@Meddler, with preseason around the corner can we get an Update on Rylais

Malicious Metal·Oct 6, 2016·28 votes·21,887 views

Just so I know if I have to sharpen my pitchforks and find another decent Mordekaiser build.

Defends the solid spot Morde's in furiously

139 Comments

RiotMeddlerOct 7, 201628 votes

Exact changes are still under discussion. General problem statement is that it's too universal. Having all your abilities slow is something that should be a deliberate choice you opt into, and make trade offs for, not just a default item on so many AP champs. That issue's magnified by the HP given by Rylai's, given health's the most universal stat we've got (everyone can always use it, and more's always useful, even if it's not the ideal stat for a specific champ).

One of the directions we're considering is a pretty dramatic change that strips the health off entirely, replacing it with mana or something like mana+CDR. That's got some substantial cost to it, given it effectively removes Rylai's as an option for a lot of champs who have traditionally bought it. Possible it's the healthiest approach however. It might also mean we'd want to make other slowing items (Dead Man's Plate, Randuin's Omen or GLP) better options for champs no longer able to use Rylai's well.

Another possible direction's to strip AP, and possibly slow strength, off Rylai's instead. Big advantage there is that that would preserve more of its historic niche. Risk is that it remains too universal given the health, or that we have to hit it so hard in terms of AP/passive strength that it's just mediocre for everyone.

More thoughts to follow, likely around the time 6.22 (tentative Pre-Season patch) hits the PBE. Very much an ongoing discussion for us at the moment, with people arguing for a range of different approaches here.

WoonStruckOct 7, 201615 votes

You guys nerfed the passive for traditional users (single-target, moderate-low CD abilities), buffed it for non-traditional users (AoE/DoT), then nerfed the reason traditional users bought it (utility+HP on an AP item), and buffed the reason every mage in the game would want it (Highest AP outside of deathcap after all other AP items were nerfed).

How the fuck do you think adding mana/CDR to it would fix it?

Nerf the AP back down to 80, or even 60 to put it in line with other AP item nerfs. Buff the HP back to 500+. Revert the passive. Lower cost to relevant value. ** WOWIEE. THE ITEM IS FUCKING BALANCED LIKE IT WAS BEFORE YOU FUCKED WITH IT**.

Jesus, I can't believe how idiotic you guys are about your balancing now.

"LET'S DESTROY EVERYTHING THAT'S NOT WRONG WITH IT BECAUSE WE FUCKED IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE WITH AN UNNECESSARY CHANGE. CAN'T POSSIBLY ADMIT WE, YOUR RIOT OVERLORDS, HAVE MADE A MISTAKE."

Sorry, I don't normally get legitimately upset at Riot's decisions, but holy fuck this takes the cake.

Despite a few bad decisions with game balance, I never thought you were an idiot, Meddler. You've just changed my mind.

Rylai's was completely fine before you changed it in the first place. If you want to contemplate changing an item like that, look at Frozen Mallet instead. It has the same 'issues' you claim, but the only people that can successfully use it (despite one being ranged and one being melee) are ones who can abuse it to the point where everyone hates the item and the champions that can use it as a result.

RalanrOct 7, 201611 votes

I kinda have to agree here. The nerf that people want is just lowering the AP so it isn't a must have item since mages were so used to getting a lot of AP from their items before the scalings were cut.

I don't think Meddler is stupid since I'm pretty sure they're just experimenting rather than trying to get things balanced. The preseason is a giant experiment after all and they aren't going to change it now.

Meddler is just meddling with league. That's what Riot does (though they have permission so it isn't really meddling).

Toplane FencerOct 7, 201612 votes

Although I do agree with you, Rioters would probably take you a lot more seriously if you sounded calm.

Big LincolnOct 7, 20167 votes

are you going to leave mord dumpstered until he gets his VGU when you make it a mana CDR item

Malicious MetalOct 7, 20169 votes

Pretty much this.

If the item becomes no longer a viable option on Morde he'll be beyond trash. His entire kit was balanced around Rylais and it being "removed" would just make him crash and burn.

Really sad considering he's as strong as he hasn't been for a long while

The Yetii RiderOct 7, 20162 votes

Adding mana to the item doesn't prevent you from buying it if it's still good on your character. See Trinity Force Yasuo.

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20163 votes

Because Yasuo benefits from everything the item offers other than CDR and Mana extremely well.

The Yetii RiderOct 8, 20161 votes

And Mordekaiser benefits well from adding a slow to his kit.

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20164 votes

and he loses like 40% of the gold efficiency with the loss of HP. And the changes makes it so Viktor, azir and other people that shouldn't buy the item buy it.

The Yetii RiderOct 8, 20161 votes

Why shouldn't they buy it? Viktor is a battle mage after all. So is Azir. Champions that are forced to get closer than other mages and deal damage over time instead of in bursts.

And yes, Morde would lose 40% gold efficiency. That's a good thing. Manaless champions should suffer from poor gold efficiency to pay for them never running oom.

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20165 votes

Sir, do you realize Morde is balanced around the fact he has no mobility and CC too? He already can't use morello, archangel (If he could the shield would help him from getting insta cc bursted). There is no mordekaiser build viable out there without Crystal scepter unless it's a build meant for intentionally feeding. Viktor is a burst mage, his range is essentially his E. Azir is a poke mage, and an overloaded piece of shit too. Azir's range is fucking massive, he literally doesn't need to get close unless he's shurima shuffling.

Jeddy017Oct 7, 201612 votes

Well I don't know if it means anything, but I do a agree with the train of thought that Rylia's should be more of a defensive AP bruiser (aka battle mage) item that manaless champs can use. I mean something favored more by champs like AurelionSol Mordekaiser Rumble rather than Syndra Viktor Cassiopeia . Whatever changes happens to it, whether it's a revert or rework, I just hope you have the Battle Mages in mind. I know you guys are going to work on balancing champs majorly affected by the change regardless of what happens.

DeathBurstOct 7, 20162 votes

Technically, Cassio is a Battle Mage too, I think...

But I agree, Rylai should be good on short/medium range mages with low burst, and that includes a lot of champs without Mana, so I'm not fond of the Mana+CDR option mentioned by Meddler.

ZACKandATTACKOct 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Well I don't know if it means anything, but I do a agree with the train of thought that Rylia's should be more of a defensive AP bruiser (aka battle mage) item that manaless champs can use. I mean something favored more by champs like rather than . Whatever changes happens to it, whether it's a revert or rework, I just hope you have the Battle Mages in mind. I know you guys are going to work on balancing champs majorly affected by the change regardless of what happens.

I didn't have a problem with old Cassiopeia building Rylai, because she actually had to land a spell to permaslow. But now new just e spams for perma slow and there isn't much you can do vs it.

TigratikusOct 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Well I don't know if it means anything, but I do a agree with the train of thought that Rylia's should be more of a defensive AP bruiser (aka battle mage) item that manaless champs can use. I mean something favored more by champs like rather than . Whatever changes happens to it, whether it's a revert or rework, I just hope you have the Battle Mages in mind. I know you guys are going to work on balancing champs majorly affected by the change regardless of what happens.

What ever the changes are Riot should NOT convert HP to CDR/Mana. It will break Viktor Cassiopeia Syndra Orianna even more since they would much rather have the CDR/Mana instead of the HP. All 4 of these champs like to spam abilities/have high mana costs. Giving them the ability to cast more spells/more often on top of the slow will just make them the old Azir

Malicious MetalOct 7, 201655 votes

Giving it Mana and CDR would not only increase it being bought on the certain champion demographic it's been problematic on but would screw over some of the mana less casters that really like it in their build ( Vladimir Rumble Mordekaiser )

The problem with it isn't exactly the health in my opinion as most mages don't have the resistances to back it up and it thus scales rather bad into the later stages of the game but it offering both high ap and health and being constantly rushed is a real problem.

A lot of people complain about Rylais on champions like Cassiopeia and Azir who would become even greater annoyances if it becomes a big ticked damage item, a slowing one nonetheless that makes it not only hard for their opponents to escape but give them strong damage to back the slow up.

If it were to be tankier and less AP centric it would take those who buy it more time to stick on the opponent to get their damage off but have longer to kill them due to it simply not offering a lot in terms of offensive power.

That's what most people complain about. It's not the health, it's the slow being tied to such a big ticked damage item that makes it hard to actually avoid the damage since you're being slowed to a crawl.

The latter option would really work out IMO seeing that it's what it used to be in the past and would make it an OPTION for a lot of champions rather than what will almost become a necessity on a smaller champion pool (squishy mages) something along the lines of 60-80 AP and 400+ health would be really cool with chipping off power off the AoE slow for example, changing it into something like 30%

Another idea, that would be kinda funky would be making it TWO items! Having one component that builds into either A) a tankier utility option with a stronger slow but a lot less AP B) the mana/cdr one with no defensive stats but more AP

HazyCloud7Oct 7, 201617 votes

Splitting into two items would be a great way to ensure no class of champions gets screwed. I like that idea a lot.

The AbactorOct 7, 20164 votes

Me too! I made an attempt at an example for this a little while ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/55fmqi/idea_for_a_rylais_rework/

I think that Metal's suggestion is actually better, to make two items "complete" into a rylais with whatever new passive it gets. Before I was trying to keep Rylais passive mostly as is, but just make it so that you can't get it very early on.

edit:clarity

FjiordorOct 7, 20165 votes

The other big problem is, that there are very few alternatives for mages who want big ap items

TyrekGoldenspearOct 7, 20165 votes

The only one you need is the fedora. item 3089

Malicious MetalOct 7, 20162 votes

Not like blue buff also increased ap by 15%

And don't try to tell me people actually built Rylais AND Ludens.

Most people would just replace Rylais with ludens and get the same amount of AP

XonraOct 7, 20162 votes

While losing all of the utility. I play a lot of rumble and that alow helps keep the damage on champs that are faste, or dash all over the world (or keeps them from just dadhing out of my ult). Ludens is good for those bursty mages, but does eff all as a replacement for Rumble.

AveriaOct 7, 20161 votes

Luden's wouldn't be a huge failure for rumble. His low C/D's and need for movement speed are both good with the item. Surely it's worse than Rylai's and I would never argue against that, but Rylai's as it stands is way way too busted on every champion involved.

Honestly if Rylai's didn't synergize with Liandry's you'd probably not buy it as often anyway before the MYMU. It just so happens to double Liandry's damage, that synergizes with Rumble's Q.

He could also easily get away with just buying proto>liandry>zhonya>dcap>void and still be insanely powerful.

XonraOct 8, 20163 votes

item 3116 helps Rumble stick on people and actually get all his damage off.

item 3285 is NOT a Rumble item. It just gives some burst, and Rumble is not a burst champion, he is a sustain damage/dot champion.

So yes, item 3285 over item 3116 would in fact be a failure on Rumble. He does NOT need movement speed on an item outside of boots, as he already has his W for that. The little splash damage thing does little to nothing for Rumble. It currently has the same AP, but non of the same utility, and no health (which while not his number one stat, it helps, him stay alive just long enough to get off all his damage if he is going 1v1 in lane).

Also you are wrong, again, as item 3151 has nothing to do with why I want item 3116 . helps keep people in his ult, that otherwise just walk out of it like nothing happened, helps keep you on them if you Q them or forces them to have to flash out. has very little to do with it, and this is from a Mastery 7 Rumble.

Also, it isn't just about "power". It doesn't matter how much damage you do if you can't stick onto someone long enough to actually do it (hence the issue with it being derped down for Morde as well). You are clearly missing the point, and the dps on it has little to nothing to do with it to be quite honest in comparison to the sticking power and utility on champions that have little to none otherwise and NEED it.

BonusgoldOct 8, 20163 votes

Can we do it different. as somewhere stated below is the following point: Spammy / Refreshing with **speedboosts **champions like Cassiopeia Viktor Malzahar are a problem here - same issue as with Gnar & item 3022 .

In my shitty silver oppinion, Rylais and Mallet are FINE. They need a cap on how often you can refresh that slow. something like diminishing returns slow 1 40 % slow 2 35 % and so on.

item 3022 got already nerfed. item 3116 needs a slight hit to AP so more Mages consider item 3027 as their go to Item - as atm it gets completely outclassed.

ScoroctOct 7, 20161 votes

Hey this is an idea I just had for maybe helping make Rylais less all around good and also making Luden's better which is an item also in a sorta bad spot due to having a passive that quickly gets outscaled by other items.

For one, Rylais loses some AP to be in the 60-80 range and keeps its passive (for the most part at least) and the large amount of HP. Probably would get a slight cost reduction with the loss of HP but now it makes a meaningful tradeoff of being the utility/tank mage option.

Second, we make Luden's a better option for the mages that just want dmg and better kiting potential and whenever Luden's passive is procced they get a burst of movespeed that rapidly decays over 2 or 3 seconds. This still lets mages have a kiting option to survive without completely crushing the dreams of every melee champion in League of Legensds. It also could be an option for AP bruisers that want to sacrifice tankiness for dmg and chase potential when snowballing.

This may be completely awful idea but I figured I'd mention it.

Lord Phazanor Oct 26, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=70wQmmRU,comment-id=00030004,timestamp=2016-10-07T05:38:42.448+0000)

Giving it Mana and CDR would not only increase it being bought on the certain champion demographic it's been problematic on but would screw over some of the mana less casters that really like it in their build ( )

The problem with it isn't exactly the health in my opinion as most mages don't have the resistances to back it up and it thus scales rather bad into the later stages of the game but it offering both high ap and health and being constantly rushed is a real problem.

A lot of people complain about Rylais on champions like Cassiopeia and Azir who would become even greater annoyances if it becomes a big ticked damage item, a slowing one nonetheless that makes it not only hard for their opponents to escape but give them strong damage to back the slow up.

If it were to be tankier and less AP centric it would take those who buy it more time to stick on the opponent to get their damage off but have longer to kill them due to it simply not offering a lot in terms of offensive power.

That's what most people complain about. It's not the health, it's the slow being tied to such a big ticked damage item that makes it hard to actually avoid the damage since you're being slowed to a crawl.

The latter option would really work out IMO seeing that it's what it used to be in the past and would make it an OPTION for a lot of champions rather than what will almost become a necessity on a smaller champion pool (squishy mages) something along the lines of 60-80 AP and 400+ health would be really cool with chipping off power off the AoE slow for example, changing it into something like 30%

Another idea, that would be kinda funky would be making it TWO items! Having one component that builds into either A) a tankier utility option with a stronger slow but a lot less AP B) the mana/cdr one with no defensive stats but more AP

Just hire that guy already and let him rework Mordekaiser! Make him great again! He's playable at the moment, yes, but he still is so less enjoyable than he was :'(

AptestOct 7, 20161 votes

I feel that the correct response is:

"you need to do damage? look for another item".

therefore, AP needs to be nerfed, not to 80, but to 40.

WoonStruckOct 7, 20166 votes

You're on crack if you think it needs to be 40.

AptestOct 7, 20161 votes

My opinion is that there should be a real and painful trade off for having this utility. doing damage is what all the mid laners want to do. so that's where i think they need to hurt.

80 is "oh you lose a little bit here and there". 40 is "fuck, i have to trade away my damage".

Malicious MetalOct 7, 20164 votes

60 would be ideal imo

macdshiftyOct 7, 20163 votes

Meanwhile at Riot

So what you're saying is just nerf the hp?

TequilaZombieOct 8, 20161 votes

I'd be fine with having it at 40, assuming the hp got boosted to make up for it. Hell, maybe even ~~do I dare to utter it?~~ add a stronger slow if that's the case.

Make it a battle mage item, not a "I wanna be tanky while doing a lot of damage and providing CC" item for not-so-squishy mages.

WoonStruckOct 7, 20164 votes

You're thinking in the wrong terms.

Remember when Black Cleaver was picked up by every AD champion in the game? They didn't nerf its damage by 60 fucking percent. They slightly lowered the AD and upped the HP.

Like MM says, 60 would be ideal. Its much more likely that it'd be 80 than 40, still.

AptestOct 7, 20161 votes

Q: Why do you believe RCS needs a "this item is overall too powerful we need to trim it down a bit so that the people who get it don't scale as hard" rather than "this item is being used differently than it is healthy for it to be used, we need to make it different so that the people who get it pay with something they really value"???

WoonStruckOct 7, 20161 votes

Because reverting it solves all of the issues. It wasn't a major damage item before they messed it up.

Considering all AP items had their AP nerfed, why wouldn't people grab it when RCS's AP was buffed by a pretty substantial amount?

Lower AP to 60, in line with all of the other AP item nerfs, buff HP. Item is fine then.

InSingedWeTrustOct 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Exact changes are still under discussion. General problem statement is that it's too universal. Having all your abilities slow is something that should be a deliberate choice you opt into, and make trade offs for, not just a default item on so many AP champs. That issue's magnified by the HP given by Rylai's, given health's the most universal stat we've got (everyone can always use it, and more's always useful, even if it's not the ideal stat for a specific champ).

One of the directions we're considering is a pretty dramatic change that strips the health off entirely, replacing it with mana or something like mana+CDR. That's got some substantial cost to it, given it effectively removes Rylai's as an option for a lot of champs who have traditionally bought it. Possible it's the healthiest approach however. It might also mean we'd want to make other slowing items (Dead Man's Plate, Randuin's Omen or GLP) better options for champs no longer able to use Rylai's well.

Another possible direction's to strip AP, and possibly slow strength, off Rylai's instead. Big advantage there is that that would preserve more of its historic niche. Risk is that it remains too universal given the health, or that we have to hit it so hard in terms of AP/passive strength that it's just mediocre for everyone.

More thoughts to follow, likely around the time 6.22 (tentative Pre-Season patch) hits the PBE. Very much an ongoing discussion for us at the moment, with people arguing for a range of different approaches here.

Keep Singed in mind when making these changes. =[

Critmaster GarenOct 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Keep Singed in mind when making these changes. =[

singed existed and was playable before rylais was broken and worked on his poison.

InSingedWeTrustOct 7, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=70wQmmRU,comment-id=000300120000,timestamp=2016-10-07T10:53:18.778+0000)

singed existed and was playable before rylais was broken and worked on his poison.

A million other items and iterations of Singed existed too, so can we revert those back? Or can we just stop pretending that reworking THE core item on Singed since Season 2-3 isn't going to have a major impact on gameplay?

Critmaster GarenOct 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

A million other items and iterations of Singed existed too, so can we revert those back? Or can we just stop pretending that reworking THE core item on Singed isn't going to have a major impact on gameplay?

if it hits him too hard, sure he should be compensated.

but im really anoyed by this point of people pretending a certain champion needs this broken version of rylais to function at all, when most of them have been competitive at some point when the item wasnt ridiculous.

InSingedWeTrustOct 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=70wQmmRU,comment-id=00030012000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-07T11:45:59.852+0000)

if it hits him too hard, sure he should be compensated.

but im really anoyed by this point of people pretending a certain champion needs this broken version of rylais to function at all, when most of them have been competitive at some point when the item wasnt ridiculous.

It surely will hit him hard, it's been core for years. I'm equally annoyed at you pretending like certain portions of the item make or break certain champions functionality. Like the slow portion of the item for Singed.

It Hertz When IPOct 7, 20162 votes

Before everyone flips their shit, maybe we could all stop and consider that perhaps if Rylai's becomes a terrible build option for him, that Riot could add a slow component to his poison (maybe while his ult is active).

XonraOct 7, 20162 votes

They won't though. Riot wont compensate Morde or Singed for anything at this point and to pretend otherwise is being naive.

It Hertz When IPOct 7, 20164 votes

I prefer the term "woefully optimistic".

cocacolalipsOct 7, 20161 votes

Or just remove it entirely? Do we really need more slows in the game when every single champion is already built with multiple sources of crowd control?

Cam0denOct 7, 20166 votes

Morde has cc? Unless you consider death cc then no he doesn't. Rylais is a required item on him along with probobelt because he has no cc or gap closer.

cocacolalipsOct 8, 20161 votes

Mordekaiser is garbage, he is getting reworked.

TequilaZombieOct 8, 20161 votes

You don't wanna go down that road on a Malicious Metal thread.

cocacolalipsOct 8, 20161 votes

That's true, that's why I answered the Red and not the OP.