Why does Shen have such low base and scaling HP?

Melledoneus··42 votes·4,898 views

(For a Tl;dr, all of the champions in each section have higher base HP and scaling HP than Shen, despite not being champions that need to soak up damage. Read the final super-mega-bolded statement for the best Tl;dr)

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions/Health

The reason why it feels more difficult to play Shen compared to other tanks (in my opinion, to each their own) is because he has such low bulk. With a base HP of 540 and a level 18 HP of 1985, it's quite pitiful how low his stats are post-rework. Even after the round of buffs he got almost a year ago. To put things into perspective, let me make some comparisons here:

To shorten this a bit, I'll just put the HP in this format: {{champion}} Level 1 HP/Level 18 HP

Now, this first group I like to call the "battle mages." These are the mages that get real close to dish out damage, and have a good amount of bulk to compensate for having to be that close. Here is a comparison of the the three bulkiest by base HP alone:

Shen 540/1985

>![Rumble](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Rumble.png) 589/2034
![AurelionSol](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/AurelionSol.png) 562/2126
![Morgana](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Morgana.png) 559.48/2089.5

So as a tank, Shen has naturally lower base HP than these three. I will admit his level 1 armor is higher than all 3 by a few points, but even at level 18 Morgana and Rumble have 5 higher base armor than Shen, a somewhat niche anti-auto attack champion. Let's keep going.
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Next we will move on to to some **bot lane ADCs** with questionably high base HP when comparing it to Shen, considering he is a tank by class. So, without further ado, let's get this over with:
>**![Shen](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Shen.png) 540/1985**

Xayah 545/1905 Tristana 542.76/1936.8 Lucian 554.4/1914.4 Kaisa 554.4/1914.4 Draven 557.76/1951.8

When comparing armor, Xayah, Kai'sa, and Lucian have 1 point less than Shen's base of 34, while Draven straight up has 1 more base armor than Shen at 35, with a whopping 91.1 armor at level 18 compared to Shen's 85. Tristana is not as gifted in the armor department as the other 4. Onwards!


Some people will argue that "oh, but these are closer ranged carries, they need that HP! That's not a fair comparison." To those skeptics in particular, I dedicate this next section to you: Ranged Mages! Here we go:

Shen 540/1985

>![Azir](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Azir.png) 552/2116
![Zoe](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Zoe.png) 560/2124
![Ryze](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Ryze.png) 570.48/2236.5

Now, now, I know Zoe is a burst mage and Ryze is a shorter ranged... combo mage(?) but since Ryze has refreshable shields and has considerably higher range than most melees we can safely called him ranged. Azir has a surprisingly higher amount of HP than Shen does, but when we take a look at his armor we can see it's also considerably lower than Shen's. Ryze is in a similar boat, and Zoe as well, except her scaling armor is decent and places her only at 5 less armor than Shen at level 18. Regardless, the bulk here is surprisingly high for a class that isn't expected to soak damage. And now on to the next section!
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Now here's a section that's my personal favorite. A class meant to be bursty, daring, fragile and mobile. A quick in and out to kill their target, or they pay the ultimate price. Yes, we are talking about **Assassins**, lads and lasses! This is a fun comparison to make:
>**![Shen](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Shen.png) 540/1985**

Zed 584/2029 Talon 588/2203 Rengar 585/2115 Nidalee 545/1990 Nocturne 582.8/2027.8 Khazix 572.8/2017.8 Shaco 587/2100 Kayn 585/2030 Katarina 602/2200 Kassadin 576/2106 Fizz 570/2236 Akali 593/2123 Ekko 585/2030 Evelynn 572/2000

Now, I know this is a lot of champions, some you weren't expecting to see. One is Ekko. He's a slayer, so we can just cut the crap and call him an assassin. Second is Nidalee. Nidalee is an assassin, despite how she's played in ARAM, get over it. Now, it's quite obvious that these champions have quite a bit more bulk than Shen, a tank, does. With the exception of Nidalee, most of these champions would make considerably better tanks with how their base HP values are.

Zed, Talon, Katarina, Shaco, Nidalee, and Akali all have lower base armor at level 1 than Shen, but their values far surpass his by level 18. Rengar has an identical armor curve to Shen, in the meantime. However, Kha'Zix (with a base of 36 base armor and 87 at level 18), Nocturne (with a base of 36 and an impressive 95.5 level 18 armor stat), Evelynn (with a base of 37 armor and a bulky 96.5 armor at level 18), and Kayn (with a whopping 38 base armor and 94.1 armor at level 18) surpass even our resident top lane(?) tank ninja. Kassadin, Fizz, and Ekko have slightly lower armor stats than Shen, nothing considerably lower than our other comparisons. Excelcior, to the next batch of champions!


Now at this point, some would still be skeptical. "Shen has a refreshable shield, that's why his base HP is low." Well, while I do acknowledge that Shen's shield scales off HP (we'll cover that aspect some other time), there are quite a few champions with more bulk that have similar, if not better shields. Let's look at our shielded scrappers! Let's compare:

Shen 540/1985

>![Riven](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Riven.png) 558.48/2020.5
![LeeSin](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/LeeSin.png) 570.8/2015.8
![Diana](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Diana.png) 594/2209
![Camille](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Camille.png) 575.6/2020.6

All of these champions have significant self-shielding capabilities, too. Riven, Lee Sin and Diana all have very slightly less base armor than Shen at level 1, but far surpass him by level 18. Camille, on the other hand, has 1 whole armor stat higher than Shen at level 1 and by level 18 far outclasses his 85 armor with a terrifying 99.6 base armor. Not to mention Lee's shield can have lifesteal stacked on top of it in the same ability, Riven's shield scales off AD, Camille's shield is automatically adaptive, and Diana's shield scales off AP, deals damage to close enemies, and when the three orbs detonate the shield refreshes. Now, let's move on to the next section of champions that I should probably announce here but whatever.
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Here I will start listing oddities and explaining why, by the logic of Shen having his W to block autos (and thus having less bulk to compensate), these champions should not have higher HP either. ***Keep in mind that these are not my arguments, but I am using other peoples' logic.*** Here we go:
>**![Shen](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Shen.png) 540/1985**

Aatrox (580/2025) - As a champion with a guardian angel for a passive, his base HP should be lower because it gives him significantly more life. Also, his sustain should justify him having less HP to compensate for such a powerful innate mechanic. Chogath (574.4/1934.4) - As a champion who can stack HP to terrifying degrees much faster than Sion can, and infinitely, Cho'gath should have a lot less HP to begin with to even out that power curve. Also, his lane sustain and the HP scaling damages on his ultimate and E should force him to be punishable early, so lower HP amounts are justified. Fiora (550/1995) - Lane sustain, riposte, and just overall mobility should not allow her to have so much bulk. Shen pays for having nullification abilities with his HP, why can't she? Graves (551.12/1979.1) - He's bursty and has a resistance stacking mechanic, and he's very damage oriented. Why should his HP be so high when he already has mechanics in place to negate damage? Irelia (607.2/137.2) - Mobile, has sustain, and has a unique mechanic refresh on her Q, what justifies her being so tanky? Jayce (576/2191) - He's super ranged, has two sets of abilities, and has tons of utility and CC. Why is he so bulky? Kayle (586/2371) - She's ranged and has a heal, and she has a very powerful ultimate. She should not be allowed to have so much access to large amounts of HP, especially with how high her level 18 amount is. MasterYi (598.56/2162.6) - Invulnerability on Q that also damages, a % damage mitigation on his W, true damage autos, a slow-nullifying ultimate... the sheer amount of defensive utility here does not justify him having so much HP. Sion (542.64/1783.6) - For a champion with an infinite stacking mechanic for HP, he starts off with quite a bit of base HP, doesn't he? Taric (575/2105) - Constant heals and refreshes, a %HP spammable shield that also hits an ally and grants an armor buff? An AoE invincibility for an ultimate? Multi-pronged CC? Dang, better hit those HP numbers, that's not fair. Tryndamere (625.64/2291.6) - Why the hell would a champion who doesn't care what his HP is for 5 seconds care about high base HP?

#Now, enough nitpicking. Let's ask the real question here: Why does Shen have the base and scaling HP of Jhin and Kindred?

The only tank in the game with lower HP values than him is Sion, who has an even higher base HP amount than Shen at level 1, and has an infinite HP stacking mechanic that more than makes up for that deficit in his HP scaling. I understand Shen has 2 pieces of utility (1.75 second dodge zone and a global shield/teleport) but does that really justify how low his HP is?

I'd like to propose we increase Shen's HP values to be at least somewhat on part with melee assassins, if not with tanks. That way we can feel like we're actually playing a tank instead of some niche, flimsy fighter whose one good matchup in top lane now beats him easily (thanks Riot for buffing Riven's animation cancelling).

#Buff Shen's base and scaling HP please. I want to play a tank again, not this flimsy mess. Thank you.

118 Comments

Who Fed Ru28 votes

Same reason Yasuo has low base stats.

They have passive shields that make them feel more tankier and help them in trades. Giving them same base stats as any other champion would basically mean letting them free win every trade.

The important point here is that these shields are their passive, they don't have to give up mana or an important ability cooldown to use it in a trade, and are balanced around that.

Melledoneus12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7KiB20KZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-03-13T23:03:26.417+0000) The important point here is that these shields are their passive, they don't have to give up mana or an important ability cooldown to use it in a trade, and are balanced around that.

I would disagree here because Shen's shield is triggered by using an ability. And all of his abilities have quite long cooldowns early on and eat up a lot of his energy bar. Not to mention the delay on all of his abilities, meaning his shield is not on-demand or instant.

I would hardly call a comparison to Yasuo fair when he doesn't have to cast anything to get a shield, although I will say the comparison is also not as great because the shield does not work in the same way (Yasuo's shield works as an external health bar against non-turrets and non-minions while Shen's is something he needs to cast one of his abilities to access, meaning Shen loses an ability for a little while just to access his shield).

You had a fair point, but unfortunately Yasuo and Shen are far too different with their passive shields to make the comparison as if they were parallel. However, I agree that Shen should not have the same base stats as somebody like Dr. Mundo or Garen whose stats are their main attraction. However, I would like at least for his HP to not be so pitiful as to be comparable to a champion like Kindred or Jhin, both of whom are squishy, almost purely offensive marksmen.

Who Fed Ru8 votes

That's true too, but I compared them just for the concept that their shields help a lot in quick trades, and that's why their base stats are balanced around that. Even if Shen needs to use a ability, he still gets a shield on top of the ability that will help him in his trade.

Even other champions like Riven that have some shield in their kits that helps in their trades have some compensation for that. In Rivens case it isn't her base health, but her health regeneration. She has basically no natural way to heal back up a lost trade if she doesn't use her shield right in her trades.

Generally speaking, champions that have shields that help in their trades usually have weaker base stats or something else to compensate for it. Usually it's either base stats or simply the fact that the shield ability costs mana and takes up an active ability slot. Passive or resourceless shields are usually balanced by giving the champions weaker base stats.

Melledoneus4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7KiB20KZ,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-03-13T23:20:10.776+0000)

That's true too, but I compared them just for the concept that their shields help a lot in quick trades, and that's why their base stats are balanced around that.

Understandable. However, as much as I hate to be that guy, Yasuo's shield is built more to shrug off poke and soften initial burst and Shen's shield is meant to be a responsive/predictive shield, at most times a shield to mitigate the auto attack damage from taunt or to help him survive longer fights when he lands his abilities and gets the refresh.

Even other champions like Riven that have some shield in their kits that helps in their trades have some compensation for that. In Rivens case it isn't her base health, but her health regeneration. She has basically no natural way to heal back up a lost trade if she doesn't use her shield right in her trades.

Generally speaking, champions that have shields that help in their trades usually have weaker base stats or something else to compensate for it. Usually it's either base stats or simply the fact that the shield ability costs mana and takes up an active ability slot. Passive or resourceless shields are usually balanced by giving the champions weaker base stats.

I actually completely agree with you here, by principle. Passive defensive mechanics should take up part of a champion's power budget, and take away from their stats in some way. However, despite that, I disagree with the extent to which Shen has lowered base stats. Upon his re-release, he had less armor at all stages of the game than Anivia and less scaling HP than Sona. Now he has been buffed a bit, but he's still extremely squishy. I know he is expected to build HP throughout the course of the game, but compared to other performing tanks he is just crippled with low base stats, higher cooldowns, lower overall base damage, and less reliable/powerful CC in exchange for a passive shield that is not powerful, long-lasting, or reliable.

This used to be offset by his ultimate being a powerful shielding ability, which was also nerfed to the ground and placed at a niche of "ult at 40% HP, run Revitalize, and pray it's enough."

To me, it just seems that all these specific balancing rules were exerted much more heavily on Shen than other champions of similar caliber (Aatrox, Maokai, Malphite, etc.). I'd like to know your thoughts on this, too, if you wouldn't mind sharing.

Who Fed Ru5 votes

I think they gave him the bad base stats because of power budged reasons, and probably ended up giving him worse stats than other tank champions so they don't have to take power away from his kit. They probably did it like that when they created him and never changed this way of balancing him. I think it's also because his ult takes up so much of his power budged because he is able to shield an ally from across the map and still keep teleport. Especially in coordinated play his ult can be a gamechanger.

So it's probably not only because of his passive shield that helps him in trades, but also because of his ult that they gave him bad base stats for a tank. Also, there is his W that can deny autoattacks and is very good against basic attackers.

So I guess the combination of his passive shield and W, that are great in trades and in fights against basic attackers, plus his Ult that takes up a lot of his power budged is the reason why he has such bad base stats in comparison to other champs.

But maybe a base stat buff would still not be a bad idea, because the extent he has less is really extreme. But the concept is that they probably did it like that cause he already has a very strong kit for a tank, and with base stats the same level of a tank he would end up too tanky.

flibitydoo3 votes

You seem to undervalue that shield by quite a bit

old shen could w like once every 5-10 seconds which means it's up for every trade, and if you are laning against a lane bully, you could very much walk in, shield up, get that last hit, walk out. Current shen can do something similar with his Q+shield passive (where every time you want to last hit, even against a ranged lane bully, you can shield up and go in). The window you get to play with is so frequent that it genuinely makes his laning actually feel safe, especially when you factor in the OTHER defensive tool aka spirit's refuge giving the dodge from autos for a measly 40 energy.

And like you say he has high energy costs, but I him running out of energy to not be the case. Like clearing the jungle as jungle shen you do not ever have to wait for energy to use your Q to clear a jungle camp and you can do that juicy % health damage on virtually every single auto attack by just pressing Q off cooldown. Sure if you cast Q alone, and then do nothing you waste a bunch of energy. But if you are autoing something, you get back energy (I think it's off his E passive) and it takes like 4 seconds to auto so typically by the time you've finished those autos you will have regen'd most of that energy from both passive energy regen and the auto attacking energy regen. And yeah in the lane, falling back for a few seconds will typically be sufficient in keeping your energy up (because let's face it you aren't going to be standing in enemy-hitting-you-range all the time, that's a silly way to lane).

Also, it's really nice playing shen top and you have those idiot toplaners that try to punish you by pushing you to your tower and you just pick up the EZ caster minions under tower with your 3 enhanced Q autos. It's so safe and nice.

Yasuo's shield on the other hand kind of feels like it takes 15+ seconds to replenish. Maybe i don't walk around enough in lane and it's faster, but to me it's like 15+ seconds to recharge. It typically blocks about one autos worth of damage because of how small it is and is probably there so he doesn't just get auto'd to death by orianna who is ranged. It's probably there as an afterthought to letting him lane mid the same way akali or fizz's passives help them out with surviving laning phase.

Some other point of comparison for Shen's base stats, is soraka, who has the lowest health regen in the game. That's because she has a lot of regen in her kit (and they obviously want to avoid her stacking %scaling health regen stat). So the part where her health regen is so low makes sense since they gave her a bunch of cheap self healing on her Q. Another example would be miss fortune. She has among the lowest base AD in the game. She also has the lowest AD growth in the game at a whopping 1 point of AD per level (soon to be buffed to 2 points). Most champs get like 3 AD per level (such as darius or riven). I think mordekaiser who is a juggernaut gains 5. 5 per level. And miss fortune at level 18 will have gained like 18 AD versus morde at level 18 who got like 90 AD. But MF having that low base AD makes sense since she has love taps innate passive adding a big % of her AD to her autos, which is why in lane when she right clicks you occasionally for harass it hurts.

rtbf906614562 votes

energy regens at a rate of 10 energy per second. his q cost 160 at level 1 and taunt cost half of his energy pool roughly (around 190) at level one.

given you q to go in for a last hit, using it solely for the shield, you're getting one minion every 10 seconds for free. meanwhile, the likes of other sustain laners such as maokai or mundo gets them for free with poke, or walks up and shrugs the poke with massive HP regen in passive. Yasuo or riven like you said, have the option to engage, shen can't do that once he Q's since his damage is tied up in his attack speed empowered auto attacks (the type where you pull your spirit blade through your opponent) lastly, shielding the poke doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a minion for free. this is toplane. everyone has some form of dash or engage and like I've said prior, since you've lost out on a good chunk of your damage you risk being engaged on and losing.

let's look at your stat comparisons again: Soraka gets sustain from landing her Q, this is a design decision made to not make her a backline healbot, but to encourage interaction with the enemy laners (no seriously, how obnoxious do you think raka standing in the backline healing someone for 400 HP every two seconds is) MissFortune has the lowest AD growth rate, but she's giving this up for SCALING. her passive deals bonus damage of (50-100% total AD) on the first auto attack she lands, this applies to her Q as well, so while any ad can build upwards of 300 AD, only she can do a critical + passive + duskblade + shiv + damage from q from a relatively safe distance without risking anything.

flibitydoo1 votes

ummm thank you for re-stating what I already stated regarding soraka and MF??? Yes, just like shen there are others that no one talks about (or complains about) that have inherently bad base stats that are made up for in their kits. I guess congratulations on reading what I wrote in my previous comment and showcasing your ability to paraphrase word for word what I said? I'm going to assume that's how you say "I understand your concept".

Also you're not getting one last hit when you go in, you can easily go for 2-3 (hell, the first minion wave is specifically set up so all 3 minions get low at the same time). And his Q is like 140 energy (and I think it scales down with level, which matters since he maxes it first), and if you've ever played shen (which I really hope this is true given your username), you'd know that shen's energy costs typically aren't an issue toplane or in the jungle. You can very much last hit every minion with your Q empowered autos and not run out. Oh and you also have your W. That's also a tool. Shen definitely has engage, that is much better than riven or yasuo and can even extend it further by using flash the same way vi or gragas can with theirs. And this is a bit personal experiences here, but the attackspeed bonus (and also the additional 1% damage) on your Q for passing through the spirit blade barely makes a difference. It's nice, and it's a point of skill that differentiates a new shen player from a veteran, but it is in no way shape or form what you need to succeed. I'd honestly say the only real value from passing through the blade to me, is the "enemy get's slowed while walking away from you" part since that helps you stick to people and beat them down. And I'm not certain what you meant by the lastly line, in the "you just lost your damage". In the context of laning, you just pressed Q and walked up. you just gained damage on autos. If someone wants to fight you they have to answer to your autos and your shield before they can do anything to your healthbar. Most players will hold off until the shield is gone before going in; this is called playing around cooldowns and it's kind of a core part of playing league of legends as a whole. And even with all that your E is also a free-cast dash. it's not like yasuo or xin that can only go to enemies, you can freely use it like rakan's w to run away. So even against champs with engage you have safety.

But none of this matters, I don't need to explain shen's kit to you or how he lanes. You probably already know all of this. But the issue of in the OP of "shen's base stats aren't very high" doesn't matter to him since his kit is designed to compensate. The same as many other champs I (and you) have described.

rtbf906614562 votes

shen. has. no. innate. tankiness. in. his. kit. outside. of. his. tiny. shield.

you go in for cs: trundle outtrades you cuz he has ad from chomp, chogath has better damage on his empowered auto, maokai heals for free, malphite lowers your AS by half, darius heals from q and does DOT, gnar, jayce, vayne,mundo pokes you and all you have to deal with that is your tiny shield.

soraka and mf has ways to negate their weaknesses, but shen doesn't have that innately. by being good at mf or soraka you can offset their weaknesses but not with shen.

RamRanchDressing1 votes

I wouldn't cite Trundle as an example since his whole reason for existing is to counter tanks.

rtbf906614561 votes

doesn't matter, point is, toplaners will outtrade trundle

Daddy Braum20 votes

woah a post about a champ that isnt just complaining but is actually well thought out and researched am i still on the league of legends borards?

revliledpembroke2 votes

Horatio Hornblower gif, huh?

I really like that actor and I'm surprised he hasn't gotten a lot more work.

MkShenGreatAgain2 votes

His base stats have literally always been garbage and I don't know why, up til season 5 he didn't even have scaling MR per level.

Muten Shensei10 votes

Fun Fact: Shen's role is Tank (and Tank only) on the wiki.

I guess RIOT really really hates the fact that he can teleport on his teammates anywhere on the map... then instantly die xD (jk...sometimes). I've also created a thread on how armor is pretty much useless with the amount of shred adc's have nowadays. Building like one MR item (adaptive helm for example) can be enough to shutdown most of a full build mage's damage, but building like 6 armor items can't even do justice against a Twitch with whisper, crit, etc etc..

I know this sounds extremely wrong but I've had more lucky playing 45 cdr rush build on Shen / if I'm fed playing AP Shen w/ some health items (for shits and giggles) than playing tank a lot of times. Hell I got mid the other day, and since it was draft, I played Shen mid. The enemy team's Orianna couldn't do a smack thing about me. I got so fed, I was doing more damage than my entire team with just one ap item (Nashors) and health / cdr items.

Couple games ago, we went up against a heavy adc comp vs our tanky / 1-2 carry comp. Guess who won? The adc's shredded through our front line like a joke, and the back line couldn't even take the time to do any good.

Shen definitely needs a buff, but I think that there needs to be some new meta Tank items / nerfs to some adc items to help us sustain late game. Late game adc vs tank is a complete joke .. the only front line there is at that point is who ever has the better / faster cc mechanics.

-Muten Shensei Shen

Melledoneus4 votes

I was thinking of playing crit Shen with my duo soon myself, and maybe even trying a legitimate AP Shen support build.

Because good god he is hardly playable in the top lane these days if you want to actually win.

Muten Shensei2 votes

{quoted}

I was thinking of playing crit Shen with my duo soon myself, and maybe even trying a legitimate AP Shen support build.

Because good god he is hardly playable in the top lane these days if you want to actually win.

5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 (+ 4 / 4.5 / 5 / 5.5 / 6% (+ 2% per 100 AP) of target's maximum health) ... That 2% when you empower your Q, will give you 400+AP With Nashor's Alone - Ninja AP Tank FTW. You only find that written in the wiki, and people ignore it (and complain, saying that ap is bad for Shen, when in fact is scales pretty dang high). Get two more items with 10%CDR, and last two Tank + Boots = Super Q Spamming, Infinite Passive Shield Pushing Shen Killing Machine!! Been Theorycrafting secret builds for him for ages now (months <.< ... but who's counting).

Teridax6810 votes

I think part of the problem isn't simply that Shen has a refreshable shield, but also that his W gives him total autoattack immunity for a short duration. By contrast, the other mentioned champions have less active protection overall. This, I think, to me makes some amount of sense, because Shen is supposed to be a ninja, and so should be relying more on actively blocking or dodging enemy attacks than just eating them up.

However, that argument only goes so far, because at the end of the day Shen is still far too squishy compared to most other tanks. He has vastly more average deaths than the typical top laner, while dealing only a tiny fraction of a top laner's average damage. Shen isn't simply made squishy because of his ninja theme, but also because his personal durability has been used as a balance lever to counter the tremendous utility he can output. While that could be justifiable, the problem is that much of this utility only really shines in pro play: Shen's AA block, for example, can also apply to allies as well as himself, an effect that has only minimal impact in solo queue, but that has major repercussions among more organized teams. Similarly, his ult is infamous for causing a vast discrepancy in performance between his pro and standard usage, a problem his ult nerfs didn't really help with. While some of this utility should definitely stay (his ult in particular creates amazing moments), he could nonetheless significantly benefit from having some other aspects of his utility, and general post-rework playstyle, pared down in exchange for better survivability.

As a side note, I think part of the issue isn't just that Shen's base defenses are too low (they objectively are, though, as they suck even compared to squishy champions), but that the base defenses of many fighters and tanks are too high. Riot and many players have complained repeatedly, even after the Tank Update, that tanks don't really have the highest skill ceiling around, and part of the problem comes from the fact that most of their defenses come from their raw stats, rather than their active defenses. In addition, tanky items have repeatedly been abused by champions who aren't at all meant to build tanky, simply because the raw defenses they offer are just that good. To me, all of this points towards a need for tanks and fighters to place much greater emphasis on their ability to actively tank damage, instead of resisting it passively: in practice, this should translate to tanks and fighters receiving reductions to their base health and resists, in exchange for health and resist scalings on their abilities, namely their defenses (or better scalings for those who have them already), and more power placed on those defenses as a result. Perhaps nerfing their base damage and adding weak health/resist scalings instead, so that the numbers end up being the same, could also answer the problem of tanks dealing too much base damage at all times, especially in the early stages of the game.

Back to Shen, though, my personal dream list of changes to him would include the following:

  • Removing his floating sword and reworking his other abilities accordingly. Shen already has four other targets on the map to watch over at all times; he does not need to have to constantly track an additional made-up object around him on top of that.
  • Buffing his personal defenses and reworking his basic abilities to benefit him exclusively. Shen does not need that much utility in the laning phase, even if he should be able to support his team post-6. This should mean keeping his taunt, but otherwise cutting out a portion of his allied utility, especially the AoE protection on his W.
  • Reworking his ult so that Shen himself becomes the shield. If Shen forces himself to tank in his ally's stead, instead of adding yet another shield, this would not only add a whole new layer of meaningful risks and tradeoffs (Shen would have to potentially sacrifice himself to protect his target, and there'd be a valid reason for the enemy to try to break the shield), but would also force Shen himself to require strong personal durabliity to make it work. Effectively, it would sort of force Riot's hand in giving him better base stats, because he'd be producing less utility out of thin air, and it would be much clearer that he'd need strong personal survivability to function.
Cowgirl Ed2 votes

very nice suggestions, upvote this

BobaFlautist9 votes

To make up for his powerful tank steroids of "2.5s shield" and "1.75s of dodging auto attacks".

What, four seconds total duration of all tank steroids is perfectly reasonable. What do you mean you want to survive more than four seconds?

MadViking1 votes

{quoted}

To make up for his powerful tank steroids of "2.5s shield" and "1.75s of dodging auto attacks".

What, four seconds total duration of all tank steroids is perfectly reasonable. What do you mean you want to survive more than four seconds?

You do make a good point.

Jerry SeinfeId5 votes

This isn't shen. shen died some time ago.

######bring back vorpal blade

BroLane2 votes

I was gonna say that Shen was intended to be a fighter and so it's tolerable, but then I checked, and I'm not gonna put my foot in my mouth. I agree 100%.

Melledoneus3 votes

People often argue to me that Shen has only one hard CC and is not a tank, and it's hard to prove them wrong there. :/

AS I LAY FEEDING2 votes

Shen was supposed to be a antitank duelist tank, but other tanks like cho'gath and maokai AA shen to death.

Ahristocats1 votes

You do realise that he's the only tank that has a very good shield on like 4 sec cd right?

Let's take a look at the base HP of an other tank that has a shield, nautilus

HEALTH 576.5 – 2038.5

Oh there seem to be something

Don't think that Base stats are made randomly Shen is indeed tanky, no matter what his base hp is, he doesn't need to be tankier

rtbf906614563 votes

but the thing is though, it's only up every 10 seconds while literally everyone else can spam shield on top of themselves all the time, take a look at galio: Galio P: mini aoe lichbane Q: ranged poke that does %max HP W: dmg reduction and aoe taunt, free magic damage shield E: dash, knockup R: dmg reduction on target, AOE knockup in area that has 0.5 second channel and 1 second travel time (shen channels for 3 seconds)

base stat wise, galio is also superior to shen, while getting %dmg reduction and an easier to lane taunt, scaling from armor items, the ability to buy IBG, frozen heart or say abyssal, which shen cannot unless he wants to be less gold efficient.

shen's shield is worth 50-101(+14% bonus HP), which caps around at 400 HP late game, but guess what?

Janna Lulu Karma Riven Malphite Rumble Sion Vi Viktor Yasuo Camille Blitzcrank all get a fairly comparable shield, which scales better than %max hp...

GodJormungandr1 votes

Tristana 542.76/1936.8 Lucian 554.4/1914.4 Kaisa 554.4/1914.4 Draven 557.76/1951.8

All Adcs should have low base hp and low scaling, all they need to do is Right click


Some people will argue that &quot;oh, but these are closer ranged carries, they need that HP! That&#039;s not a fair comparison.&quot; To those skeptics in particular, I dedicate this next section to you: Ranged Mages! Here we go:

![Zoe](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Zoe.png) 560/2124
![Ryze](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Ryze.png) 570.48/2236.5

Aurelion sol is bullied by melees, hp is a must on him but other mages shouldn't have high base hp or scaling tbh


Now here&#039;s a section that&#039;s my personal favorite. A class meant to be bursty, daring, fragile and mobile. A quick in and out to kill their target, or they pay the ultimate price. Yes, we are talking about Assassins, lads and lasses! This is a fun comparison to make:

![Talon](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Talon.png) 588/2203
![Rengar](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Rengar.png) 585/2115
![Nidalee](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Nidalee.png) 545/1990
![Nocturne](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Nocturne.png) 582.8/2027.8
![Khazix](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Khazix.png) 572.8/2017.8
![Shaco](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Shaco.png) 587/2100
![Kayn](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Kayn.png) 585/2030
![Katarina](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Katarina.png) 602/2200
![Kassadin](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Kassadin.png) 576/2106
![Fizz](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Fizz.png) 570/2236
![Akali](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Akali.png) 593/2123
![Ekko](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Ekko.png) 585/2030
![Evelynn](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Evelynn.png) 572/2000

Assassins should be fairly under 1750 in end game, all they do is 1 shotting, i don't understand why Riot want's them to be solid to kill

![LeeSin](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/LeeSin.png) 570.8/2015.8
![Diana](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Diana.png) 594/2209
![Camille](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Camille.png) 575.6/2020.6

These guys are fighters... they need the hp, they should even toughen their hp scaling up to be fair...

![Chogath](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Chogath.png) (574.4/1934.4) - As a champion who can stack HP to terrifying degrees much faster than Sion can, and infinitely, Cho&amp;#039;gath should have a lot less HP to begin with to even out that power curve. Also, his lane sustain and the HP scaling damages on his ultimate and E should force him to be punishable early, so lower HP amounts are justified.
![Fiora](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Fiora.png) (550/1995) - Lane sustain, riposte, and just overall mobility should not allow her to have so much bulk. Shen pays for having nullification abilities with his HP, why can&amp;#039;t she?
![Graves](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Graves.png) (551.12/1979.1) - He&amp;#039;s bursty and has a resistance stacking mechanic, and he&amp;#039;s very damage oriented. Why should his HP be so high when he already has mechanics in place to negate damage?
![Irelia](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Irelia.png) (607.2/137.2) - Mobile, has sustain, and has a unique mechanic refresh on her Q, what justifies her being so tanky?
![Jayce](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Jayce.png) (576/2191) - He&amp;#039;s super ranged, has two sets of abilities, and has tons of utility and CC. Why is he so bulky?
![Kayle](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Kayle.png) (586/2371) - She&amp;#039;s ranged and has a heal, and she has a very powerful ultimate. She should not be allowed to have so much access to large amounts of HP, especially with how high her level 18 amount is.
![MasterYi](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/MasterYi.png) (598.56/2162.6) - Invulnerability on Q that also damages, a % damage mitigation on his W, true damage autos, a slow-nullifying ultimate... the sheer amount of defensive utility here does not justify him having so much HP. 
![Sion](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Sion.png) (542.64/1783.6) - For a champion with an infinite stacking mechanic for HP, he starts off with quite a bit of base HP, doesn&amp;#039;t he?
![Taric](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Taric.png) (575/2105) - Constant heals and refreshes, a %HP spammable shield that also hits an ally and grants an armor buff? An AoE invincibility for an ultimate? Multi-pronged CC? Dang, better hit those HP numbers, that&amp;#039;s not fair.
![Tryndamere](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Tryndamere.png) (625.64/2291.6) - Why the hell would a champion who doesn&amp;#039;t care what his HP is for 5 seconds care about high base HP?

#Now, enough nitpicking. Let&amp;#039;s ask the real question here: Why does ![Shen](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Shen.png) have the base and scaling HP of ![Jhin](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Jhin.png) and ![Kindred](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Kindred.png)?

The only tank in the game with lower HP values than him is Sion, who has an even higher base HP amount than Shen at level 1, and has an infinite HP stacking mechanic that more than makes up for that deficit in his HP scaling. I understand Shen has 2 pieces of utility (1.75 second dodge zone and a global shield/teleport) but does that really justify how low his HP is?

I&amp;#039;d like to propose we increase Shen&amp;#039;s HP values to be at least somewhat on part with melee assassins, if not with tanks. That way we can feel like we&amp;#039;re actually playing a tank instead of some niche, flimsy fighter whose one good matchup in top lane now beats him easily (thanks Riot for buffing Riven&amp;#039;s animation cancelling). 

#Buff Shen&amp;#039;s base and scaling HP please. I want to play a tank again, not this flimsy mess. Thank you.

Chogath Chogath should never be nerfed, he is meant to be a vanguard, scalings and defensive are all a must. Tryndamere Tryndamere is a berserker, melee and no crowd control... Hp is recomended on him otherwise he won't be able to use his ultimate if he gets 1- 2 shotted so i strongly disagree with your arguments against cho'gath and tryndamere. The other fighters you mentioned, yea they need a tone down for their scaling because they got a lot of diving abilities, EX fiora got a crazy sustain power, her parry is very broken and her ultimate + passive kills tanks... i don't know why she needs hp

Overall Shen is a warden, wardens are peelers, they are not supposed to be the bulky tank fighters like Vanguards, Chogath is a vanguard, ofcourse he gotta have so much scaling... Shen got his W, his Taunt and he got an ultimate which gives a very interesting shield and his Q takes down all targets, he is pretty strong Warden so nope.

rtbf906614562 votes

you taunt and you die though, that's how squishy shen is right now. being a warden with taunt should give him some form of %dmg reduction or more HP like rammus or galio, which shen has neither innately

GodJormungandr1 votes

Shen = item 3748 item 3110 item 3143 item 3083 item 3194 item 3111 I never had such an issue with dying tbh on Shen. one good taunt against enemy team and you'll increase your winning chance by so much. With this build you will never have any issues on Shen. 40% CDR Tenacity in So much Defensive stats A lot of hp A nice extra damage from Titanic with his Q to take down targets if not peeling

rtbf906614562 votes

frozen heart is also very gold ineffcient though

GodJormungandr1 votes

But it's very worth it, gives you maximum CDR of 40%! with having warmong + adaption helmet, gives you 20% attack speed reduction for your teammates in teamfight [ which is what wardens have to do ] peeling is all you need and frozen heart is a very strong item for wardens. Just have a look at this combo of my build and it's stats for late game: item 3110 item 3143 = 160 bonus armor + 450 Health + 35% attack speed reduction + 20% CDR item 3194 item 3111 = 350 bonus Health + 80 magic resist + 10% CDR item 3748 item 3083 = 1250 bonus Health + 40 attack damage +10% CDR Also add him an Iron Elixir in late game item 2138 Overall you'll have total stats of:

  1. 4335 Health
  2. 151 Base Attack
  3. 40% CDR!
  4. 134 Magic Resist
  5. 245 Armor
  6. 385 movement speed
  7. 85.2 Health regen
  8. 35% attack speed reduction against enemies to you and 20% for your team
  9. Enough on hit damage procs with his Q and Titanic Hydra
  10. Over 50% Tenacity
  11. Extra tanky against Magc due to Adaption helmet while you taunt and W [nothing will hurt you]

Is this lacking anything ? Shen is a MONSTER in late game with this build path i gave you, you also have your ultimate and your W makes you extremely good peeler in teamfights and very tanky at the same time!

rtbf906614561 votes

the question then becomes why play shen over galio? he can make better use of stats, and does everything shen does if not better

GodJormungandr2 votes

Well that's why let me list you few things between Galio and Shen

Shen:

  1. 2 seconds anti Autos Block for yourself and teammates with your W
  2. Very powerful shield to save your ally from being executed by true damage or a strong bruiser damage
  3. powerful taunt and easy to land
  4. Decent damage in melee combat with your Q

Galio:

  1. House of Crowd Controls
  2. Decent damage late game
  3. So much % damage reductions from W and Ultimate
  4. Bigger Taunt but harder especially that you need 2 seconds charging for the best taunt

So if you compare both to me, They are both wardens, both have a great utility for peeling, but honestly there is no way to say Galio better than Shen at all. Shen utility of peeling can be much better than galio's while galio's utlity of peeling can be better than shen so it all depends on the match-ups Can't really say any is better.

rtbf906614562 votes

galio's taunt is easier to land, because it's a circular AOE skillshot around himself, and he has fairly quick casting dash, meanwhile if shen misses his taunt that's half his energy bar and gapcloser gone, meaning he's useless in that teamfight, galio miss his combo, he spams q on their back line because frozen heart means he'll never go oom.

galio's ultimate gives a huge knockup and % damage reduction: it's better used on medium health targets for peel, or assassins or other engage champions for a relatively free knockup lockdown. meanwhile she's ultimate is largely wasted unless he ults a low HP target (you're losing up to 300 shield by not waiting till they're very low)

galio is just strictly better in most regards

GodJormungandr1 votes

Well Shen gives you a shield and W that blocks Auto attacks, in my opinion that's more useful for peeling, Galio has more utlity for CC and damage, Shen has more utlity for Peeling and keeping you alive. Overall no one is better.

Galio uses his Ultimate on a diver champion Shen uses his Ultimate on Carries to protect them from dying or being locked down Any reason Galio is better? they are both good champions and both are interesting

rtbf906614562 votes

enemy team engages on your team, they eat a justice punch and are taunted for a while, easy to land taunt and tornado. shen NEEDS to land his taunt, as if he misses, that's half of his energy gone, and almost every single assassin relies on doing damage with abilities, not auto attacks, which renders shen's w useless, and if they are auto attack focused like jax or irelia, why not play galio for an easier taunt? dodge zone lasts only 1,75 seconds, and the bruisers who auto attack almost always have some form of CC or survivability to outlast it and go back to wreck havoc anyways.

let's talk engage now: like i said, galio has one of the best engage ultimates, a knockup, aoe taunt and comparable damage to shen, meanwhile, shen has one CC ability, an ultimate he's probably better off not using since three seconds of not putting out dps is gonna lose in the fight (or if he can do it, fight's already won by that point) and like I've been saying all this time: miss taunt and you have no real contributions to make

GodJormungandr1 votes

Well Shen is overall tankier than Galio against physical Damage, ya right if we are playing against mages 100% Galio better because with all the magic resist + hp He is extremely tanky but he can't really do much against auto attackers especially bruisers. Shen has the ability to take the melee down, his Q damage with titanic is quite powerful, he can solo adcs late game no problem because they can never damage/hurt him while his W is on his taunt is 1 click taunt it's pretty easy taunt . I don't understand why you have so much troubles using shen's taunt, just 1 click on the enemy and he'll dash to that target there is nothing hard about it , and his taunt deals damage, focused on single target, faster and has longer range to dash. Galio doesn't have long range to his taunt it's focused as an aura against enemies around him, so his taunt is best against auto attackers only, unless he flash taunts carries which will waste his flash Shen can taunt anyone anytime he wants, he has a good range on his E and he doesn't need any charge just 1 click = taunted. I play both i am a tank main and again i am telling ya no one is better. Everyone got his own power in a specific teamfight

rtbf906614561 votes

you also build frozen heart on shen... you see why im having a hard time believing you?

GodJormungandr1 votes

In this case, if you don't believe the 100 armor + 20 CDR and 20% attack speed reduction aura. Then ofcourse you think Galio is better and Shen needs buffs. Just take a second and think of the stats you get when you itemize and and give him FH and if you think it's bad on him then i can't really change your mind. Do whatever you prefer

Melledoneus2 votes

Frozen Heart is a wasted item slot on Shen.

It's like building Archangel's Staff on Katarina.

GodJormungandr1 votes

100 armor +20% CDR + 20% attack speed reduction [ Attack speed reducton is also an aura that helps your team]

It's tier 1 warden item. yes it's very wasted..... take a second and think about how strong Frozen heart is for Wardens who are the peelers. If you compare Frozen Heart on Shen to Archangel's staff on Katarina then ofcourse you will be losing games with Shen instantly and want him to be buffed. while he is literally fine if you build him right.

I'll just copy paste my previous comment i wrote to Twilight to you actually:

Just have a look at this combo of my build and it's stats for late game: item 3143 item 3110 = 160 bonus armor + 450 Health + 35% attack speed reduction + 20% CDR item 3111 item 3194 = 350 bonus Health + 80 magic resist + 10% CDR item 3083 item 3748 = 1250 bonus Health + 40 attack damage +10% CDR Also add him an Iron Elixir in late gameitem 2138 = extra 300 Health Overall you'll have total stats of:

  1. 4335 Health
  2. 151 Base Attack
  3. 40% CDR!
  4. 134 Magic Resist
  5. 245 Armor
  6. 385 movement speed
  7. 85.2 Health regen
  8. 35% attack speed reduction against enemies to you and 20% for your team
  9. Enough on hit damage procs with his Q and Titanic Hydra
  10. Over 50% Tenacity
  11. Extra tanky against Magc due to Adaption helmet while you taunt and W [nothing will hurt you]
  12. additionaly if the people you taunted ran away, Click on Randuin's active..

Is this lacking anything ? Shen is a MONSTER in late game with this build path i gave you, you also have your ultimate and your W makes you extremely good peeler in teamfights and very tanky at the same time! no i am sorry as a tank main, i strongly disagree with shen's buffs this warden is extremely good in mid - late game and teamfighting especially with my build and i rather him stays like that.

And A Real Hiero2 votes

These days I rush item 3748 into item 3091 almost regardless of matchup. Tabi is enough to deal with lack of armor and you can outduel a lot of the roster with these items. Let alone adc's you can blow them up with a single combo if their support isn't a top tier shieldbot. Not really a tanks job but hey it doesn't feel like building armor matters. Eventually I'll add a item 3068 followed by item 3075 or item 3143 if they have more crit. That build synergises so nicely with itself, it can outduel WW/Voli and some other AA oriented champs like trynd.

GodJormungandr1 votes

I like the idea but This build path isn't quite powerful on wardens, it'll help you in lanning phase against specific champions but overall it isn't going to be his main build, this one works on vanguards

And A Real Hiero1 votes

Got into gold with it so I got the free skin.

Ashen Rider1 votes

Riot intentionally makes his laning weak because his ult is so strong, I believe.

Melledoneus3 votes

But they nerfed the ult, so what's the excuse now?

I am genuinely curious.

Spoofghoul1 votes

Same reason as Sion sort off

Shen has his passive shields and his anti aa field thingy and his damage reduction taunt

So because of his tank steroids he gets gutted in base stats because he has 3 very potent steroids.

Sion is even worse off in that regard since he has even lower base stats and his ''steroids'' aren't guaranteed to scale since you need to farm for it which is an issue if you fall behind and get zoned off

Another factor in shen's case might be the impactful ult and his good 1v1 potential

Anyway that is what i think is the reason riot gave him low stats.

I don't think Shen deserves that treatment and neither does Sion as far as i'm concerned

4th3t0s3 votes

His taunt lost the damage reduction with his rework.

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