disarm.

E: no change.

***R:***no change.

His utility doesn't give him any particular niche outside utility. R-W/E combo could be vicious in late-game fights against another ADC. But again, this is just spit-balling. I'd rather hear what his primary player-base thinks. What issues do you see him having and how could these be addressed?

khorney1 votes

Since they changed fervor I can't do on hit build , which is ap scaling glphys and ad marks . Build was rage blade runaans cd boots nashors blade of the ruined king and last item was a choice between lord dom which I took more often then not or hextech gunblade . Build is losing damage with the new fervoe. And I can't do caster blueish build anymore because of the change in mastery and lethality and items such as Ghost blade . Many people understand the weakness that varus is facing as well as kog ...... I liked tof build tf this way lol to funny double striking with his e . Stronger ap ratio on w or having a ad ratio on it .or make his q count as a Aa like ez q so you could buy tri force . He is filled with high mana cost no self peel high cds no self attack speed buff and no his passive doesn't count .

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

On-hit builds are a bit odd in my opinion. It's a build available equally to all champions because it exists only in items. all resources and scaling for them are internal. In that respect, it's hard for me to feel sympathetic about on-hit builds in general. With that in mind I have to ask, is the on-hit build what defines Varus? Are there ways to empower him outside that build?

khorney1 votes

no, there isnt. on hit is meant for people who have on hit basics liek tf on his e teemo on his e ori if you chose to off her passive and i guess cait off ehr passive. varus has high cds high mana cost no escape no self peel low aa range. since they changed ghost blade you cant do the caster build anymore

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Champions with on-hit effects tend to favor on-hit builds. But on-hit builds rely on output from items like Nashor, Wit, and BotRK damage. On-hit builds are functionally independent of champions. This isn't a bad thing by any means. But if a champion suffers because a champion independent build is weakened, then I'm inclined to look at the champion - not the items. So if Vaurs is weak because on-hit builds are weak, then I'd rather ask what we can do for Varus specifically.

no, there isnt.

So there's no way to tweak Varus out-side giving him a lot of strong items with on-hit effects? Remember, this topic is to discuss changes that could be made to champions, mechanics, or systems. Not just about what is currently in the game. If Varus' kit were tweaked to "double down" on something and really give him the tools to do that, what would it be? If I were to do anything to Varus, it would have to reflect this question. Which is also why I would rather hear what his players think than my own opinions.

khorney1 votes

there is nothign good about varus and or strong about him since the change to fervor of battle who the fck cares about giving 8 more ad big fckn whoop. there is nothing you can do to make him strong, hence why no one plyas him after the pacth becuase nothing really works with him now ....................................................................................................make his q like ezs q.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Your input (or lack thereof) is exceedingly not helpful.

khorney1 votes

i did i said make his q like ezs q

The Deckowner1 votes

ADC need to be a class that ramps up mid and late game, with a weak early game. That way ADCs will be unable to abuse range vs melee match up in solo lanes and the jungle.(especially the jungle, Rito's fsntasy of adc jungler always backfires.)

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

So what can be done to move ADC's towards that ramp-up fantasy?

I personally don't have an issue with jungling ADC's. The problem is with the tools they give them. There is an inherent risk to taking a hyper carry into a position with no structural defenses. They should accept that risk rather than Riot giving them additions to make them work.

The reason my proposed stat (escalation) doesn't ramp up on minions is to reduce the oppression they generate in small trades. Right now, ADC's benefit from having the same damage outputs as their counterparts while also having range. By making their damage ramp up over a fight it ensures their counterparts have an opportunity to get to them and trade rather than just losing out-right due to the approach delay.

This doesn't really address the range VS melee debate in general. That would require a separate discussion entirely. Though we can touch on it a bit here if you like, it's not in the scope of this topic.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

already read it on the other thread

i 2nd this! +1

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

< Obligatory reply to topic responses. >

TenshouSNK1 votes

Why not just force all adcs back into bot lane?

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

The principle question is: "how?"

TenshouSNK1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7XfY43aK,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-11-15T06:40:19.006+0000)

The principle question is: "how?"

Make adjustments to their kits so they can be more effective in bot lane than any other lane?

Quinn and Graves, they should be changed so they can be moved back into bot lane carry

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

The issue is diversity. No champion should reasonably be forced into only 1 position without reason. To accomplish this on a kit level would require Kalista style kits where they simply aren't allowed to function without a slave.

TenshouSNK1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7XfY43aK,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-15T06:56:31.344+0000)

The issue is diversity. No champion should reasonably be forced into only 1 position without reason. To accomplish this on a kit level would require Kalista style kits where they simply aren't allowed to function without a slave.

I understand op, but graves and quinn can actually made to work in bot lane carry roles after a few tweeks to their kit, like increase range on quinn, make them more viable in bot lane so they won't be taken top or mid.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Graves is taken top because he's a glorified fighter. To get him out of solo positions would require gutting durability (his only reliable safety metric). Doing that would result in gutting his play-style which is supposed to encourage melee range engagements. So he's not going anywhere without a flat gutting or a drastic kit rework. Keep in mind he was taken top before the rework for the same reasons.

Quinn follows a similar metric. She likes solo positions for the ult roaming. She's strong against melee because of the ranged mini-burst and vault peel. The vault is also a strong reason why she doesn't go duo bot though. A half decent support will murder her initiations and other ADC's extended range zones her out. In her case, we need to increase her lane safety and decrease her roaming power. Once we do that though, like graves, we're fundamentally altering her kit and play-style.

So simple kit adjustments result in "Ahri" syndrome. They're made to work one way at the expense of their original intent.

Something to keep in mind is that the ADC bot meta developed for 2 reasons: ADC's place little stock on levels (relative) and their early game strengths give them more control over dragon. This is true now more than ever with bot turrets being the weakest and first turret gold bonuses. Let me emphasize this. As far back as late S1, ADC's were recognized as having a stronger lane phase.

Rather than blindly forcing them out of lane, I'm going to evoke Devil's advocate here and ask, "why shouldn't they be in top lane?" If the answer is simply, "they invalidate melees," then the issue isn't the lane. It's the class. How might we be able to address the class as a whole to put them more on par with their counter-parts?

Calabok1 votes

the address is

1234 POST TOO LONG STREET Kalamazzoo, Florida

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

The first part is what's important. The second part is just some ideas.

If all you're going to do is complain about length though, then why even bother to post at all?

CyberBalt1 votes

I know I'm really late, but you recently made a comment referring back to this post. So chipping my thoughts.

I agree with the first three objectives, but I'm not sold on the fourth objective (increasing their team reliance). It seems like it'd make the game even more ADC-focussed, and it's already pretty damn ADC oriented. I don't think the game should be decided solely by the adcs performance. Kind of reminds me of "protect the kog" idea actually.

But anyways, how do your suggestions even reinforce your goal of making adcs more team reliant? Maybe I'm just too blind to see, but I don't see how any of the proposed changes would make them more team dependent.

Other than that, I really like the general direction of this. I won't dwell on the numbers (I don't play anything bot lane so I have no idea if they're good), but the escalation idea I especially would support.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

The suggestions would increase team dependence as a by-product.

  1. Escalation and base AD changes cause ADC's to start fights on the weaker end of the spectrum. This makes them poor duelists.
  2. Gutting their defensive options would make them incredibly squishy (more so than now). Until they're had time to ramp up, they're effectively as threatening as supports. And in a duel, support CC would (in theory) win.

And honestly, the game will revolve around ADC's as long as DPS AA's are the most important damage metric. Only AA's arn't resource gated, Only AA's achieve a cooldown less than 1 second, and only AA's can take down structures. I made another proposal at one point (older than this) about introducing a new "siege" stat, which would determine the % damage conversion dealt to structures. Then allowing structures to take damage from all [appropriate] spells. This would open the poor non-AA focused comps while making ADC's choose between taking objective or taking fights. This would (hopefully) force a split meta between those who want to win fights then take turrets, and those who want to siege turrets while avoiding big fights. The fighters will have more opportunities to take turrets, the siegers would take turrets faster when given the chance.

BULLSEYE891 votes

i know im really late, but wow, this is a heavily-detailed post. nicely written, not just nerf all/buff all route, and best thing, it's not a RANT. now my thoughts :-

the Escalation thing seems really interesting, although, since it only grants bonus AD, it would be REALLY GOOD on champions like Varus , MissFortune , Jhin , and other such AD casters, since they already rely on AD a lot for their dmg, but would end up gutting champs that mainly function on Crit/on-hit, like Tristana , Kalista , Kennen (ADC role), and it also be a MAJOR overhaul of the ADC class, which seems stable as of now, item 3095 BS notwithstanding. so, maybe instead of REPLACING crit chance with escalation, what if we got the best of both worlds by ADDING escalation as an item-only stat to the game.

this way, we have MORE ADC build diversity with crit chance, on-hit, and then Escalation, although the interactions b/w the latter 2 will hv to be looked at to make sure no ADC abuses both types of items. (make lethality melee only, and make escalation ranged only)

as fas your 4 proposals go, i agree with all except the first, and i think you need to be careful with the 4th. as you said, leaving too many options for ADCs make it a bit absurd, but at the same time, if ADCs hv no defensive options, they become overly team reliant for protection, which wouldn't be healthy for the game.

Guardian angel - defensive item against lethal burst(mostly when the enemy has 1-2 assassins/burst mages etc...) should only give armor and MR (like the previous iteration), but restore flat health, mana, and grant the champion the ability to move around while reviving(Aatrox can do it now, why shouldn't others)

Mercurial scimitar - hybrid offensive/defensive item against high AP/CC enemy comps(mostly when the enemy has 1-2 tanks/control mages etc...) grants a little less AD than it does now, but more MR

these should be the only 2 defensive items that ADCs tend to go for

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

but would end up gutting champs that mainly function on Crit/on-hit

Escalation would pair with AS similar to modern crit itemization. So on-hit users should still be fine. Tristana would be the most likely candidate for on-hit tweaks since, without the crit cap, her W may result in too mush bonus AS. Kalista relies heavily on Rend for damage (Her AA's even have reduced scaling), so escalation would favor her over crit as well. Kennen......... Is a thing.....

what if we got the best of both worlds by ADDING escalation as an item-only stat to the game.

The problem with having both (following this iteration of escalation), is that crit becomes a flat better option. It's intended that a crit be roughly equal to 20 stacks of escalation, the trade off being that you can't crit very often. So the choice is between controlled burst or ramping-up DPS. Modern crit does both at high values.

item 3095 was not a thing when this proposal was made.

and i think you need to be careful with the 4th.

There is definitely a knife's edge to balance on there. However, if you dedicate yourself to being a glass cannon, then you shouldn't complain when any kid with a sling-shot can break you. As far as itemization goes, I'm ok with move speed and less ok with life steal (modern LS seems too high in my opinion). For anything more, they should be giving up damage (see your GA proposal). Unless Riot wants too start letting spells damage structures. . .

KlydeFrog1 votes

Bro.......its the fervor of battle rune

KlydeFrog1 votes

Sooooo you want them to bring back fervor of battle

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

In a simplified sense, yes. But make it an itemization mechanic to replace crit chance instead of generically adding more damage to the existing system.

KlydeFrog1 votes

All the adcs are good none are bad. Sivir is queen of split push and team fights. There all doing fine.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

. . . Ok?

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Ariel the Cruel

Patch 6.15 Translated
Memes & Games115 comments
156
votes
Patch 7.1 Translated
Memes & Games97 comments
153
votes
Patch 6.13 translated
Memes & Games98 comments
137
votes
After a long and grueling season, I finally did it. . .
Memes & Games34 comments
39
votes
Solution for all the junglers who are tired of relearning their role every few months (and Scuttles)
Gameplay18 comments
33
votes
Patch 8.11 Translated
Memes & Games27 comments
32
votes