What if there was 2700 gold items that nullified 30% of an attackers bonus AD?

Irelia Bot·Dec 11, 2016·74 votes·4,227 views

And what if there was 2 variations, one being thornmail and the other building from warden's mail to reduce attack speed.

By the logic of LW items being balanced, items like this would be also be able to be balanced and "healthy" for the game.

Effectively bypassing a large part of a champs bought stats.

All of the arguments in favor of Last Whisper items would also apply to an item like this. Including things like it not being hidden power.

138 Comments

LeeerzeichenDec 11, 201625 votes

This stat already exists, it's called armor.

IcyPepperDec 11, 20166 votes

http://i.imgur.com/y1G5HiG.png

Sona x RubickDec 11, 201618 votes

yeah, i think we should have a new stat:

armor penetration armor

reducing armor penetration by 30%

Jinzo TorranceDec 11, 20166 votes

Ok, but we have to gut every base damage and ratio tanks have for making that item, you know they don't actually pay for doing damage like an ADC does, and ADC stays squishy in return.

Baron of BreadDec 11, 20167 votes

Yeah, except tanks don't actually do that much damage.

Jinzo TorranceDec 11, 20162 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08TsxoyZvhw&feature=youtu.be&t=214

3:34 minutes

EndlessSorcererDec 11, 201613 votes

You seem to be ignoring that:

Nautilus had four completed items (Sunfire Cape, Iceborn Gauntlet and Thornmail providing additional damage)
Yasuo had two and a half completed items (minimal lifesteal and MR, no armor penetration)
Nautilus was a level above Yasuo

With that much of a lead, most champions would be able to do the same without much of an issue.

Jinzo TorranceDec 11, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=72FoxrOy,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-12-11T19:34:11.847+0000) except tanks don't actually do that much damage.

EndlessSorcererDec 11, 201613 votes

Compared to damage-dealers, tanks don't deal that much damage.

However, every champion has base damage and it can hurt rather badly when a champion only has their base defenses.

If the Nautilus were replaced with an fighter, assassin, mage or marksmen who had the same lead (4 items to 2.5 items), Yasuo would have died within one or two seconds.

Jinzo TorranceDec 11, 20162 votes

I don't think marksmen and mages take only 137 damage from Yasuo critical AA (while he has also an IE) though.

RatbertDec 11, 20168 votes

I don't think carries take 5 seconds to 100-25 yasuo either. Naut hit everything as well, so if it was a carry that hit everything, yasuo probably would have just died flat out.

Kharn SkyshatterDec 11, 20164 votes

I don't get why they couldn't have attached the melee only tag onto Sterak's if Marksmen were abusing it and see from there if the item needs to get nerfed after its on its proper class or not.

PPPPPPPPPPPP270Dec 11, 20164 votes

I don't think you understand how scaling works.

In the end offense has to outscale defense. It's needed to end the game. This way games don't end when someone else runs out of mana or infinitely outsustain someone in long drawn out fights. In shorter fights a mistake is much more detrimental than longer fights.

TequilaZombieDec 11, 20165 votes

Offense outscales defense in League with or without the presence of the LW line. However, the LW has a really unfun aspect for anyone playing a tank character. It completely bypasses almost half of your armor purchases. The offense vs defense thing stops being an arms race. After a LW is bought, a tanky character has to build almost twice as much armor to have the same effectiveness it would have against an oponent without it. It just feels horrible for tanks to have 5-7k worth of stats completely neglected by a 2700 item which also has other uses.

Praetor NotoriasDec 12, 20162 votes

Match history says I play tanks 80% of the time (I didn't know, never really thought about it till they put that thingy in the client) and I can tell you that nothing worries me more than the atomic doomsday clock of that game timer steadily ticking upwards. By minute 25, if we don't have a clear advantage and an objective oriented team that is taking objectives and pushing the mini-snowballs from winning fights or outright snowballing, then I know in about 3 minutes I am going to be a like those little pull string fireworks where I go in pull the string and pop my paper stuffing out at them and then I'm done and it will be difficult to win.

As a result of this, I loathe having to build a lot of armor because I know it will be gold that becomes useless. I build armor and more health now but they have that BoRK which does the same thing pretty much. Combined with LW it's like you barely exist at all.

I have found that building offensive items when the AD carries become a problem or before they do can change the dynamic of a teamfight. It makes those paper stuffings into thumbtacks and gives them a reason to not ignore me. But it's still a timer where my usefullness will steadily diminish the closer it gets to minute 30:00 when the lategame hypercarries kick in.

Where as a utility mage only grows in usefulness as a support, the tank support hits their stride late early-game to late mid-game and goes down hill from there.

But I am getting frustrated in the number of games I see ad's and melee fighters not getting tank-shredders when laned against one or if the enemy team has two or more tanks or bruisers. That's even more frustrating. I'd rather see lifesteal nerfed than tank-shredders removed and that's with those items fucking me in the ass on the regular.

SkylarkeDec 12, 20164 votes

Except it takes time for offense to outscale defense. On any standard build, the earliest you're going to see a LW upgrade is 3rd item, which means giving up a second AS item or lifesteal. By the 4th or 5th item (when they're effectively full build) it's perfectly rational to assume that tanks are going to get shredded and if you've had the advantage but failed to press it in the 35+ min it does take to get to that time then you do deserve to lose.

ZT XperimentorDec 12, 20161 votes

Time? Sure . . . if riot didn't add so many ways to snowball out of control.

SkylarkeDec 12, 20162 votes

You're neglecting that when a team snowballs their tanks will snowball too. And defensive items are much cheaper on average than offensive ones which mean they reach their maximum power level much quicker.

RivuoDec 11, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=72FoxrOy,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-12-11T17:36:58.399+0000)

And what if there was 2 variations, one being thornmail and the other building from warden's mail to reduce attack speed.

By the logic of LW items being balanced, items like this would be also be able to be balanced and "healthy" for the game.

Effectively bypassing a large part of a champs bought stats.

All of the arguments in favor of Last Whisper items would also apply to an item like this. Including things like it not being hidden power.

Sure Irelia bot, As an adc main, I will allow you to have an item that reduces my autos damage by 30%

Just as long as i get to have an item that reduces your true damage by 30%

Sound fair? Irelia bot?

Irelia BotDec 11, 201624 votes

{quoted}

Sure Irelia bot, As an adc main, I will allow you to have an item that reduces my autos damage by 30%

Just as long as i get to have an item that reduces your true damage by 30%

Sound fair? Irelia bot?

considering the existence of 2 items that reduce bonus armor by 45% yes it does sound fair.

RivuoDec 11, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=72FoxrOy,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-12-11T19:20:48.932+0000)

considering the existence of 2 items that reduce bonus armor by 45% yes it does sound fair.

item 3047 item 3143

Do the job just ask you ask.

The rest of the armor applys.

Educate yourself goldie.

BroreliaDec 11, 201628 votes

I didn't know that ninja Tabi reduced enemy bonus AD by 45%.

TequilaZombieDec 11, 201614 votes

{quoted}

Do the job just ask you ask.

The rest of the armor applys.

Educate yourself goldie.

item 3006 item 3031

Do the job just ask you ask.

The rest of the Damage applys

Educate yourself

All of the arguments in favor of Last Whisper items would also apply to an item like this.

He was right

Don't tell anyone to educate themselves if you're going to have two mistakes on your post.

"Do the job just ask you ask." "applys"

RivuoDec 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Do the job just ask you ask.

The rest of the Damage applys

Educate yourself

Then you buy randuins and ninja tabi ( Like i said ) And 10% crit damage is removed from that extra 50% so now you're at 40% crit damage while ninja tabi removes 12% of damage from basic attacks which is more then what the IE amplifies for without lord dom.

How is bronze 1 btw?

TequilaZombieDec 11, 201618 votes

How is bronze 1 btw?

Much better than illiteracy. We're able to properly convey ideas. It's great! You should join us!

RivuoDec 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Much better than illiteracy. We're able to properly convey ideas. It's great! You should join us!

Yeah... Lets talk about literacy in a video game.

Lets also talk about Ph.D degrees in Detroit

TequilaZombieDec 11, 20167 votes

Well, judging by the common stereotype of the place, I'd say that instructing it's inhabitants about the advantages of getting a Ph.D and working for a career rather than turning to crime or staying at low end jobs might be a great thing to do. I'm honestly surprised at how much of a humanitarian you are.

RivuoDec 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well, judging by the common stereotype of the place, I'd say that instructing it's inhabitants about the advantages of getting a Ph.D and working for a career rather than turning to crime or staying at low end jobs might be a great thing to do. I'm honestly surprised at how much of a humanitarian you are.

You know when someone completely voids the point you were trying to make to prove their own.

Yeah thats you.

Even monkeys know when they are wrong.

TequilaZombieDec 11, 20167 votes

Actually there was a study released a while back showing that monkeys usually won't acknowledge when they are wrong (or doing something wrong). I'm sorry I can't provide you a link. I'm terribly sorry that your ability to keep up with new researches are as terrible as your writting capacity. If you ever need any help producing a piece of text, you can ask me for help, both in regards of grammar and with some fact checking.

RivuoDec 11, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Bears Dont CareDec 12, 20168 votes

{quoted}

There was a study released a while back

Oh nice

You know doctors used to say cigarettes were healthy in commercials a while ago?

Glad you believe everything with no evidence or proof. Monkey.

The standards regarding peer reviewed journals has significantly improved since that time period. Your argument is void.

Papa AndreiDec 12, 20163 votes

I love it when the intelligent people come onto the boards xD

MrHaZeYoDec 13, 20161 votes

You were Silver last year and your talking trash to someone in Brz or Gold?

Seems kinda weird lol.

RivuoDec 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You were Silver last year and your talking trash to someone in Brz or Gold?

Seems kinda weird lol.

I ended the season plat 1 on my main account.

I would not bring up rank if i was silver

MrHaZeYoDec 13, 20161 votes

Then why post on that account?

RivuoDec 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Then why post on that account?

Pretty funny when someone tries to bring up my silver rank and then i hit em with the diamond placement main acc :}

MokkunDec 11, 20163 votes

It's called armor, it already reduces physical damage. It actually does work, whatever you may claim.

That said, Riot has specifically stated that the goal is that late game, damage out-paces tankiness. They want fights and games to end. The balance is tuned to favor being able to kill people. In a 6 item world, tanks become vulnerable again. (Well... somewhat vulnerable. When your effective health exceeds 10k, it still takes awhile to die, the difference is that your time to die is under 10 seconds when focused)

Irelia BotDec 11, 20163 votes

Think of this as a counter bonus AD like Last whisper is a counter to bonus armor.

ShadòwDec 11, 20162 votes

item 3143 ?

i mean, aren't you already

bypassing a large part of a champs bought stats

by buying Armor in the first place?

Hella KaiserDec 11, 20165 votes

yeah but AD champs have items that can reduce your armor by 45% so you buy 1000 armor but you really have only 550. this means that your armor is not gold efficient while their items are.

Raj Te Lag CompDec 11, 20167 votes

Don't forget black cleaver too.

Papa AndreiDec 12, 20161 votes

Darius item 3071 item 3035

NineTailedMysticDec 12, 20161 votes

Doesn't Darius get 45% pen off of Apprehend too?

TheTrueQuarianDec 12, 20162 votes

i think its only 25% but its still dumb

DepártDec 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=72FoxrOy,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-12-11T17:36:58.399+0000)

And what if there was 2 variations, one being thornmail and the other building from warden's mail to reduce attack speed.

By the logic of LW items being balanced, items like this would be also be able to be balanced and "healthy" for the game.

Effectively bypassing a large part of a champs bought stats.

All of the arguments in favor of Last Whisper items would also apply to an item like this. Including things like it not being hidden power.

TL;DR~~~ Tanks are designed to be outscaled and these items exist so that tanks aren't the only ones alive at the end of fights, which would result in average game times of likely 50 min+

I have a feeling you're just posting on here for the sake of sounding dumb and actually do have a brain, but I'll explain anyways.

Those armor pen items scale damage in a percentage form, especially item 3036 .

They are meant to be bought mid-game or late-game to get their best damage increase, they exist to outscale tanks (which is one of their intended weaknesses).

If tanks had an equal type of item, they would never be outscaled. That means all fights would end with tanks surviving, which in turn means that no turrets will be taken, no objectives like baron would ever come out of a fight etc.

These items exist so that it gets to a point where you can no longer beat carry champions with pure stats, you have to outplay them at a point.

It's also fair to point out there is not a single tank item above 3000 gold in cost (this is counting pure tank items, not fighter items like black cleaver)

They spike off of their items quicker than other champions, this is their strength over getting outscaled later.

RintamDec 12, 20163 votes

No offence, but your argument doesn't hold water. ADCs, or Attack Damage Carries, are high DPS champions that need time and scaling to ramp up. That part is true, yes, but the problem comes when you look at their supposed weaknesses. They are supposed to be weak to assassains, high mobility champions with a lot of single target burst. However, with the current state of the game, a lot of assassains aren't viable because, with the mandatory time limit it takes for them to get their combo off, the ADC has gotten off the three autos needed to kill the assassain. Obviously, the are some exceptions to this rule, like Rengar, Zed and Kha'Zix. Ranger because his burst is so high he can kill an ADC before they can auto three times, Zed because he can play outside the range of the autos and Kha'Zix because his isolated damage gives him both burst and DPS, giving him little use in a teamfight. However, if you look at LeBlanc, who needs 1.5 seconds to kill someone, in late game she has no ability to kill an ADC simply because their is no outplaying point and clicks. In those 1.5 seconds, she has been autos three times and is dead. Tanks are supposed to disk up damage for their team, and yes, their damage is supposed to fall off, but their tankiness isn't. In an ideal world, we have rock paper scissors (with players of equal skill). AD's beat tanks, as tank shredding is part of their designed kit, tanks best assassains, as they can't be burster down and can peel for the backline, and assassains best ADCs, as their burst is faster than DPS. Obviously, this is an oversimplification, But it isn't happening. If you want to play an assassain, you almost have to play Rengar.

DepártDec 12, 20162 votes

Assassins are still Viable, there's plenty of options to pick if you want to try to shut out an adc. That doesn't mean it's always the best option, but it is an option.

Tanks are supposed to fall off in almost ever aspect later in the game, not just their damage. Their tankiness has to fall off, otherwise they don't die in reasonable amounts of time, if at all.

They are not supposed to stand in front of 6 item carries and laugh, that's not how the game works.

Marksman as a class in general hardly have arms or legs early-mid game, they're extremely weak before 3 items after all of the 1 item power spikes were nerfed. Their weaknesses currently stand true to what they have always been.

Tanks dominate early-mid, ADC dominates late.

RintamDec 12, 20162 votes

I agree with most of your points, but I do feel that tanks should be able to soak up a bit more damage late game. Right now, every class but the ADC feels useless late game. It feels very stale.

DepártDec 12, 20162 votes

Checks and balances, ADC in general has no real impact on the game before 30 minutes, their items are too expensive compared to tanks, tanks don't deserve to maintain their strength into the lategame with how easily they powerspike.

ADC has to be strong at some point in the game, late game is where they have it.

RintamDec 12, 20161 votes

Yes, they deserve to have an impact, but hey also need to have counterplay, and right now, they don't have a lot of that. And some ADCs are very strong early and late game, like Miss Fortune and Jhin. They bully extremely well, and have high single and multi-target damage in team fights from an extremely long range.