Can we start actually listening to players in regards to major champion changes?

InSingedWeTrust·Apr 12, 2015·10 votes·952 views

So we don't end up with more Cassiopea, Veigar, and Evelynn fiascoes. Once PBE changes land, and people TELL you it's not going to work.. they're not lying most of the time. What's the point of even asking for player feedback if it goes largely ignored when it comes to balance changes? Having champions unplayable for months at a time because you nerfed them to the ground and are very slowly buffing them up to being playable again is not fun. When you completely alter a champion's identity in the name of "balance" and "compensation" it's not fun. At all.

Can we actually start believing that maybe, just maybe the playerbase has great ideas that the balance team is overlooking?

19 Comments

Aurelius MaximusApr 12, 20156 votes

The "playerbase" usually has no clue what is going on tbh

If they did they would be right more, and if you are participate in any discussion with most players, you would hear them be wrong most of the time.

Yulen XoshxiusApr 12, 20154 votes

They listened when it was LeeSin I thought

Edge of DaybreakApr 12, 20153 votes

Only if they listen to the masters and challenger players.

Lime JoshApr 12, 20152 votes

whose opinion would they listen to? half says OP, half dosn't, does elo mean anything(higher elos=more experience knowledge of the game so higher elo>lower elo)??

MartyrofsandApr 12, 20152 votes

Your own thread shows why they really shouldn't. Cassio is more viable than ever now at all levels and is drawing several bans on the pro scene, last I checked she is like 34% ban rate on the pro scene, and wins a lot of the games she is picked in.

Eve's rework also made her extremely strong, to the point of being OP and then she was nerfed and the they reworked the warding system and she was again OP and then she was nerfed again. Eve's rework was a success its the nerfs that made her crap.

Veigar is literally the only champ you got right. You should of been pointing to other reworks like Sona, who is straight up garbage and a shell of her former self in terms of impact, and Renek rework which has made him rather trash.

InSingedWeTrustApr 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Your own thread shows why they really shouldn't. Cassio is more viable than ever now at all levels and is drawing several bans on the pro scene, last I checked she is like 34% ban rate on the pro scene, and wins a lot of the games she is picked in.

Eve's rework also made her extremely strong, to the point of being OP and then she was nerfed and the they reworked the warding system and she was again OP and then she was nerfed again. Eve's rework was a success its the nerfs that made her crap.

Veigar is literally the only champ you got right. You should of been pointing to other reworks like Sona, who is straight up garbage and a shell of her former self in terms of impact, and Renek rework which has made him rather trash.

Are you even playing the same game? Sure, if a rework's success is determined by their pro scene play Cassio was a great success. If it's determined by her champion identity, then it was a disastrous failure. She's supposed to be a poison mage, but instead she's forced to be the closest thing to an ADC a mage can get to. Literally EVERYTHING is loaded into one spell on a .5s CD.

Eve's rework was a success and the nerfs made her crap.. Yes, the nerfs. The ones Riot refused to let up on? The ones they insisted were in a great direction, despite cries from the playerbase that she'd be in an even worse place?

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Sona nor Renekton, they both remain strong, from my personal experience. A well played Sona is the most oppressive thing bot lane has to offer and Renekton actually started seeing play again after his rework so I'm not sure we're playing the same game.

MartyrofsandApr 12, 20151 votes

Um the only poison Cassio has that doesn't do significant damage is her W. Her Q damage is actually very strong, especially after the E buffs it, which results in this interaction of the longer someone is poisoned the worse the effects get kinda like...real poison shocker I know. Just because you and a few others don't like it and refuse to accept it doesn't change the fact that it was successful.

Um Eve deserved every nerf she got and until riot fixes the issue of limited pink wards making stealth insanely strong she shouldn't be buffed at all. If this mandrake ward works out then we we can talk about maybe buffing eve and other stealth champs back up.

Sona and Renek are irrelevant right now. Sona's damage was gutted unless she builds AP that she simply doesn't have the gold to build. Even if she tags all 4 other players with her Q and they all AA with her to proc them her damage contribution will still be lower than what she added previously to a team fight with her past auras. Her heal is stronger but draining, she is extremely fragil and in a meta with supports like Thresh and Annie, Sona simply gets destroyed, literally if you level 2 all in a Sona as Annie and an ADC like Corki/Graves/Sivir/Lucien/Jinx it is pretty much a kill 98% of the time, with the other 2% being you screwing something up.

Renek, the early game bully and late game weakling had his early game gutted and his late game pretty damn untouched with his fury changes. If you really need me to explain the sigificance of that then you need help that is beyond the scope of what can be provided on this forum.

Hasztalan2Apr 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Your own thread shows why they really shouldn't. Cassio is more viable than ever now at all levels and is drawing several bans on the pro scene, last I checked she is like 34% ban rate on the pro scene, and wins a lot of the games she is picked in.

Eve's rework also made her extremely strong, to the point of being OP and then she was nerfed and the they reworked the warding system and she was again OP and then she was nerfed again. Eve's rework was a success its the nerfs that made her crap.

Veigar is literally the only champ you got right. You should of been pointing to other reworks like Sona, who is straight up garbage and a shell of her former self in terms of impact, and Renek rework which has made him rather trash.

Your posts shows why they shouldn't .

Casio more viable than ever. THAT DOESN'T FUCKING MEAN SHE IS GOOD FOR FUCK SAKE. Her actual gameplay is shit. She is boring. She sux. She is unintuitive. She is thematically lacking. She is a one sided- one dimensional - overly over pushed into 1 build direction and for what? Just to have a machinegun playstyle. IT's not good.

I'm asking again if i design a champ who has 4 abilities each has 1 secondcd and pressing any of them instakills ALL the entire enemy team, imagine it. Will it be a strong 1# ban material? Yes. Will it be a good champion? FUck no.

Eve is right tho nerfs was the one killing her not the rework. But Cassio as a succesful rework? Bitch pls...

MartyrofsandApr 12, 20151 votes

As I said in my other post. Just because a select few people refuse to accept that new Cass is better doesn't change the fact that she is.

To use your own example. If riot released a champ that insta-killed everyone with any of their skills would some people love it? Sure I'm sure there would be people that love picking that champ and laughing as their opponents just insta-die over and over. That wouldn't change the fact that the playstyle is toxic and in need of being changed.

Old Cass was much the same. Did I enjoy spamming my Q on people and then using the speed buff to avoid any reprisal leaving my opponents to die to the poison? Sure but was it interactive, healthy or otherwise good gameplay? Not really. Riot removed it and rightfully so. What she is now still maintains a lot of her poison feel, via the ramp up, you still get plenty of times where people try to run from a fight with you just to die to the poison. What was healthy aboht old cass is still there just because a select few won't accept doesn't change that fact.

xX420n0sc0pzXxApr 12, 20152 votes

You forgot to include Sion and Karma in you list of Champs Riot fucked up.

Lord DusteonApr 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You forgot to include and in you list of Champs Riot fucked up.

...how was Sion 'fucked up'? His lore screamed 'Juggernaut' but his best builds were pure AP (WHY THE FUCK IS THE VICIOUSLY STRONG AND POWERFUL JUGGERNAUT BUILDING LIKE A MAGE AND SHOOTING EYE BEAMS?) or pure AD. Additionally, his gameplay was EXTREMELY binary; as AP he walked up with W, Q'd you, then burst W and walked away. You had no way to counter him outside of never being in range, and Sion was basically useless past 15 minutes or if his opponent bought any MR item. As AD, he literally farmed for 40+ minutes, then waddled into range and autoattack drain tanked and hoped he lived. He had almost no active skills as AD (Shield was useless, stun was only for getting in range, and E+R were both passive effects that buffed his autoattacks) and his entire damage was useless if you had any form of peel. He was a horribly unfocused kit that did not ever satisfy what his lore promised.

Sure, new Sion is extremely different. He's also not a shitty 2 button kit that is either useless past 15 or useless until 40.

ModAcademy KaynApr 12, 20151 votes

Lol I remember you. This exact same post.

Lord DusteonApr 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lol I remember you. This exact same post.

Yeah. Figured copy paste would be much easier than rewriting the entire thing.

DJ Di0Apr 12, 20152 votes

They didn't listen to the Karma changes, they didn't listen when they were reworking Sona, nor Cass (took her like what...3 buffs in a row to get to where she is now?), the only major upset they've listened to that I can think of is Lee Sin's mini rework.

Sion is actually one of the few champs they did good with. The most recent feedback they've ignored was Veigar's rework and his E.

thinking manApr 12, 20151 votes

If they did that they'd need a subforum that's either master+ or diamond+ since this one is a joke

Edge of DaybreakApr 12, 20151 votes

Good god this is painful to read. Sona isn't even close to garbage she hasn't dropped below 50% winrate after all of these nerfs because she had so much power that she functioned well with less of it. Cassiopeia didn't have this massive identity change people have deluded themselves into believing. She still plays the same all that changed was numbers.

This I why the playerbase should have minimal say. Nothing smart comes from an open forum its basically twitch chat