So, with the release of Ornn can we get some specific new "Tenacity" items for us melee folk?

Malicious Metal··141 votes·3,988 views

Dota's Black King bar pops to mind. We just need some ways for windowed CC redruction to outplay the growing number of disables.

Garen's W was a step in the right direction but with the increasing number of Crowd Control some immobile melee champions are going to be flamed for AFK.

83 Comments

Sire Hippington25 votes

I'd rather have more tenacitiy/slowreduction put into the kits of those that really need it, mostly juggernauts. If a champ is that vulnerable to kiteing, i think it's only fair if he atleast is somewhat resistent vs peel.

KONO RUBICK DA6 votes

BKB doesn't make you invulnerable to kiting, BKB doesn't make the enemy champions stunned BKB has a limited duration, unlike tenacity that is permanent, and can lead to outplays by bkbing incomming projectiles

so i think it can be something good in league

Sire Hippington11 votes

unlike tenacity that is permanent

Garen sure about that?

KONO RUBICK DA5 votes

? i'm talking about tenacity through items

BKB acts like olaf ult, and olaf can still be kited even with ult, MS boosts on enemies, and terrain creation is still a thing

Aimléss1 votes

Melee AP users need more tenacity. AD gets QSS, and you can't use zhonyas while stunned. Sure there needs to be more tenacity items, but AD isn't on the top of the list, AP is.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Where did i say anything about ad/ap or items? I said champs that need cc-resit to funktion should get it into their kit, and those that need it the most are usually fighters, they need to stick to targets in melee range for some time and many of them are not very mobile, so makeing them resistent to cc in return is rather fair. AP-melees are burst assasins, they don't need tenacity that badly, if they get cought by cc, they usually are donefor wether it last 30% longer or not, but if there was an AP-fighter, it would be certainly included in the 'should get tenacity/slowresist' pool.

Sasogwa19 votes

BKB on MasterYi Tryndamere Nasus Kappa

Spice POWAH5 votes

Oh jeez, you just made me imagine if Yi got CC immunity for 8 seconds

the horror...

kile14710 votes

Give Yi the old Poppy ult.

yesnobanana3 votes

But the he won't have his current ult. Making him a shitty Yasuo.meh.

Anu3isII4 votes

You really underestimate old Poppy's ult...

yesnobanana1 votes

If he gets to 5 items it's gg ofc. But unlike yasuo, he dosn't have a stat boost (like 2x crit). He will have to get those stats himself.

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

{quoted}

If he gets to 5 items it's gg ofc. But unlike yasuo, he dosn't have a stat boost (like 2x crit). He will have to get those stats himself.

Yi has pseudo crit passive (that can crit), gets bonus AD for free and on-hit true dmg. He doesn't even need the ult AS, if they give him decent AS per level (his current is low, because of the ulti steroid and you still pretty much build AS regardless of the ult and are using it only for chasing lategame).

RainbowIcee3 votes

you mean when a fed yi has a morgana supporting him? yea it is the horror.

Penns9 votes

Doesnt seem that bad to me tbh, Im more worried about the like 4000 range knockup engage https://youtu.be/82uHC8YbxFw?t=1m4s

Glory ln Death10 votes

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Brittle effect on two of Ornn's abilities, which will increase the length of immobilizing CC (stuns, snares, roots) on the target. Imagine a Morgana Q with an extra 0.5 - 1 second duration.

AmazoX5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=77HIyYsQ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-08-07T18:43:46.364+0000)

Imagine a Morgana Q combined with brittle effect = The enemy immobilized for eternity.*

Fixed it for you.

Ben Sharpio9 votes

they've basically forgot about melee champions at this point. everything has so much mobility lately they forget that there are champions that cant jump around everywhere

Legacy Hydralpha3 votes

they've basically forgot about melee champions at this point. everything has so much mobility lately they forget that there are champions that cant jump around everywhere

Most of the mobility champs that got released recently are melee. Camille, Kayn, and Kled all have at least two spells that enhance mobility. But a lot of older melee champs may not be as mobile.

Teridax689 votes

I'd be interested in a melee-only, resist-based item with an item that would grant temporary unstoppability, i.e. immunity to crowd control, or a similar effect that would allow tanks and fighters to resist CC at key moments without it working on ranged champions or assassins. I find it very strange that mages and marksmen both receive powerful counters to crowd control (Banshee's Veil and Mercurial Scimitar), and even supports get to access Mikael's Crucible as an extra cleanse for the marksman, yet tanky classes, who are the most exposed to CC and often in greatest need of resisting it, have no such dedicated effect.

To a larger degree, I think CC in League might need a pass in how it's applied, as I feel there's too much crowd control in the game, and too much of it has very little counterplay against enemies in melee range. Morgana's Q, for example, is really interactive against a ranged opponent, who can see it coming and move out of the way, but offers nothing of the sort to melee enemies, who get caught instantly in a 3-second root. Tanks and juggernauts get a bad rap for having kits that punish enemies simply for being near them, yet that is the same problem that affects a whole bunch of abilities, especially skillshots.

A lot of the game's counterplay feels like it presumes that interactions happens between two ranged opponents at some distance from each other, and doesn't at all account for how melee champions end up dealing with those effects. Giving melee champions better tools to deal with abilities and CC could help mitigate the issue, but the only way to solve it is going to be by making sure each champion remains interactive even when in melee range of their opponent.

CithriaC3 votes

Not to invalidate or counter your point- imagine that item on Yi or even a rare Kayle.

Teridax682 votes

For sure, that is exactly the kind of abuse case I'd want to avoid. This I think is also one of the core problems with itemization: we've reached a point where it's clear that some items are meant to be used only by certain classes, yet the framework is such that anyone can equip practically any item if they have the gold for it, and thereby abuse its effects. Even if the item only offered pure resists alongside its active, that could still be enough to put it at risk of getting bought by squishies with heals and shields, e.g. Ekko, Kayle, Yi, and so on.

One potential gate to this, albeit a super-clunky one, could be to only have the active unlock once above a certain max health threshold, but in the end it just goes to show that itemization in League operates very differently from its current intended function, offering "choices" that are no longer seen as innovative or exciting, but rather abusive and restrictive to design overall.

RizHippoKhan1 votes

well not melee only but the active will be melee only

Champion Skin1 votes

It could be interesting but some champions might make it a bit too strong.... though then again that might also because they are over-tuned but kept in check by being crippled by CC (this would also make Ghost way better... since increased movement speed does nothing when you are cc'ed)

Like Tryndamere... his ult is really powerful.... but often most of the duration is wasted because of enemy CC

NineTailedMystic7 votes

Buff Merc's back to 35%? Tank item with an active that grants x% Tenacity for y seconds?

AirKingNeo7 votes

Give Sterak's Gage +30% tenacity. Make it effect knockups.

Horse Grenades7 votes

It's a real concern how much CC they shove on every new kit.

JackMcSnipeyz6 votes

make QSS for tanks. Give it tank stats so carries wont use it or will suffer from buying it. other than that, maybe buff tenacity of merc's treads? idk

Sasogwa17 votes

{quoted}

make QSS for tanks. Give it tank stats so carries wont use it or will suffer from buying it. other than that, maybe buff tenacity of merc's treads? idk

The problem of melee champions is not cleansing one particular CC to not get caught out, like an assassin or ad carry would like. They are flooded with crowd control, and rather tanky, that's why they want tenacity. QSS'ing one thing when you're swarmed with melee crowd control is useless, especially since the policy of Riot for "balanced crowd control" is "easier to hit the closer you are to the target", aka "shits on melee, praise the ranged/mobile champs overlords".

We need merc treads back to 35%, and it would be good if it affected also knockups (by making them faster : you fall on the ground more quickly). OR actually have an item/stat that's like tenacity for knockups, like, idk (i'm saying random stuff) : Helm of gravity X price Y stats Unique passive : you fall to the ground 35% faster under the effects of knockups. Displacements are reduced by 35%. (note : displacements include fling, alistar W, lee sin ult etc.)

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

The problem is overflowing game with tenacity (anything above 40% IMO) would make a LOT of small CC useless, that's the reason there is no anti knock up stat, it would make some champ's knockups not work (or barely). QSS would let you choose to cleanse the hardest CC, the one that you need just before you're about to get the squishy. Maybe add longer movespeed buff to it? idk

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

And right now a lot of champs barely work because of displacements and knockups. Every tried to get onto the Caitlyn with janna/thresh?

Edit: With kled for example.

Rexxiee6 votes

Juggernauts are supposed to be weak to kiting sorry, and that includes CC.

But jax/irelia/melee carries/assassins do need some kind of way to deal with cc stacking.

Malicious Metal51 votes

ADC's are supposed to be weak to burst but they can itemize against it with BT, GA and DD.

TheSingularity1 votes

Also item 3071 item 3053 item 3046 item 3139 item 3156 item 3047

PePsiLemoNN2 votes

Nobody is talking about ADC's here tho

The5lacker10 votes

But we are talking about role weakness and the existence of items to address those weaknesses.

DrCyanide3 votes

The class with too many weakness negating tools should not be held up as an example of what items should look like though.

The5lacker2 votes

I don't think they have too many weakness negating tools. The more important part is that those tools, themselves, have appropriate trade-offs, which I think ADC itemization is largely good for.

The major problem with ADCs at the moment is that they're doing their main job (Killing people real good) a bit too well a bit too early. Access to Guardian Angel and Mercurial Scimitar isn't what's causing that.

KnightOfEloHell2 votes

Yeah I hardly see an adc build GA or Mercurial.

I will build it tho.

But as a Mord bot player I do well early, than get cc'd to hell, perma ganked the rest of the game, and I can't even catch the carry because they have too much cc.

LIKE

EVEN IF I HAVE STORMRAIDERS PROCCED, USE MERCURIAL SMITAR ACTIVE,USE GHOST AND EXAUST, AND RUSHED MERC TREADS I STILL CAN'T CATCH THE CARRY BECAUSE OF ALL THE BLOODY CC!!

I'm not even joking this happened a few days ago. I was against lux ashe or lux Cait bot, I don't remember.

And now this new champion ugh, and to boot I can't even control Morde ghosts anymore with R or alt after the first command. I have to walk into melee range for it to attack something other than minions. :(

WoonStruck5 votes

And make its unique passive negatively interact with things like QSS and BV.

Also, make it so ADCs/assassins won't abuse it without significant repercussions.

And maybe "using a mobility spell places this on CD for X seconds"

Rexxiee1 votes

{quoted}

And make its unique passive negatively interact with things like QSS and BV.

Also, make it so ADCs/assassins won't abuse it without significant repercussions.

And maybe "using a mobility spell places this on CD for X seconds"

Except assassins are invalidated even harder by cc since they are melee AND squishy, unlike bruisers or juggernauts, they need even more help.

Partholonian8 votes

But assassins are supposed to be countered by CC. If you're going in on a squishy target by themselves, good. If you're going in on a squishy target with Alistar standing next to them, not good. You don't deserve to get a kill in that situation, maybe not even to survive. Make better decisions next time.

Not to mention that in order for Ornn to be at all relevant to the discussion it would have to be Ornn and Alistar standing next to the guy you're trying to assassinate. And you want Riot to let you succeed at that 1v3? Do you have any idea how broken that would be?

Bruisers often struggle to find their role in a teamfight to balance the fact that being great soloers makes them splitpush monsters (Jax, for example). Trying to dive front to back SHOULD be risky; flanking is great but hard to pull off. That's fair given their other strengths as a class.

Divewing3 votes

As a minor add on, Assassins don't need this because they have tools they should be using to avoid CC in the first place.

LyingOnLine4 votes

Frankly, I'd just be fine with something to finally give us duration reduction and distance reduction on knockups and knockbacks.

Eve Main3 votes

Rito pls bring back Zephyr item 3070

TonyTonyMordecai3 votes

If they bring back zephyr but make it a component that builds into a fighter item and then a tank item, that would be cool. Like have the component give some resistance and/or health and then the passive, sort of like what they did with last whisper.

the weeaboo2 votes

id sacrifice my firstborn for a BKB in league...

macromite2 votes

Honestly there should probably just be a new qss upgrade. tanks need a new mr item (There are only three full mr items and two of those are very situational) And Melee divers and juggernauts want for more capacity of dealing with cc.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Dota's Black King bar pops to mind.

Once more, as this was said in a different thread.

BKB over my dead fucking body.

Mordepool2 votes

{quoted}

BKB over my dead fucking body.

That's how must arguments with Juggernauts end 😋

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