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@Riot Meddler, let's have a serious discussion about Ashe

Lavaniel··1 votes·818 views
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Hello! Ashe main here, played her since my very beginning of the game. I used to build 90% crit on Ashe pre-changes, and had considerable success. Nowadays, I'm kinda confused since last nerf made it harder to gain stacks, and without the ability to crit, being able to dish out loads of damage is really important to Ashe. She's easy to dive and can hardly deal the damage she needs to because of the way her kit has been tweaked.

Today, Riot Meddler, or any other Rioter who wants to read up on the champion who literally has kept me in League of Legends, I want to change that. But I'm going to do it by comparing Ashe to other champions who utilize stacks to do damage, and most of the time, they do MORE damage than Ashe by activating less stacks to get that damage.

First, I will start out by adding on to my confusion I mentioned above. It takes 5 whole stacks to activate the Q. Before her last nerf, if you landed a well-placed volley or Ult, you could have your steroid. You were rewarded for hitting your skill shots. Nowadays, if you need the steroid, you need to W, R, and AA a bunch before you can unleash it. And without the ability to be mobile like said ADC Vayne , you are trapped to take the damage bruisers are gonna dish out to you. Often times, you will die before reaching your 5 stacks (I'm in Gold, for reference). I tried building Runaan's Hurricane on Ashe to gain my stacks, but without the ability to crit, sometimes that's just not enough damage.

Now moving on, what bothers me about Ashe's stacks is that they don't refresh. Once Ashe activates her Q, and it ends, she has to wait to re-use it. Okay, fair enough. Now let's go to other ADCs that have annoying stacks that refresh as long as they keep following their activation actions, Jinx needs to AA with her minigun for infinite amount of time, gaining up to 70% BONUS ATTACK SPEED. Wow. Vayne needs to AA one champion three times to do 60 + 8% Max Health true damage. She can do it over and over again! The current complaints on the board about her are insane -- massive damage, massive mobility. Ashe can't even move or do much damage without being super-fed. Twitch needs to be mentioned mostly because I feel bad for the amount of damage his stacks do sometimes. At least he can activate his steroid without needs to stack, though. And he does have a form of escape, even if it's not a dash. MissFortune deals more damage with the amount of times she AA on a target. That's like Vayne, and it doesn't deactivate after a short period of time like Ashe's Q does. Varus is a champion who gains attack speed on killing a minion or champion. No cooldown, can refresh as long as he meets the requirements.

Now let's talk about other champions and their stacks. Nasus, okay, thought I'd throw him first since he is the main "qq to win" champ, literally. But he's not what I'm looking for in terms of "stacks". Let's look at TahmKench, who takes just 3 stacks of either AA, or his Q, to either stun or deal 32% plus 2% per 100 of his AP of his target's maximum health. And he can keep refreshing it as long as he keeps attacking! Braum is not a good example, because his stacks are kinda in the same boat as Ashe. It takes 4 stacks to stun a target, but they cannot be stunned again for a few seconds, but instead take more damage from his abilities. So I'll give Braum that, he can't refresh his stacks like everyone else does in this game, but he can do more damage when he can't re-stack Concussive Blows.

So now that I've done the champ-o-comparative essay, let me discuss to you why I think Ashe needs to changed slightly to put her back in the game.

Ashe is not mobile. She needs a way to defend herself while still being a part of her team. Why should mobile ADCs do more damage than non-mobile ADCs if there is less risk involved in getting caught by a tank or bruiser or general diver? I don't think I need to go on too much about this statement. It is just as simple as it is.

Ashe should not be punished for landing her skill shots. Just likeAhri isn't punished for hitting damaging spells, or Diana isn't punished by putting her ultimate on CD if she lands her Q. I feel like Ashe was singled out because she was FOTM champion, and Riot didn't take the time to address what this nerf did to her. But that's okay, she was very strong with just landing a W on a minion wave, which is why I've proposed a change that will be the last thing I discuss. But honestly, Ashe should be rewarded for landing her skills. She cannot deal double her AD damage in crits, so she needs a way to be able to deal damage, and the Q is the perfect answer to that. It does end, unlike other ADCs like Jinx Vayne who refresh their stacks infinitely.

Again, Ashe cannot crit. Back in the day when I build heavy crit items, I could kill Vayne in 3 or 4 AA. I could chunk squishes and take them down. And honestly, I loved doing that. I embraced Ashe's critless personality when it was announced because I knew it would make her early game better. And it did. But at the cost made her late game much harder to carry with. She can't do the damage she did without that Q. Especially after the nerf, it made her much harder to play.

Please don't let Ashe sit as she is just because she is a 450 IP champion. All champions in the game deserved to be loved and cherished no matter their cost.

So what should we do about it? ~Future Riot Meddler Comment

Since we know that giving Ashe back her old way of gaining stacks was simply too strong, let's do this. Ashe's W can only gain a maximum of 3 stacks per cast. She doesn't get the "insta-bomb" like she was getting if she landed her volley on a creep wave. However, I think Ashe's R should grant full stacks if it hits all 5 enemies. Face it, that's really hard to do. Teams don't often sit together in a huddled nest, especially if Ashe is on the team. Ashe should be rewarded if she hits a good ult. Make the stacks last longer, 5 seconds instead of 4. Not much, but lasts longer than Vayne's 3 second nuke marker. Also lasts less than the attack speed buff Varus gets for killing a champion. Also, make her Q have scaling cooldowns. It would make her late game more viable.

So, I'll list out possible changes that could bring Ashe back into the scene, and turn that 49.54% overall winrate (lhttp://www.lolking.net/champions/) back into 50% or better, and back into the competitive scene.

_1. Make Ashe's W grant up to 3 stacks per cast 2. Make Ashe's R grant the number of stacks for each champion hit with Frost from it 3. Make stacks last 5 seconds before disappearing, and not 4. 4. Make Ashe's Q have scaling cooldowns in the later game _

I know this was long, but I really care about Ashe. I haven't been playing LoL like I have been because I can't enjoy her anymore. With Devourer like it is, she is just cannon fodder to team fights. Please, Riot, just tell me if there is anything I can do to change this. I really want to be able to play her again and actually get 5 stacks before I'm killed by the amount of OP that runs in this game.

Thank you for reading, your comments Riot would make the world to me.

8 Comments

Sightless662 votes

A large part of this post doesn't make sense. You keep claiming that the crit changes hurt your late-game DPS. Why exactly do you say this? Mathematically, your predicted DPS is exactly the same with the new critless system as with the old one, because the way normal crit functions is that 1% crit chance increases autoattack DPS by 1%, applied randomly. If you're building 3-4 crit items, you should be doing pretty much exactly the same damage as you did before. Heck, you'll actually do a bit more damage because Ashe gets a bonus 0.1 AD ratio given to her autoattacks.

I really think a large portion of this is a misunderstanding of the mathematics behind the new crit system. It would help a lot if you could explain why you think you're doing less damage with the new crit system.

Lavaniel1 votes

That is what I used to build, I don't anymore. If I built 3 crit items, back in season 4 I would build IE, and two PD,

You would have approximately 1.688 attack speed, ~180 AD, 90% chance to crit, 250% crit damage.

With the new crit system, plugging all that crit chance into the equation would equal less than the damage a crit from IE would do.

I would do that math for you for exact numerical values, but I'd probably mess up somewhere and get downvoted more becuase of it.

Sightless662 votes

With the new crit system, plugging all that crit chance into the equation would equal less than the damage a crit from IE would do.

That's only true for one hit, but over a high number of hits, you'll actually do the same damage. I'll do a comparison between the new system and the old system.

Say that you have 180 AD, and a 90% chance to crit with a 250% bonus from IE. With the old system, the crits would be hitting for 450. Over 10 hits, you expect to crit 9 times, and miss the crit once. So, you'll have 9 hits for 450, and 1 hit for 180. That is 4,230 damage. Keep in mind that the one normal hit could easily be anywhere in the attack pattern, so it's entirely possible it could come up in your first couple attacks on a carry, wrecking your burst against them.

Now, with the new system (without Ashe's new .1 AD bonus), if you have 180 AD with a 90% chance to crit and the 250% bonus from IE, then every attack would be increased by 235% (90% increase from crit chance + half of crit chance from IE bouns = 90% + 45% = 135% bonus = 235% total damage). This means that every autoattack will be doing 423 damage, which over 10 attacks is 4,230 damage. That's the exact same DPS as the old systems.

Buuuut, it's actually even better than that. The new system actually isn't equal to the old system in terms of damage, because Ashe does get a bonus .1 AD ratio on her autos applied independently of the crit calculations. So actually, she'll be doing 441 damage on her autoattacks with the new system. That's a 9 damage difference between the new system's generic autoattacks and the crits of the old system, but the old system will have some hits that aren't crits. You can lose out on DPS with the old system. That can't happen with this one. That's the beauty of this. With high-crit builds, you actually do more damage with the new system than with the old one, and there is no risk of losing the damage because you got RNG screwed. It's more DPS, given more reliably. That reliability actually means that you do more damage in the vast majority of situations. What's not to love?

Seriously, do the math for me. It's not going to hurt the main post. if you make a simple error, we can just work that out. I'm almost certain that you're having a misunderstanding of the math behind this. It was a common misconception back when the rework came out, and I'm pretty sure it's the same thing right now.

Lavaniel1 votes

Please, will people just upvote the main thread so that a Rioter will see it? Much appreciation!

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Pyrodinium1 votes

Quoting from the patch notes:

"Ranger's Focus is intended to provide a big payoff in spikes of damage for investment in the form of time spent building up Focus stacks. Currently this isn't actually the case, with would-be divers of the Frost Archer finding themselves gunned down by a flurry before the fight even starts (often thanks to tossing Volley into a minion wave or horde of enemy champions) and gaining access to her steroid instantly. Removing her immediate access to its powerful damage boost evens the playing field for her predators, requiring her to stay frosty in order to focus them down."

Having the full power of her steroid locked behind a stack system is intended as a weak point for her. Your proposed changes remove that weakness from her. Why?

Comparing Ashe's damage output to ADCs that distinguish themselves for their high damage is not really helpful, as that is not her main strength.

Lavaniel1 votes

The only change I proposed that would grant her immediate access to her Q was the R.

I said she could only gain 3 from W.

The would-be divers of Ashe nowadays are the people who build devourer and tank. She's already bursted down by them. Why not even the playing field?

And why would I not compare Ashe to other ADCs that work off stacks? Or other ADCs in general? Is Ashe meant to be a support, not ADC now?

If she's not meant to do damage, then where's the mobility? Where's the escape? Everyone complains about Vayne, but when you propose to make someone level up to their playing field, your down voted for it.

Pyrodinium1 votes

Three stacks from a single Volley is a lot, especially considering its long range and low cooldown.

There is no need to 'level the playing field' against divers, as they are supposed to be her weak point.

Ashe is meant to be an utility-oriented ADC, sacrificing part of her basic attack damage output to gain tools like a spammable AoE attack with nice scaling, a slow on all her damaging abilities, global-range scouting, and one of the best initiation skills in the game. That is the reason for which it doesn't make much sense to gauge Ashe against certified hypercarries like Jinx and Vayne.

It is true that she doesn't have a moveblock, but the point of 'huge damage or huge mobility' doesn't apply to all champions. Ashe brings much more than damage to her team.

Lavaniel1 votes

The W literally used to give you access to all 5 stacks if you landed it correctly.

Utility doesn't mean she has to only slow, and output less damage. If that was the case, then why the hell did they add Ranger's Focus in her kit?

I feel as though utility should mean that they have a way of aiding in objectives or kills for their team. Jinx has utility in rooting people, Vayne has utility in condemning people. Ashe has a built-in slow, hawkshot, and amazing stun. But that does not mean she should be punished for landing her moves correctly. If Vayne hits a person 3 times with silver bolts, she deals a bunch of true damage. This is literally fucking listed in the post. It drives me insane that people are commenting with things that were addressed in the post. Just knitpicking out the fact I mentioned popular ADCs does not mean I'm solely comparing Ashe to them only. That's why I put portraits in there, so hopeing you tl;dr-er's would see it. But I see now that no one reads these long, drawn out posts and just plucks something they can argue without someone about, literally reiterating the same information that's on here a thousand times. I should just post a thread that says "VAYNE OP QQ" and I'll get 80 upvotes. Post a thread about adjusting a champion to make her a little bit better, and you get "ERMAGERD YOU CANT COMPUR HER TO MEH HYPERCARRIES, THEY HAVE TO OP".

And saying she shouldn't be compared to other ADCs like Jinx and Vayne, is absurd. If you guys read my post all the way through, you would see I compared her to people like Varus and Diana and Ahri. Just because Jinx and Vayne are considered hypercarries should not mean that they should be granted all-around insane kits. Seriously, read it all the way through. Stop skimming shit.

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