Boards›Gameplay

@RiotStattik, Your Thoughts on Sona Now?

The Yetii Rider··3 votes·1,358 views

Okay, so it's been a few weeks since Sona's bugfix hit live, and Sona definitely feels better to play now. However, we have received no air time about Sona since then. That's fine, we all know everyone was busy with World's, and I'm not here to be a jerk to anyone. Just asking for a bit of communication from Riot here. Now, Stattik is working on the Preaseason Jungle Changes (which look great, btw) so I assume he hasn't had a lot of time to write to us or to really give Sona a look over, but his last post to us did say they were testing some Sona changes internally and I was just wondering if there were any results there that looked promising, or if the general consensus was that Sona was in a better spot after her bugfix and she didn't need to be changed.

Just in case, I'd like to leave some stuff here:

With the changes to the way mana regeneration works, I think it really is time for Sona's mana costs to be adjusted. Currently with the high level of flat mana regeneration available (Ardent Censer, Talisman, Athene's/Mikael's, etc) Sona's absurd mana costs are pretty workable. However, when that changes to just be an improvement on her base mana regen (which is not all that high), a 200 mana cost skill is a little ridiculous. Comparable ultimates like Solar Flare, Idol of Durand, and Enchanted Crystal Arrow are all modernized but Crescendo (And Curse of the Sad Mummy, oddly enough) are sitting at 200 mana per cast at max rank. I haven't had a chance to test this new regeneration system but it really doesn't seem like it will lend itself to such high flat costs. Still, I think this gives us a chance to use Sona's mana costs as a real, effective gate to her power, so perhaps you could standardize all of them to cost 10% of her maximum mana, with Crescendo costing 25%? That way, Sona is not rewarded for building mana over mana regeneration (So Archangel's won't feel so useful on her JUST for the mana relief) and she WILL be rewarded for stacking regeneration in the new system because the faster her mana regenerates, the better she can keep up her spam. Poor Sona players will be punished for spamming more often than they should, while good Sona players will be rewarded for careful management, and finally Sona actually has some skill required besides positioning.

35 Comments

Pika3103 votes

For now I'm just going to note, Sona's mana issues wouldn't be nearly as bad if Fearless hadn't unjustifiably nerfed Aria's cost by 17%. That and yes, Crescendo should have been give a flat cost when it was done for Leona well over a year ago in patch 3.13. This has been suggested countless times, but Riot doesn't care about Sona.

Sailor Mint2 votes

How much mana do you actually need?

  • Sona's base mana regen is slightly above average.
  • Mana regen is getting nerfed across the board, this means sieges will not go on indefinitely.
  • If the tooltip is to be trusted, Crest of Insight (blue buff) now gives mana regen and CDR to nearby allies.

Either way, you only need enough mana to siege and teamfight. Remember, we were just fine in previous season with only a Philo/Shurelya's as our only mana item.

Crescendo's mana cost is setup that way so mana costs don't become completely irrelevant once you have enough regen, It's annoying in the sense that Sona has 100 less usable mana than everyone else, but in the grand scheme of things, it's minimal.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Here is what I think is the major problem with Sona, and Riot PLEASE at least look at this because it took me a while to phrase this properly:

Sona no longer has a type of carry that she supports well.

Before Sona's rework, she functioned excellently in poke compositions (because she had a lot of up-front magic damage on a low cooldown and she gave her allies extra damage on their poke spells) and in burst compositions (because she increased a champions burst statistics and she also provided a large window to crush someone with Crescendo).

Now, however, we look at the landscape of marksmen today. Burst marksmen don't do nearly as much damage in the mid game as they used to, because BT was nerfed and Sona can no longer grant that sweet 20 AD that really did feel like it increased their damage over all. The 1.5 seconds that Sona can lock someone down for don't feel nearly as strong for Graves, Caitlyn or Ezreal as it used to.

Well, what about in poke compositions? No, Sona is sadly less used there as well, because her base damage has been lowered on her Q, the extra damage on her Power Chord Staccato was nerfed, and her Q has a longer cooldown. Now, it does have more damage than it used to if everyone in the group autos with the Q aura, but keeping someone OUT of auto range is what poke comps are for. So that doesn't help there either.

It SEEMS like Sona was designed to support the new sustained damage auto-attacker carry types. And she does. She has a shield to help assist in trades that also heals based on how low you are, giving you the option to turn it around if your carry can pump out consistent high damage. She also empowers an auto, which can help with trading as well.

Here's the problem there: Sona's peel is awful. Seriously. It is. She's not as good in Protect the Trist comps as Janna, and she's not as good at securing kills for her sustained damage carries in the laning phase as Braum or Leona or Nami. In other words, Sona is shoved out in the place she was reworked to be good in, not because she's not good at what she does, but because everyone else is better at it.

So there you go, Stattik. I'm not sure how else to say it, but Sona feels bad to play as because every time I play her I think "I could be doing this way better if I was Nami".

12tales1 votes

Sona no longer has a type of carry that she supports well.

I don't really agree. She's a monster in lane when used alongside ADCs with the ability to apply on hit effects at long range - Caitlyn and Ezreal stand out in particular. Nami is the only champion with at all similar utility in lane, but she has significantly lower damage output than Sona in exchange for better peel.

Where yeah, Sona doesn't offer as much outside of lane as a Nami or a Janna, but that's because she's a laning champion - it's not dissimilar to the relationship between LeBlanc and Kassadin, back when they were both OP. The decreased utility is made up for by the fact that you win virtually every trade by default, so you're hitting the mid game further ahead than you would with Nami.

Also, her W is incredibly for siege comps in my experience, since it lets your team duck in for one or two autos even when minions aren't present. Sorta like a miniature Bloodthirster in terms of the siege utility it offers.

Overall, my limited experience with Sona is that she's very fun to play, extremely strong to lane, but decent to bad in the mid to late game (discounting the possibility of 5 man crescendos). I see her as filling a fairly clear niche in the support ecosystem, and don't necessarily think she's in need of changes.

(as an aside, do you have an account on the GitP forums, by any chance?)

Sightless661 votes

Here's my experience with Sona: She's an average laner nowadays. Her damage is not really majorly higher in lane than Nami's, and she has more vulnerability to just getting instagibbed because she has to get in closer and has no CC to prevent engages. Her trading is better if it works out perfectly, but it's much easier to punish a Sona's trading than a Nami's trading. Where Sona starts to improve is actually the late game, where she can provide a lot of damage and shields because she buffs and entire team, and where her E starts to give massive team-wide speed boosts instead of being useless like it is early on.

I don't play Sona when I need a strong lane anymore. The damage nerfs and the limitation on how the Q can be used for boosting an ally's damage both limit that option.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Yes, Sona's real power is her late game. The problem there (especially on East Coast) is that Sona's power is packed into the maximum strength of her auras. Sona is balanced around the idea that she has the POTENTIAL to give her power to 5 players at the same time. So if one person disconnects, afks, or rage-quits, Sona's power becomes unbalanced and under-impressive, by design. She's not designed to be balanced around having three other people to buff, she's designed to buff four people at once, and there's just no getting around that. No other support is limited by how many people they can support at once. Janna just needs one person to shield and she can knock back the enemy team. Braum just needs one person to trigger his passive and he can knock up the enemy team. Leona just needs one person to trigger her passive and she can AOE stun from miles away (plus Sunfire Cape). Thresh only needs one person while he stuns someone for 1.5 seconds.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

I am on GitP, yes. Love to homebrew, love Pathfinder.

The problem with long-range poke champs is that Braum fits them better because he's able to peel enemies off to get them the disengage, as well as giving them the option to use their long-range autos to stun (which is much better for winning trades/getting kills than an extra 40-200 damage, especially when the stun itself also gives plenty more damage).

And Nami not only has stronger peel, she also has significantly better engage (an AOE stun vs Sona's "burst" or her 40% slow that costs 175 mana to use). Her E gives champs like Trist and Lucian much higher damage in trades and her heal has a higher AP scaling than Sona's.

Sailor Mint3 votes

Nami's ultimate is strictly follow up/disengage.

To be completely honest, you don't have to be mechanically skilled to play Sona optimally. If you miss a skillshot on Nami or mistime your shield on Braum, you're useless. Sona just needs some understanding of positioning.

This is huge in lower brackets, and even at higher elo. Potential power means nothing if you lack reliability.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Who's talking about Nami's ultimate? Her Q is the AOE stun.

And she may be "easy to play" but she's punished for that with exorbitant mana costs, the second lowest health in the game, and no hard cc pre-6.

Btw, she's the only support who DOESN'T have pre-6 hard cc

Ali- Knock back/knock up Lulu - Polymorph, 80% slow Soraka - AOE silence, slow Nami - Slow, AOE stun Braum - Stun, 70% slow Leona- Stun, Root Taric - Stun, Armor Debuff Janna - AOE Knock up, Slow Annie - AOE stun Thresh - 1.5 second stun, knock back/slow

Sona - 40% slow that is gated by having a minimum 175 mana cost (scales up to 195 at later levels), has 550 range, 12 second cooldown, and is also not on demand, it's delayed by Sona's auto-attack wind up. Not to mention, it also costs Sona potential damage since she's not using her Power Cord for Staccato.

So yes, Sona is "easier to play". But every other champion is rewarded for their required skill with actual usefulness.

Sailor Mint2 votes

Unless you're playing against another sustain lane, all it takes is 1-2 trades to get rid of their pots and you're cruising to a free lane. That part really didn't change with the rework. Only difference is, you need to at least break even in trades to win the lane now.

If you're having mana issues in lane as Sona, I'd suggest mp5 runes and more mana pots, especially if you find yourself never using your cookies. And of course, winning is always helpful, you barely need to use any mana on Heal when you're ahead.

BTW, you run a really squishy setup on Sona. (...where's your sightstone?)

Pika3102 votes

On the other hand, instead of Sona I could choose a support with a stronger heal on a more reasonable mana cost and cd. Offhand my options are: Nami, Alistar, Taric, Kayle, Nidalee and any champion with Relic Shield.

Healing 25-30 HP at the cost of an entire 1/3 your max mana doesn't cut it, she quite literally has the weakest heal in the entire game now. Mana regen runes and more blue pots can't compensate for that nerf.

Considering all of her damage is now 25-50% weaker, 1 or 2 trades isn't going to be anything resembling a "free lane," sustain or not. That's just either delusional or propaganda. Matter-of-factly she'll run out of mana by the 2nd exchange, 3rd if you burn through blue pots and extra mana runes/masteries.

Sailor Mint2 votes

Fighting with health disadvantage is the quickest way to turn a slight disadvantage into a completely lost lane.

While they all in fact have a heal, all the champions you've mentioned (except Nami) have an issues. Relic Shield fixes some ranged vs melee imbalance, but we're talking 40 health per minute.

Healing 25-30 HP at the cost of an entire 1/3 your max mana doesn't cut

Level .. Base Mana.. Mana Cost .. %Cost
13107022.58%
23557019.72%
34007017.50%
44457015.73%
54907014.29%
65357013.08%
75807012.07%
86257512.00%
96707511.19%
107158011.19%
117608010.53%
128058510.56%
138509010.59%
148959010.06%
15940909.57%
16985909.14%
171030908.74%
181075908.37%

Pretty sure I have a heal strength spreadsheet somewhere.

Pika3102 votes

While they all in fact have a heal, all the champions you've mentioned (except Nami) have an issues.

Perhaps, but none of their issues are nearly as bad as the ones Sona currently suffers. Namely: a lack of easily accessible CC; sub-par poke damage; immobility; and an entirely melee kit, save R.

Not a one of the champions I listed suffers more than a single of these problems, whilst Sona is burdened by all 4 simultaneously.

Sailor Mint3 votes

If she's so bad off, why is she sitting on a near 12% pick rate (#31, 6th for Supports) and 54.5% win rate (#1)? Higher than all the supports you've mentioned, except Nami who's sitting at 14.4%.

It appears a lot of people are finding ways around what you consider a poorly designed kit. (BTW, 850 range is not melee).

Pika3103 votes

People pick her cause she has big boobs. The truth doesn't get more honest than that.

A high win-rate is better evident that a champion is weak, not strong. Unless you want to tell me Amumu, Rammus and Fiora are top-tier champs? Or that Yasuo and Twitch are complete trash?

Anyone who desperately attempts to rely on and cling to win-rates as an argument proves their own ignorance.

Sailor Mint3 votes

Do you ever get bored of posting the same stuff over and over? At this point, i'm not sure if you genuinely think she's weak or you're trying to get her nerfed to the ground (last I checked, your win rate against Sona is really low).

I got to Plat twice playing Sona, and I'm not the only person seeing that kind of success. Stats support that assessment. I'm not against minor tweaks, just like everyone else i'd like to see her Q buff procing from spells, but not at any cost.

**I don't want to see Sona nerfed to the ground because people like you keep bringing her up to the spotlight. **

Pika3102 votes

I'm forced to repeat myself, because trolls like you refuse to listen or use logic. You're too busy wearing blinders over your rose-tinted glasses to do basic arithmetic. This is evident by the fact you're propagandizing that Riot would even consider nerfing a champion with a 0% winrate at worlds.

It's clear I've wasted my time here. I want Sona to succeed, but my efforts are continuously stifled by trolls like you who are only interested in harassing anyone with an unbiased view.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

I'm forced to repeat myself, because trolls like you refuse to listen or use logic. You're too busy wearing blinders over your rose-tinted glasses to do basic arithmetic. This is evident by the fact you're propagandizing that Riot would even consider nerfing a champion with a 0% winrate at worlds.

It's clear I've wasted my time here. I want Sona to succeed, but my efforts are continuously stifled by trolls like you who are only interested in harassing anyone with an unbiased view.

> Sona is weak because she has a high solo queue win rate > Sona is weak because she has a low world's win rate > mfw you're able to operate a keyboard

http://i.imgur.com/dumKoLQ.png

Sailor Mint2 votes

Now that Sona is getting nerfed, what's the next champion on your agenda?

Pika3102 votes

I pity you, I really do. Your daftness and intentional trolling knows no bounds.

Supports don't need high AP ratios. Additionally, Hymn's on-hit effect has 3-fold problems: its base is too low; her allies cannot utilize it appropriately as it only triggers on auto attacks and does not hit turrets; and her melee range makes it far too difficult to donate regardless.

In summary, they're trading a useless stat from an unusable ability to make Aria's heal viable. This is a pure buff, but I can understand how a toxic person like yourself who's opposed to UP champs being buffed wants to propagandize it.

This isn't enough to make Sona viable, but now she almost has the lane sustain she had lost.

Sailor Mint2 votes

Since you misread it.

  • Hymn of Valor (Q) aura on hit magic damage AP ratio lowered to 0.2 from 0.25.

  • Aria of Perseverance (W) healing now increased by [0.5% per 1% missing HP] down from [1% per 1% missing HP]. **tl;dr +50% healing against 1HP targets, down from +100%.**

  • Aria of Perseverance (W) base heal increased to 30/50/70/90/110 from 25/45/65/85/105.
Base Heal:25/45/65/85/105 (+0.2AP)->30/50/70/90/110 (+0.2AP)
Max Heal:50/90/130/170/210 (+0.4AP)->45/75/105/135/165 (+0.3AP)
50% Heal:38/68/98/128/158 (+0.3AP)->38/63/88/113/138 (+0.25AP)

We're talking about a 12-22% late game healing reduction at lower health levels, before AP.

Pika3102 votes

I didn't misread anything, % scaling on heals are meaningless. Holding on to a heal until your ally is dead is poor strategy. Late game doesn't matter, supports are laning phase champions and Sona's healing is lackluster regardless.

A max heal is impossible, you may revel in telling your ADC you let them die cause you wanted to wait for a max heal, but that's cause you're toxic and intentionally create discord. You proved me right when I predicted you would attempt to propagandize this buff.

Sailor Mint1 votes

I didn't misread anything, % scaling on heals are meaningless. Holding on to a heal until your ally is dead is poor strategy. Late game doesn't matter, supports are laning phase champions and Sona's healing is lackluster regardless.

A max heal is impossible, you may revel in telling your ADC you let them die cause you wanted to wait for a max heal, but that's cause you're toxic and intentionally create discord. You proved me right when I predicted you would attempt to propagandize this buff.

I kind of miss back when it almost looked like you were trying. It was fun while it lasted.

Emmy Cha0s2 votes

Wow, you still haven't been banned from the forums yet? These moderators don't know how to do their job.

Personal insults, intentional trolling, purposeful discord... What more are they waiting for from you?

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

I didn't misread anything, % scaling on heals are meaningless. Holding on to a heal until your ally is dead is poor strategy. Late game doesn't matter, supports are laning phase champions and Sona's healing is lackluster regardless.

A max heal is impossible, you may revel in telling your ADC you let them die cause you wanted to wait for a max heal, but that's cause you're toxic and intentionally create discord. You proved me right when I predicted you would attempt to propagandize this buff.

"Hi I'm Pika310 and I cant do basic arithmetic"

5 base heal increase

0.5% less scaling

Rank 1

25% missing old vs new: 31 vs 33

50%: 37.5 vs 37.5

75%: 43.75 vs 41.25

Rank 3

25%: 81.25 vs 78.75

50%: 97.5 vs 87.5

75%: 113.75 vs 96.25

Rank 5

25%: 131.25 vs 123.75

50%: 157.5 vs 137.5

75%: 183.75 vs 151.25

Rank 5 with 200 AP just for fun

50%: 217.5 vs 187.5

So that's a nerf at every level and they nerfed her Q slightly

I don't even care that it isn't a very large nerf, I'm just laughing because you guys were crying for buffs to someone with that high a win rate

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

Now that Sona is getting nerfed, what's the next champion on your agenda?

Trying to decide between Riven and Syndra

Emmy Cha0s2 votes

Sona nerfed

Lol, we don't need more proof you're intentionally trolling. Please stop before you get banned from the forums for harassment. You're purposefully causing conflict and spreading propaganda. Your words are laced with libel.

Sailor Mint2 votes

In all honesty, I can't wait for your reaction when Sona's most likely Ultimate skin gets released and she officially hits fotm.

Pika3102 votes

Why would that matter? That's completely irrelevant to her game-state, the nerfs and this thread as a whole. Congatz, with that non-sequitur you've brought back my old point that mostly fad-chasers play nerfed Sona.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

A high win-rate is better evident that a champion is weak, not strong

LOL

What are you on?

That is literally the best thing I have ever read

AnomalousChimera1 votes

Pika, dude, I feel you (don't think too highly of Sona), but "A high win-rate is better evident that a champion is weak, not strong." is complete madness. What a high winrate is more likely to show is that a champion is mechanically easy to use, which Sona is. The reason she was one of the first champions I bought was exactly that.

Kynami1 votes

Uhh, the reason to take an Tear/Archangel is a deeper pool for bursts of heavy use before backing for a fresh set of wards and a mana refill rather than the ongoing sustain available from the chalice options. Additionally the shield from Seraph's Embrace combined with a couple defensive items can send Sona upwards of 4K effective health.

Standardizing costs to 10% total mana would be ruinous. It would literally lock her out of Tear, Frozen Heart, early Sheen... the list goes on.

AnomalousChimera1 votes

I think the proposed Season 5 changes to mana regeneration will significantly affect Sona and mana-hungry champions since mana regeneration is getting nerfed across the board as Devi Freak Mint has already mentioned. She really burns through a lot of mana, and your proposal to make her skills cost high amounts of her maximum mana of her maximum mana would only help her in the laning phase while gating her heavily in the lategame.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

SONA NERFS CONFIRMED

GET STYLED LOL

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by The Yetii Rider

The Trinity of Botlane and What it Means for Supports
Gameplay144 comments
129
votes
PSA - Master Yi's Highlander Grants him Immunity to Attack Speed Slows
Gameplay151 comments
124
votes
If There Ever Was a Champion who Deserved a Mirror Interaction...
Story, Art, & Sound41 comments
121
votes
League of Legends is One of my Favorite Games of All Time
Gameplay51 comments
119
votes
Meddler, Any Plans to Nerf Thresh?
Gameplay196 comments
118
votes
"Violence is a Key Aspect to Warwick's Theme, and We Want to See How Far We Can Push That"
Gameplay119 comments
110
votes