Why not make an item with a dodge active?

Ralanr·Dec 21, 2016·19 votes·1,501 views

So I think most of you remember (it was before my time) when dodge was an item stat. It was an rng defensive mechanic to combat rng crit (this is my guess). It was removed for reasons I don't really know but it had something to do with RNG being unhealthy.

Fast forward to the assassin rework and we reach a problem that assassins get bursted too easily by ADCs because they can't take 2-3 crit hits in the timeframe for their combo to go off. There's no way to actually avoid auto attacks outside of a few select champion abilities, but what if we made an item with a dodge active?

Something like Serrated Dirk + longsword= Kinkou Kunai

Active: Champion dodges auto attacks for the next whole second.

Obviously this is a rough sketch of what it could be. The point isn't whether these stats are good, but if adding a dodge active is a good idea or not.

So, thoughts?

56 Comments

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 20164 votes

Dodging all autos from the entire enemy team was the problem with dodge, but a blind on the other hand would still leave room for team focus.

RalanrDec 21, 20168 votes

So an item that can blind a target? Definitely sounds like an assassins toy.

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 201610 votes

Oh it would absolutely be the assassins wet dream, it would allow the assassin to do their job 1v1 against the adc which is really what they are struggling at atm, but wouldn't allow them to potentially 1v3 like a dodge active might.

RalanrDec 21, 20161 votes

Hmm, good point.

PlanetWarwickDec 21, 20161 votes

Teemo

MelledoneusDec 22, 20164 votes

Damn it, there goes my Shen strat...

AhristocatsDec 21, 20163 votes

Jax to begin with, he was the reason that dodge was removed, totally, no other things were wrong someone like phreak said it once that jax was a huge problem with dodge

second i'll talk to you about dodge it used to be a stat countering low attack speed targets, Dodge wasn't an issue if you had a high attack speed since people would dodge 10 or 20% of your attack (unless they were named jax/udyr/nidalee).

However, if you had a low attack speed the stat became frustrating: if the enemy RNG'ed hard then he would dodge 2 or 3 attacks in a row fucking your game over, i'm doing a special mention to jhin/graves who would be hardcountered by dodge if it was still a thing. that's the entire reason it was removed, because of RNG if your champion wasn't able to hit a lot.

but the higher issue is that dodge had a terrible counter: sword of the divine. It was an awful item giving 60% attack speed and every 4th hit it dealt bonus magic damage, and on active you had true strike for 8 seconds making you unable to miss. If the item was relevant, i think dodge wouldn't have been removed

{quoted} Active: Champion dodges auto attacks for the next whole second.

i would make it a passive: every X second you dodge one attack

RalanrDec 21, 20163 votes

I'd prefer it be an active because it then becomes a choice and thus deepens the gameplay.

"Do I use it to avoid the first attack of retaliation or do I use it to help survive an escape if I fail?" Vs "I'm dodging this next attack no matter what and it's going to be up again. I have little control over it."

I think people prefer control over such an ability on when to use it.

AhristocatsDec 21, 20161 votes

Because it's counterproductive just like jax current E

people will stop attacking you and wait the end, they won't bother trying to deal with you unlike old dodge, if they don't then there isn't any point to buy it except on champions that can't disengage easily

and that's why jax now uses his E to stun people and not to dodge

RalanrDec 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7F9x3M7a,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-12-21T20:21:13.167+0000)

Because it's counterproductive just like jax current E

people will stop attacking you and wait the end, they won't bother trying to deal with you unlike old dodge, if they don't then there isn't any point to buy it except on champions that can't disengage easily

and that's why jax now uses his E to stun people and not to dodge

The difference is that Jax can't attack when he's dodging. I never said this item prevented you from attacking while dodging.

Basically it'd force the target to make a retreat which could give the assassin an advantage.

AhristocatsDec 21, 20162 votes

Jax can still attack during the dodge, but it doesn't solve the problem no one is going to hit him while his dodge is on and that's why he only uses it for the stun

{quoted}

Basically it'd force the target to make a retreat which could give the assassin an advantage.

that doesn't solve anything, like i said it would only be good against those who have terrible disengage, and guess what they also have their support for this, so basically you're useless since: -ADC can stil do damage with spells, ie:lucian 100-0 you with ulti -they have their support to disengage -it's only one second anyway it doesn't change anything, and if you increase the duration you're going to break the item

RalanrDec 21, 20161 votes

I see. Well there is always that blind option up top.

LightSwordDec 22, 20161 votes

It would open the meta a little more for spellcasting adc's no?

LightSwordDec 22, 20161 votes

Jax E is really good to tank a minion wave and smack someone with that bonus damage. (maybe that's just me)

MunchCrunchLunchDec 21, 20162 votes

or better yet. remove crit. rebalance auto attacks and dps. game is now fixed after 6 seasons.

you introduced dodge because crit was op. removed dodge because it was rng and not healthy. why did you keep crit?. too lazy to figure something out with dps?. just make on hit damage items and remove critical strikes. crit is broken and it forces champions to go full glass cannon. remove crit so champs aren't balanced around building 6 damage items and neither they insta gib us with burst dps.

RalanrDec 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

or better yet. remove crit. rebalance auto attacks and dps. game is now fixed after 6 seasons.

you introduced dodge because crit was op. removed dodge because it was rng and not healthy. why did you keep crit?. too lazy to figure something out with dps?. just make on hit damage items and remove critical strikes. crit is broken and it forces champions to go full glass cannon. remove crit so champs aren't balanced around building 6 damage items and neither they insta gib us with burst dps.

That is a whole other set of dominos that I doubt Riot want to tangle with while in the middle of their current set (class reworks).

And on-hit damage is the most stat checky thing in this game imo.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 21, 20161 votes

not really when you have multiple damage types. magic/phyiscal. and adcs own kit needs to synergize differently instead of "ugh i will build crit ad and we will relatively do the same shit as every other adc". adcs need to be more like casters. every champion in league needs a little less right clicking and a little more ability casting.

TyrekGoldenspearDec 21, 20162 votes

Then marksmen will be no different than AD casters if they don't utilize AAs as thr main source of their damage.

Valderis VandalaDec 21, 20162 votes

Will this be abusable by ADCs who will use it against other ADCs? You're effectively making an item that counters ADCs main form of damage while it also provides attack damage and armor penetration (looking at the items you list), might make for a nice dueling item for ADCs to use against their own class, would that be a problem?

RalanrDec 21, 20161 votes

Considering how lethality is pretty shit on ADCs, I don't think it'd be worth the purchase for a marksman.

Valderis VandalaDec 21, 20161 votes

Not in the early game, but in the late game where the crazy high damage crits happen. Being able to stop those might be just a useful for a ADC in a dual (against another ADC) as for a assassin.

RalanrDec 21, 20161 votes

Yeah, but late game ADCs are going to be great anyway. This is meant to help assassins deal with them and properly do their job.

TyrekGoldenspearDec 21, 20162 votes

You sir should get a cookie.

This could definitely help with ADCs 1v1ing their intended predator.

Now we just have to try to limit abuse of this item...

RalanrDec 21, 20161 votes

Yep. 1 step at a time.

Sir FuzziDec 22, 20162 votes

Riven with a dodge active. Yasuo with a dodge active. Lee Sin with a dodge active. Darius with a dodge active. I mean, it would have to basically be a crit item to not just get pulled into the build of anyone who wants, or can benefit from a dodge active. Rengar, Garen, Kha'zix, and if it had no offensive stats you might see it on the likes of Ahri or Fiddlesticks. Terrifying.

This kind of item would really end up either too much or too little, probably.

PennsDec 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And a melee only high ap+magic pen item right?

:(

lul

RalanrDec 21, 20161 votes

But Leblanc isn't melee, she wants assassin items too.

PennsDec 21, 201611 votes

######Ahri and LB can fuk off, theyre both mages :c I mean... what? Did you hear that?

Risk of FateDec 21, 20169 votes

######I will devour your soul

Man, these breezes, right?

Ark SorcererDec 21, 20161 votes

Dodge was essentially an invasion stat. It is not random, it had a percent chance of it happening, like crit is a percent chance of an auto attack... well... crit. It is actually Critical Strike Chance. Chance. Evasion was removed for may reasons but one thing I can tell you is that Jax was capable of going into the the enemy fountain and dodge the lasers and could kill everyone in there. That is why dodge has been removed.

RalanrDec 21, 20161 votes

Ah. Right. Well this would only effect auto attacks and not just avoid damage from structures.

So would this work on an item?

Ark SorcererJan 16, 20171 votes

I know this late, um 25 days late. Haven't played LoL in a long while sooo...

To answer your question, from 25 days ago, no. That item would allow some effective and abused tactics to destroy marksmen in all stages. If it last a second, it would be pointless and never purchased. If it last 3-5 seconds, expect to see bruisers in the bot lane going all in against marksmen in the bot lane the second they get that item. Auto attack reliant champs cough cough Jinx, Caitlyn, Ashe, Twitch cough cough would be pointless as that is where 80% or more of their damages come from. Marksmen that do not need their auto attacks to do 50 plus percent of damage Draven, MF -- depends on build, Ezreal would become more popular 'counter' that item.

Sorry for the 25 day delay. I went back to my counsle roots and found that console games are better than pc games. Yes, LoL us included in this.

RalanrJan 16, 20171 votes

I prefer console over comp. can't find fun games though.

Ark SorcererJan 16, 20171 votes

LoL isn't my game simply because I like strategy. While the premise of League might offer it, the community does not want strategy as much as they want to kill everything that moves.

SlythionDec 21, 20161 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI1aeS5H1Vs

I believe this is what you're referring to ;)

GULAG 4 UDec 21, 20161 votes

yeah jax E on an item active? Totally will not be abused OP.

RalanrDec 21, 20163 votes

I didn't say it'd stun now did I?

GULAG 4 UDec 21, 20161 votes

woops

Nameless VoiceDec 21, 20161 votes

You might just be solving one problem by introducing another problem to counter it.

The problem is that ADCs burst too hard and can take out an assassin before they can even do anything. There's no counterplay for the assassin to being right-clicked to death. If this item were strong, there might be a problem of there being no counterplay for the ADC to stop the assassin from killing them... though I guess if it only lasts for one second, then there should be enough time for a teammate to tie up the assassin with CC, or for the ADC to use their own abilities to delay/escape.

The second issue is - Serrated Dirk and Longsword? What about AP assassins like Katarina?

RalanrDec 21, 20161 votes

On the second issue: AP assassins are hard to make stuff for that doesn't benefit mages almost better.

Nameless VoiceDec 21, 20161 votes

That's true. Lethality has at least finally made a lot of the AD-assassin items unattractive for other classes.

RalanrDec 21, 20161 votes

Honestly I could see Lethality as just The penetration stat and have the type of penetration scale on your main damage output.

Glory ln DeathDec 22, 20161 votes

For the Assassin Update, they actually had Youmuu's with a similar ability, originally. It would block the first auto-attack during its active.

They scrapped it before it left PBE, though - I'm guessing since it didn't really work with Youmuu's (you want to use Youmuu's to get to someone quickly, while you would want to use the Dodge active when you're already on top of them as a reactionary effect).

It would have been cool if they had put it on a different item, though. Of course, they'd have to make it really unappealing for other classes, since it would be a hard Jhin counter.

RalanrDec 22, 20161 votes

That's actually where I got the idea from.

LankPantsDec 22, 20161 votes

Kinda devalues armour a bit. Why would I play Sejuani or Amumu when I could play J4, build this item and have more survivability anyway?

DengedenDec 22, 20161 votes

Bad idea, assassins are supposed to stay just outside of your range using their kit (or jump you when alone, see Rengar, in which case they don't need such an item).

Wolfram OxfordDec 22, 20161 votes

I believe Riot initially wanted to give an active to Ghostblade that would make the user block the next basic attack but it never followed through. But besides being put into items I think it would be cool to release a champion that could deflect auto attacks and perhaps even spells.

SSJTribeDec 22, 20161 votes

Here's a fun video of a 100% dodge Jax killing a Tryndamere in the fountain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI1aeS5H1Vs