Wait wait wait.. didn't they say they wanted to make Zoe a burst mage?

Packun Flower·Nov 3, 2017·72 votes·4,870 views

"It's been a long time since we had a new mage (and even longer since we released a new burst mage). With this in mind, we’ve redirected some time to** creating a new burst mage** with the tools to approach a fight from… interesting angles"

Source: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/10/asleepdrowsy-teaser-on-pbe.html#more

Now I know its just the teaser, but Zoe's teaser looks like she more focused on mobility and CC then she is actually bursting targets. Assuming she has really high numbers and ratio's that do allow her to burst, it looks like you've essentially made a new AP assassin with some heavy CC there.

this concerns me just a bit.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/172/230/7f2.jpg

83 Comments

YaskamasandwichNov 3, 201727 votes

I am even more worried for immobile champions right now. She flashes they flash, she flashes again. This is reminding of Kalista all over again. Probably not nearly as bad, but still. We're already in a time where immobility and clunkyness like Sion are having problems. I feel like she makes them even worse. Her sleep spell also seems easier to hit immobile champions.

PS. She's also mainly reminding me of Ekko too, and we all know how much of a pain he was. Even when building AP he was a pain just due to his mobility and escapes.

SzGamer227Nov 4, 20175 votes

I wouldn't say that Sion is having problems. He's maintained a 50%+ win rate in three roles across all ELOs for a very long time, and there's no indication that this is changing.

Sexy Jack RabbitNov 4, 20172 votes

Sion???? Having problems??? Have you seen his win-rate for the past 5 patches???

Stop spouting bs lmao.

MetleonNov 3, 201718 votes

She didn't seem to have that much cc in the teaser. She put rammus to sleep and it looked like one of the balls showed, but that's it.

She seems like a new leblanc, which kind of scares me.

ThryaleNov 3, 201712 votes

ugh. c'mon riot, leblanc is NOT a burst mage, she's a ranged assassin. Veigar, Annie, and Lux are burst mages.

Tails9016Nov 3, 20171 votes

Took me too long to get the joke

Like wayyy too long

~~We are talking about how LeBlanc should be on par with Veiger, Lux etc. in terms of burst, right?~~

ThryaleNov 3, 20173 votes

I know nothing about the current state of leblanc atm, so apologies there. Also, I made a mistake and omitted "burst mage" and accidentally put "mage" I have since corrected that. But regardless, LB has, historically at least, been known for her high mobility and strong burst damage, easily deleting priority targets.

Malicious MetalNov 3, 201716 votes

I'm just glad people are gonna find something else to permaban other than my boy Galio.

zero356Nov 3, 201750 votes

Ah, but see, we have 10 bans They will merely both be permabanned

MelledoneusNov 3, 201731 votes

Fool.

It takes 9 bans to keep Yasuo down. You can't afford to ban them both.

AzadetheNov 3, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7OJi9FdM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-11-03T14:45:00.078+0000)

I'm just glad people are gonna find something else to permaban other than my boy Galio.

The problem is we already have too many core bans needed. There's already too many game boss champs (and no Galio isn't one of them):

Jarvan is pretty much a must ban, and so is Nasus. Zed, Kha are generally must bans with current generation of Duskblade. Even Akali's been buffed to very little counterplay. Then, there's the potential Vayne, Kog ma, Twitch (depending on the skill level of the players in that elo, but even then, Kog and Twitch generally are game disruptors). The only reason Taric isn't a perma ban is because of his low pick rate, because a good team can just abuse the crap out of his ult. Brand can pull huge games even with large death rates simply because of his consistent and high scaling burn.

And then there's the fact people waste bans on healers because of their win rates (not really OP; just high win rates because they enable the others to carry). Or waste bans on personal preferences..... or Blitz.....

There are legitimately about 18 must ban champs atm, and we just keep adding more/not nerfing them.

It's kind of sad that some champs are just designed to be raid bosses whether they play poorly or great. Cho, Nasus, and Urgot.... even if they fail in lane, are so oppressive that mid/late game, the team either has a choice to zerg them to kill, and risk their 4 teammates either ambushing or pushing a lane, or those 3 will just yolo push a lane alone, while you deal with the other 4. When you have to choose between wiping 4 and losing a lane, and wiping 1 while the other 4 wipe a lane, that's just too much power in 1 champ.

(I'm not even saying Nasus an Cho an Urgot are OP. They're easy to kill. BUT they do generally require a group to kill, where most other champs are 1v1'able, and they just have such turret control it's sick)

Malicious MetalNov 3, 201711 votes

I'm gonna be honest. I do not think there are any must ban champions currently around.

I haven't really seen a champion always being banned and people are more likely to just ban their lane counters.

I personally just ban Evelynn on instinct, she's been a huge pain in the neck lately.

AzadetheNov 3, 20172 votes

Evelynn's pretty annoying in High Elo because she matches the high elo pace momentum. In lower elos, she's garbage, because teams don't create openings for her, yet expect her to carry/snowball. And she has at least 40 junglers who counter her hard, much less meta laners. And after she's behind, the game's over for her until 40 + minutes, if it happens, because she simply has no farm left in a game with no jungle left, and team fights zone her out.

Jarvan however pretty much always scores well, acts as a severe low CD flash burner, does some of the largest nonconditional % damage in the game, and has very few counters to his scaling/movement.

You've probably also noticed post rework, even after the nerf, Galio's become a big player. He can pull 30k damage in the same game he soaks 100k damage taken now.

As people learn how to play Urgot, he's becoming a serious pain now too.... Now that everyone figured out ALL his passive attacks can proc Frozen Mallet, engaging him has very few outs.... you either need a team fight or he owns the lane, and often the jungle around his lane.

I think bans are all about the elo you're in. Kha probably gets more bans at high elo than low, simply because he is the king of solo ambushes, far outstripping Eve, simply because of Duskblade's freedom to slaughter. Janna used to get the bans, but not anymore.

ElikainNov 4, 20171 votes

I'm an Eve main and you don't need openings for her. In fact, it's the opposite. In high ELO, Eve should be harder to play as people wouldn't leave many openings for her to attack while un low ELO, even a semi decent Eve player should be having a field day with newbies who don't want and can't counter her.

As far as i'm concerned, don't ban Eve. I get to play her a lot. And under the new runes, i can now even lane with her and she she's already a strong jungler, even without a smite. So imagine an Eve that gets to a level 6 on a lane and starts invis BS on an enemy Marksman with a CC on lane and a burst of an assassin. Pair this with some aggressive support (Brand, Zyra, Malz...) and you get an easy kill lane that once starts off, never goes down and the enemy keeps dying and dying.

Then this translates to her being strong as shit and ganking mid, controlling dragon and the enemy portion of the jungle that's close to the bot lane.

AzadetheNov 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm an Eve main and you don't need openings for her. In fact, it's the opposite. In high ELO, Eve should be harder to play as people wouldn't leave many openings for her to attack while un low ELO, even a semi decent Eve player should be having a field day with newbies who don't want and can't counter her.

As far as i'm concerned, don't ban Eve. I get to play her a lot. And under the new runes, i can now even lane with her and she she's already a strong jungler, even without a smite. So imagine an Eve that gets to a level 6 on a lane and starts invis BS on an enemy Marksman with a CC on lane and a burst of an assassin. Pair this with some aggressive support (Brand, Zyra, Malz...) and you get an easy kill lane that once starts off, never goes down and the enemy keeps dying and dying.

Then this translates to her being strong as shit and ganking mid, controlling dragon and the enemy portion of the jungle that's close to the bot lane.

I think you're seeing a difference in what i'm describing and how you're interpreting it.

In high elos, people are more protective in general. The 0/5 feed runs don't happen in lane. In other words, people all generally farm a lot, and death/kills don't get out of control. It becomes a contest of who CS's best. Eve who is on track with lane farmers gets more kills, because no one is hyper fed, and teams play better in coordination. If I gank bot in Diamond at level 4 vs Level 3 ADC/support, they are going to die. If I gank bot in Silver at level 4 vs level 3 ADC/Support, 90% of the time, even though gank is pinged, they don't even react. They will wait until after I've burnt a charm, done a strong engage, but am now running away with 40% hp, because my bot completely ignored the gank.

The failed gank wastes time, resources and potential XP.

And even when I start a Silver game 5/0, the very lanes I ganked and killed in, begin feeding. After I succeed in a level 6 double at bot, my bot proceeds to feed the other team 30 seconds later when I'm headed top and can do nothing about it.

What you read and are describing, is the ability to execute skills successfully. Yes. Higher elos will react to skills greater. But Low elo, while they don't react to skills greater, are easily fed, and your gank no longer is effective. You can land every skill and by the time you are on cooldown, Urgot or Cho are still 60% HP. The mid feeds an Annie 6/0, so ganking Annie is now a death sentence, and if Annie groups to push lanes, she's not only fed, she's protected, so you can't snipe her. If a Jinx is fed 7/0, she can just stand behind a 3 tank wall with a mage and she's pretty much immune to an Eve snipe. If you try to go in on her in her 5 man posse, you're dead. If your team feeds her a passive proc, she's going to catch you in a team fight and pop you like a bubble.

And, if you don't ban Jarvan, he's going to invade you pre 6 and make your farm hell, put you 2-3 levels behind, and snowball while you don't. He can just get around better, and snowball before eve can even try.

ElikainNov 4, 20171 votes

We've had some conversations about Eve in the past. The two of us, so i know where you're coming from. Even i've had games where i completely execute early ganks to perfection (without level 6) and then fall off hard later because the lanes i've given kills to (and were leading) failed to match the enemy team's strategy of early grouping to make up for the lack of gold and are not killing people left and right + taking objectives.

When you turn around in this game, all that you've done as an assassin starts to fade away and you being fed no longer matters. Eve can't push a lane, she can only stalk people and kill them one by one. If priority targets are not approachable, you have to either wait for that opportune moment to strike or just be forced to blow your load on the first target that engaged your team in the hopes you'd enough damage to weaken them severely and get a kill or let your team clean up.

In lower ELOs, this is the problem. Since Eve is just an assassin with no other things to do, when games become like this, you need to rely on your team to correctly make a basic counter-strategy and resist the enemy team as best as they can. That way, when they are preoccupied with poking left and right, you are able to strike from behind on unsuspecting enemies.

I didn't have any problems with Jarvan myself. He can be strong as shit to deal with for any champion (if he goes glass cannon) but he can also be a pain in the ass to deal with when being tanky. The trick i've used to fight against him is to let someone else eat his gank and damage so that i can charm him and make sure his ult turns himself into a sitting duck before he manages to one shot my poor teammate. That's why in those games i level my charm second.

Elise has been a problem for me. I think she is just overall more safer to use than Eve but doesn't share her assassin fantasy. Elise can take a few hits, can dish out respectable damage and (being a form swapper), doesn't have problems closing the gap and duking it out with someone. Eve's pretty fragile in this regard so you'd really want ideally to be able to blow up a target or chunk them pretty hard for them to back off. And melee range is a big no-no for her.

AzadetheNov 4, 20171 votes

I think the main QQ about Elise is her spiders can block her. Like you do with Jarvan, I generally let Elise attack someone else while I'm behind her. Then I have an easy shot at her sweet behind. If she manages to get her W off to get spiders to attack me, my E should wipe them. At which point it becomes a cat/mouse game.

My problem with Jarvan is twofold:

they always invade early and hard. I mean level 2 early, before Eve has a strong escape, and before she has stealth. Eve can't afford a hard pressed invade on the first 5-6 minutes of the game. And, when they play like that, the generally control your jungle with well placed pinks/wards, and know exactly where you are and there's not much you can do about it early.
They always arrive late to a fight so I've already blown my skills trying to assassinate an adc or support or mid. Especially annoying when I don't have Flash or Ult.

(I'm a little less afraid of Jarvan than I used to be, but the ones who invaded were helped by Xin's so that played a role too).

HaIlMonitorNov 5, 20171 votes

In Gold elo I just ban Ezreal. He is hard to duel early, and wrecks my laners because they never respect his damage. Urgot is another one in lower elo that shreds everyone right now.

JunkοNov 4, 20172 votes

This large text makes me glad that Riot doesn't listen to low elo for balance because you are basically saying assassins are OP even though they have been irrelevant since the Ardent meta started.

Succubús GFNov 4, 20171 votes

"low elo" boi you are p5 chill with the superiority complex [sg-lulu]

JunkοNov 5, 20171 votes

If you checked my account then you also saw I haven't played in forever. I was D3 (you can check on op.gg) and got demoted to Gold 1 over the months, which was awfully convenient since it allowed me to help a friend get Plat too. Was going to try get him higher but then we were both reminded of why we both barely play the game anymore ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not good enough to get Masters or Challenger, it's EUNE, and ranked rewards are basically the same for every tier above Gold, so I figured it's not worth bothering.

Rand0mH3r0XNov 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7OJi9FdM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-11-03T14:45:00.078+0000)

I'm just glad people are gonna find something else to permaban other than my boy Galio.

I like how people know you more for posting about hating every rework. And now you love every rework.

I'm wondering who changed, Riot, or you.

Malicious MetalNov 4, 20171 votes

What?

How am I known to hate every rework?

I haven't posted anything on disliking a rework since the first iteration of Morde's Juggernaut rework, and that was subsequently fixed.

Rand0mH3r0XNov 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7OJi9FdM,comment-id=000400030000,timestamp=2017-11-04T21:15:13.340+0000)

What?

How am I known to hate every rework?

I haven't posted anything on disliking a rework since the first iteration of Morde's Juggernaut rework, and that was subsequently fixed

A most popular feature would be helpful here.

You've literally been on a tiny step stool for almost a year straight, back before Morde's rework, and the months after. You criticized the following reworks consequentially as well.

I, for one, have reworks I don't like (Fiora). It's just strange to see you do a 180. Me, personally, I love the new Eve, but I hate the kit. If only Riot hadn't broken my heart with Fiora (I had all her skins at that point), I would get Tango Eve and French Maid Nid, but shit they rework Nidalee and Evelyn once a season.

QuephaNov 3, 201714 votes

CertainlyT designed her so it’s entirely possible he thinks it’s balanced for a champion that can’t be flashed away from to also have hard cc and a 100-0 combo.

General Esdeath Nov 4, 20172 votes

Yasuo can E through your minions and over walls via jungle camps. Seems like the same thing here.

ThilmerNov 4, 20173 votes

{quoted}

CertainlyT designed her so it’s entirely possible he thinks it’s balanced for a champion that can’t be flashed away from to also have hard cc and a 100-0 combo.

That guy haven't designed a balanced champion in his life.

Whenever Riot says "CertainlyT is designing a new champ", I'm all like "well, another overpowered thing that I would have to ban during two seasons until he/she gets nerfed".

I'm still having problems with Yasuo and his ridiculously overloaded kit, and Riot had to nerf Kalista to the ground because someone thougth that and ADC with a dash every 0,5 seconds won't be a problem....

Stars ShaperNov 3, 201712 votes

If she can be a medium/high range burst mage with high mobility then she also should die by simply staring too much at her.

ValuslupiNov 3, 201712 votes

If you pay attention to right after she uses a summoner spell, she gains three bubbles around her which are 3 empowered autos. You can tell bc every time she autos afterwards, she loses a bubble and when she picks up a summoner and uses it, the bubbles reappear. So that could be part of her burst. She also has a missile projectile that almost reminds me of Syndra W. I feel like she'l probably go Lich Bane to weave empowered autos between gap closing and cc abilities and further strengthen her bubble autos. Eit: My point was that could be where her burst comes from.

SzGamer227Nov 4, 20173 votes

A burst mage's burst being dependent on summoner spell casts does not sound viable. There's going to have to be big damage on her wonky skillshot for her to reliably deal damage, but it's impossible to know what the damage distribution on her kit is going to be like because enemies just fall over when she attacks them in the teaser.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 4, 20173 votes

If you notice in the trailer, whenever she uses a summoner spell or active item her laser bubbles things around her reset. So basically her damage is actually tied to spamming summoners/item actives she picks up.

So she is further incentivised to go in and dance around, picking up bubbles as they drop to cast whatever they hold and refresh her DPS spell.

FakeGravityNov 5, 20171 votes

now that you mention that dancing thing, and given how many active items supports have access to... why not support?

PennsNov 3, 20177 votes

Well Lissandra is a "burst mage" too with some mobility and cc on 3 spells

ThryaleNov 3, 20175 votes

I don't consider a weak 20% slow to be a CC worth mentioning tbh.

LichKing234Nov 3, 20174 votes

i think he means her W lock down and her R lock down

MrryZNov 3, 20175 votes

That's only two spells though.

Inigo MontoyotaNov 3, 20174 votes

That's more than 90% of the mages have

The ArchiveNov 3, 20174 votes

And she actually pays for that with trade-offs elsewhere.

Glory ln DeathNov 4, 20171 votes

So the 10% slow on red buff isn't worth mentioning, and you shouldn't even worry about it when you're getting ganked.

ThryaleNov 4, 20173 votes

red buff can perma slow you cuz of how frequent AA's are. any perma slow is a threat. liss can't perma slow you with her Q

PopcornBunniNov 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Well is a "burst mage" too with some mobility and cc on 3 spells

Lissandra is obstinately listed as a burst mage but has much more in common with battlemages like Ryze or Anivia . Her passive allows her to sustain in lane for a long period of time, she has short range, chain cc, and a self-defense option in her ult. She has poor AP ratios as well, with only her Q having scaling exceeding her base damage before 400 AP, and her W and R requiring 500+ AP for it. Meaning she benefits much more from CDR and item 3001 than the options typical of burst mages.

TheHappyReaperzNov 3, 20177 votes

Her only hard CC seems to be a skillshot bubble, that needs to pop first, that sleeps you after a period of time. I don't know what sleep does to you, so I don't know how good/bad that is.

Zone of EndlessNov 3, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Her only hard CC seems to be a skillshot bubble, that needs to pop first, that sleeps you after a period of time. I don't know what sleep does to you, so I don't know how good/bad that is.

Sleep is just like stun but interruptible. It's like Ana's sleep mechanic I guess? Last long but if you take damage you get out of it quicker. I could be 100% wrong though.

Skia AsteriNov 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zone of Endless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7OJi9FdM,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-11-03T17:27:12.793+0000)

Sleep is just like stun but interruptible. It's like Ana's sleep mechanic I guess? Last long but if you take damage you get out of it quicker. I could be 100% wrong though.

Seems like to me it gets interrupted by taking damage while 'drozy' rather than while 'asleep'.

JJI744Nov 3, 20176 votes

I hugely doubt this. The drowsy period is likely there for your teammates to realize they need to not be hitting that target if they want the CC to take hold. Otherwise you run into the problem of it being broken because there was an AA or spell in-flight when drowsy was appplied.

Dale WardarkNov 3, 20172 votes

A lot of MMOs (looking at The Lord of the Rings Online for my specific example) have a "daze" mechanic, with huge stun-like debilitation, but very high (usually guaranteed) break chances after x amount of seconds on damage or harm. I assume sleep will be similar to that.

Teemo Did 911Nov 3, 20174 votes

well , ahri looks pretty mobile with her R , but she still can 1 shot you

ShiznyteNov 3, 201713 votes

when she gets ahead maybe... her damage is quite low in comparison to assassin's. She needs to snowball hard or have a level advantage to actually kill people with her combo

Succubús GFNov 4, 20172 votes

Legit I was testing out builds and gunblade and lich are actually obnoxiously better than her usual route, even number wise, Gets kinda sad when lb and ahri, two of my top champions get forced into a boat where they need itemsthat weren't intended for them to actually do anything meaningful

ShiznyteNov 4, 20171 votes

I 100% agree with that build! its harder to play but much more damage if you can weave in the AA's.