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There, Pantheon's nerfed

Z Statistic··3 votes·2,094 views

>Pantheon Heartseeker Strike (E) Active damage over 3 strikes lowered to 80/130/180/230/280 (+3 bonus AD) from 80/140/220/260/320 (+3.6 bonus AD) [Tooltip has changed. It now lists damage over three strikes vs listing an damage of each strike. Also now lists damage to champions and mentions it does reduced damage to minion/monster rather than damage it does to monster/minion then double to champiions.] [NOTE: Damage to minions/monsters roughly the same.] _Grand Skyfall (R) _ Mana cost reduced to 100 at all ranks from 125. No longer refunds (85) mana if R is cancelled. Cooldown when cancelled increased to 30 seconds from 10 seconds.

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/02/224-pbe-update.html#balance

No crying, no bullshit, no wailing or gnashing of teeth and yet he still got nerfed. Yes, continue to cry about Zed, a champion whose damage is 100% skillshot based while Pantheon deals respectable burst with the skill of old Ryze.

His main damage spell got destroyed at later ranks. He now deals 100 less damage per E at rank 5 with 100 bonus AD. That's roughly a 15% reduction in damage to his main damage spell. The other 2 nerfs are pretty much meaningless, but hopefully the amazing buff to his R cost will help with early snowballing. That is honestly my biggest gripe with Pantheon. I never seem to have enough mana to countergank effectively unless I literally just came from the fountain.

26 Comments

Calabok2 votes

No crying, no bullshit, no wailing or gnashing of teeth.

so why are you posting this crap in the forums??? You're doing exactly that.

Borkahn1 votes

I think he is talking about everyone else crying about Pantheon.

Z Statistic1 votes

Actually, I mistyped. Virtually NO ONE was complaining about him. Everyone is complaining about Zed and to a lesser degree Talon. Quite frankly, these changes really won't affect my playstyle whatsoever because I max Q first and build Rhydra for waveclear. By the time I'm level 1 when E is fully maxed, the game's already in my favor, making the E change meaningless, or we're losing, also making the E change meaningless.

MnR9IRojHw1 votes

his q wasnt his main damage spell? fuck me for thinking a 200 damage point and clcik q every 5 seconds in lane was annoying. why nerf the e tho. if anything rework the passive to be less annoying in lane and something more useful in game.

Borkahn1 votes

True the passive on the E basically buffed the Q. Guaranteed to crit with Q beneath a certain % health.

Z Statistic1 votes
  1. Lol. His E is probably one of if not the hardest hitting and hardest scaling basic ability in the game. Once you get enough AD, even a crit spear isn't as hard hitting as his E.
  2. It's actually a very mana efficient form of harass vs melee. Just E them when they go into the cs. It's pretty much that simple. It's also a bit of waveclear, which is nice.
  3. His passive is extremely useful at all stages of the game. Learn to pop it with trash autos instead of your important ones [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Baby Ghoul1 votes

Pantheon just isn't fun to play against. I never thought he was OP, but he's one of those champions that's just a pain, more so than others.

Z Statistic1 votes

Play Darius. Build heath/armor. He's got just the right stats, kit, and early game damage to push him out of lane. You pretty much have to allin Pantheon straight from the get go to push him out of lane and squeak out a bit of cs. Once you have that Fist or Phage, it's significantly harder to get bursted down when he's delayed in gold.

Baby Ghoul1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Menea Calais,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Jd4TadE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-02-25T02:58:56.526+0000)

Play Darius. Build heath/armor. He's got just the right stats, kit, and early game damage to push him out of lane. You pretty much have to allin Pantheon straight from the get go to push him out of lane and squeak out a bit of cs. Once you have that Fist or Phage, it's significantly harder to get bursted down when he's delayed in gold.

You pretty much just suggested the one champion I hate the most in this game. Darius has always been a pain in the ass, and now that he's balanced, he hasn't lost that quality.

I'm not saying they're OP or need nerfs, but man ask most top laners. They do not enjoy playing against those two. You can win against them, but it's not gonna be fun.

Sky of Smiles1 votes

WAIT WTF!? E is Pantheon's main damage spell?

mogonk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sky of Smiles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Jd4TadE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-25T02:51:06.174+0000)

WAIT WTF!? E is Pantheon's main damage spell?

Yes. Q is lane harass, when it comes down to actual fighting E does more damage.

Z Statistic1 votes

If you wanna split hairs, his Q is the one that will chunk you in lane, and then he'll finish you off with a combo after several pokings. It's also the one that's most visible in trades, harass, and sneaking an occasional cs. But in that 100-combo, E is the largest contributor to his burst, especially at high AD amounts.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Zed has 2 skillshots. Pantheon has 1. Also, the majority of Zed's damage late game is from his autos while Pantheon's auto animation is one of the worst in the game.

Z Statistic1 votes

Zed can slow you, but he still has to aim his Q with correct trajectory, place his W in the right spot so that he can use E to the fullest effect which are all compounded by R having virtually no base damage and only multiples of everything else. The only thing simple is sticking to your target and auting them.

Pantheon literally stuns you for longer than his burst takes with a point and click spell, an E that takes virtually no aiming, and autos weaving between them. You don't even use your R to 100-0 people most of the time. Zed is pretty shit without his up.

But no, his animation is not one of the worst in the game. That goes to Ryze, Anivia, and Karthus. I'd put his animation on par with Riven's except she can cancel whereas he cannot. He's pretty damn smooth as far as I can tell. Probably as smooth as Irelia's? It's all subjective really.

Scorpionex1 votes

what i dont understand is why is pantheon being nerfed when the item is clearly the problem...

Sinlaire1 votes

Has nobody else caught that his E was actually really only minorly tweaked?

It says right under the nerf that the tooltip was now changed to reflect the TOTAL damage of the spell and not the spell's individual hits.

which means he only loss 40 base damage total and a little damage ratio. which i dont remember any Panths building and more than 2 of anyways. 1 including item 3071 .

Z Statistic1 votes

A little damage ratio?

He lost ~15% of his damage on E at rank 5 and 100 bonus AD when E contributes to approximately 60-65% of his total combo burst.

Sinlaire1 votes

80/130/180/230/280 (+3 bonus AD) from 80/140/220/260/320 (+3.6 bonus AD)

I see a nerf of 40 base damage at level 5 and .6 Bonus AD. meaning the scaling only comes from attack damage items built.

On mobafire i see that panth only averages about 2-3 attack items built per game and either item 3071 or item 3033 is one of those in the majority of cases. Neither of which are big suppliers of AD. So yeah, His E damage got hit, but i see only about 100 damage TOTAL being pulled off his damage between the base and the ratio and not numbers just falling everywhere.

And while i agree that E does contribute heavily to his total burst, I always felt like Panth played more like an Assassin then a fighter due to his E anyways. So while i feel bad for Panth mains, i like that they're forcing him to do something other than try and 100-0 the Squishy with a Q - stun - Gib combo before they can react.

Z Statistic1 votes

{quoted}

On mobafire

Using mobafire for League stuff is as legitimate as quoting Fox News. Come back after you've looked at sites like lolking, Champion.gg, probuilds.net, etc.

Sinlaire1 votes

Probuilds.net Shows Pantheon players building 2-3 damage items per game and no more. Many of them incorporating item 3147 which, once again, is just that q - stun - E Gib mechanic going into play and Panth being played assassin and not fighter.

Champion GG shows that for Pantheon top his most common build path and most common win path (netting 55% win rate in plat+ and players with over 125+ games spiking as high as 60%) which sits at item 3142 >item 3009 >item 3071 >item 3156 >item 3742 >item 3026

In which Panth is being played as a bruiser/fighter with, as i said from my mobafire builds, only 2-3 damage items per game. and while clearly i showed that being 3 damage items, that's only when you make it to full build, some games end sooner than being able to get 3 weapons and a boot.

So i still stand behind my assessment. Especially considering people are trying to use item 3147 on him to cheese with a full rotation and get the proc off for near uncounterable damage. if you want to blame the nerf, blame duskblade.

Z Statistic1 votes

So i still stand behind my assessment.

Which is what exactly? 'That he was minorly tweaked'?

If you only take into account the base damage nerf, the ratio is 12.5% nerf. If you only take into account the scalings, it's 16.66%. The overall nerf is going to fluctuate between those two depending how much AD you buy. But no matter how you slice it, it is a 12.5-16.6% damage nerf to the damage spell that contributes to ~60% of his combo damage.

No, he got hit hard.

Pantheon's builds are flexible, so this won't kill him, but it will kick his full AD or high AD builds to the side a bit.

Vekkna1 votes

A 3.6 bonus AD ratio is just ridiculous. The AP equivalent of that would be if Vlad had a 2.4 AP ratio on his E instead of .45 AP.

Z Statistic1 votes

Vlad also uses his R in pretty much every fight. Pantheon can use his W to keep you from moving, but do remember that virtually all of Pantheon's burst AND poke is concentrated into two basic abilities. The only viable comparisons with that constraint are supports.

Vekkna1 votes

Lulu .5 AP on Q, .4 AP on E. Total AP ratio of .9. Chogath 1 AP on Q, .7 AP on W, .7 AP on R. Total AP ratio of 2.4.

remember that virtually all of Pantheon's burst AND poke is concentrated into two basic abilities. The only viable comparisons with that constraint are supports.

Umm...what? Panth has base damage on W and R. No, his damage is not entirely bundled into two abilities. What you're saying is as illogical as saying "oh, Teemo can't use a shroom in every fight, so let's triple his Q ratio."

Just to add some perspective for how ridiculous a 3.6 bonus AD ratio is for a .75 second cast, let's just use the universally-reviled Teemo as an example. A 3.6 bonus AD ratio is the equivalent scaling of eight toxic shots in .75 seconds. Or if Teemo used aa > q > aa > aa over 8 seconds.

Z Statistic1 votes

Yes, in the middle of a fight, I am going to channel for 3 seconds to deal some ok magic damage. Brilliant

No, Pantheon uses his ult to initiate or flank. But to say that he can do this all the time is laughable really. This is an ideal situation because a lot of the time, you are going in blind if an opportunity presents itself. As opposed to your own example where Vlad should ALWAYS use his ult whenever he is going for a kill and there is honestly no excuse for not using it if it's available.

Don't pretend you know Pantheon's kit, his playstyle, and what makes him tick. If Riot were to outright remove the damage on his W and R, it wouldn't change a damn thing in his playstyle. Everything about Pantheon revolves around the following burst: auto -> E -> auto -> Q -> auto. That's it. The whole purpose of W and R is to reposition him and keep his target in one spot long enough to pull it off.

Of course 3.6 BAD is ridiculous; it has to be ridiculous when the entire combo has only two relevant spells. 250 magic damage at lvl 18 laughable. The only insane damage in his kit is the ideal situation of his ult: 1000 magic damage at the epicenter. But you don't use it because you can't use it. Half of the time you use it as a zoning tool and deal no damage whatsoever.

But what are you trying to say? That this is a love tap because his E is so insane? Again, the spell that contributes roughly 60% of the damage in his standard his burst combo just got nerfed by roughly 15%. It's definitely not going to break him. It honestly changes very little for my preferred kill order, but it definitely hits him hard for the FotM people who were skilling E first.

Rebonack1 votes

His late game just got absolutely dumpstered.

Anyone recall spearshot Panth back in Season 1? Where he basically never leveled E because of how awful it was?

I can see that happening again.

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