Jungler In Training Looking For A Bit Of Advice

Xonra·Mar 24, 2016·4 votes·1,802 views

I'm slowly trying to pick up what are more "meta" junglers as I'm getting a lot of flack for not doing it for some reason (I'm only in silver so I don't get what the problem is no playing every LCS jungler only).

One in particular (Kindred) I'm having some issues on at different phases, and was hoping someone could give me some advice, or point me towards a good location for advice.

I'm not new to LoL by any means, but I'm just not great at ganking and counter jungler at the moment, and Kindred is throwing me off for some reason, and I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong. I'm finding that there are times where I will mark a champions (I marked a Kog for example) and when I killed it (not an assists or anyone helping) I didn't get a stack for it, and it still showed him marked afterwards.

I was also finding that in one or two games, every single one of my marks were on enemy camps only (not even rift scuttler oddly) and that seemed to be contrary to what I was lead to believe.

I'm sure most of it is me not doing something right, but was hoping someone could point me in a good direction, or even suggest when it is a good (or not so good) time to play Kindred. For example, I know I probably don't want to pick it into Lee or Grag, but are there good comps/matchups that just make a lot of sense?

Thanks ahead of time.

51 Comments

ChortleMar 24, 20166 votes

Play what you are good at. Forcing yourself to play champions that are fotm many times will prove less successful than playing non-meta champs you do well with.

Jungling is like a game of chess. It requires a certain amount of strategy and changes with each opponent. A lot of times you need to think "If I were them, what would I be doing right now?".

If you see one of your allies has pushed their lane to the enemy tower, you could be ready for a counter gank because chances are the enemy jungler will be coming to gank.

Map awareness is key to jungling. Like others have said, if you see the enemy jungler around the bottom of the map without his top side buff, that is your queue to counter jungle his top side.

Many of your choices will be made "because the enemy is doing this, I should do that". It comes easier once you start thinking and playing this way.

As for Kindred specifically, she has a strong early game that she needs to snowball off of to be relevant later. Invading the enemy jungler, counter jungling, and ganking lanes that are pushed or your allies have cc are your best choices.

If your team is lacking cc, that is not a great team comp for Kindred. You should possibly consider playing a different jungler.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

"Play what you are good at."

I think the main problem is actually finding what I am good at right now that works past "I'm comfortable with what clears fast", and that doesn't always translate into being good at pressuring lanes, ganking as a whole, or putting pressure on the enemy.

For example, I play some off the wall stuff (or at least it drives others crazy, to my usual dismay, because I enjoy it) like Yorick, because you can clear like a beast and VERY healthy. The problem is he doesn't have a very good gank ability without having a laner with good CC as he at most has a slow. He Can tower dive decently though with his ult as his essentially gives you an extra person.

"If you see one of your allies has pushed their lane to the enemy tower, you could be ready for a counter gank because chances are the enemy jungler will be coming to gank.

Map awareness is key to jungling. Like others have said, if you see the enemy jungler around the bottom of the map without his top side buff, that is your queue to counter jungle his top side."

Pretty good advice here. Thank you.

"As for Kindred specifically, she has a strong early game that she needs to snowball off of to be relevant later."

So then the idea is I really want to pick her into a matchup that would be better for getting off counter jungling easier, or even a jungle opponent I could fight early if need be?

ChortleMar 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I think the main problem is actually finding what I am good at right now that works past "I'm comfortable with what clears fast", and that doesn't always translate into being good at pressuring lanes, ganking as a whole, or putting pressure on the enemy.

If you like fast clears, I suggest Shyvana MasterYi . Lanes with CC are best for them to gank. If your allies pick champions without cc, you can still farm and gank when you feel there is a high success rate.

For example, I play some off the wall stuff (or at least it drives others crazy, to my usual dismay, because I enjoy it) like Yorick, because you can clear like a beast and VERY healthy. The problem is he doesn't have a very good gank ability without having a laner with good CC as he at most has a slow. He Can tower dive decently though with his ult as his essentially gives you an extra person.

I have seen a yorick jungle be very annoying

So then the idea is I really want to pick her into a matchup that would be better for getting off counter jungling easier, or even a jungle opponent I could fight early if need be?

I would say her pick more depends on your team's comp. Counter jungling is not something you should be doing all the time, only when you are sure you can do it safely (enemy jungler is seen elsewhere).

Enemies junglers you can 1v1 is a plus, but not a necessity. Some games you won't come in contact with the enemy jungler 1v1 (mostly farming junglers or heavy gankers) while other games you will get invaded constantly by strong early game champions (Lee Sin, Nidalee, Elise).

If you are getting invaded, change up your strategy. If they are taking your jungle, they are not prioritizing ganks or clearing their own jungle. Grab wards and work around the enemy jungler's strategy.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

Good overall advice. Much appreciated.

trash sionMar 24, 20161 votes

Just a little contribution even though I don't play Kindred much, but I do know what junglers have bad first clears and can be invaded.

Kha, Vi, Noc, Mundo, Eve, Hec, Kayle (if she doesn't know how to kite), Panth, Sej, Rammus, and Wukong are all good champs to invade because they are low on either HP or mana at their first buff/third camp.

Junglers with slow clears (many mentioned above) means you can take some of their camps before they even get to their second buff.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

Good to keep in mind. Thanks for that.

MegaLobunnyMar 24, 20162 votes

There's a delay period between marking a champion and when it activates. If you mark him right before you kill him then you likely won't get the stack. I haven't timed it exactly but I remember it being around 3-5 seconds? You can hear the mark activate so you should know what I'm talking about I believe.

As for the marks- that's how it's supposed to happen. Kindred is a high risk high reward champion. Her passive only marks enemy jungle camps, scuttle, dragon, or baron.

For fighting, kindred is a warrior enchant jungler. She has a good 1v1 ability in early game, especially at lvl 3 so she can contest camps or scuttle. Kindred is good against late game junglers or immobile ones because of their 1v1 ability. However, enemies that can burst her, cc her, or keep up with her will give her trouble.

Comp wise, well she's a marksman so having some sort of tank or someone with cc is good with her.

(Whoops I meant they mb)

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

"There's a delay period between marking a champion and when it activates. If you mark him right before you kill him then you likely won't get the stack."

This is likely the issue, and why I assumed it was me doing something wrong, but I just hadn't played the champion enough to know otherwise. I think I marked close to 3 ish second before jumping on him as I was waiting in a bush nearby and he ran when he saw me mark, then I jumped out when his pathing took him towards me.

"As for the marks- that's how it's supposed to happen. Kindred is a high risk high reward champion. Her passive only marks enemy jungle camps, scuttle, dragon, or baron."

Totally makes sense when you put it that way, and I think I was just misinformed, as I was told it was essentially "random chance for any jungle camp, including scuttler and baron/dragon etc".

Glad to hear about the warrior enchantment as well, as that was what I was trying to go for, and I kept having people tell me to go for devourer instead (some rather salty about it, which confused me a bit).

Quick question about the build pathing then, because I'm seeing a lot of different versions and I'm not sure if there is a right or wrong, or if Kindred is just that flexible. I'm seeing a lot of rapid fire cannon rush like on a lane adc, or trying to get lots of attack speed, but then I'm seeing just straight upfront ad and more ad. I'm not sure if there is a "right" way for Kindred early.

MegaLobunnyMar 24, 20162 votes

Yeah no you're right about going warrior. Devourer is really bad on Kindred. For one- their biggest strength is early game and devourer is a late game tool. By the time they manage to get fully stacked, kindred will likely be a bit behind since they were so focused on farming and anyone will be able to 1v1 them. Not to mention that devourer is weaker on ranged champions. Warrior just works really well on them.

Eh, there's not really a "right" way. When I Kindred jg, my preference is to go warrior into tier 2 boots for mobility but that's just me. Their build path is based on your own preference and the game itself. A rushed maw is really good for example if there's an enemy Elise that keeps trying to counter jg you or something (and is dealing that sweet sweet nuclear spider dmg).

Edit: Attack speed builds are really good on them if you can successfully get stacks because of their passive. If you struggle to get stacks, then mixing in more AD items can help.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

I have a feeling that some of the people poking me about with that devourer stuff are the ones who aren't aware it has long since been nerfed for ranged champions, or at least I hope that is the only reason why.

The early game stuff does make a lot more sense, and I think that is a lot of my problem with jungling in general right now I need to fix before I put more attention into Kindred. I have an admittedly hard time deciding when to go one buff gank, full clear back, gank, etc etc. Sometimes the little things turn into big things on me fast and I'm trying to learn on the fly how to access the entire map, compared to only having to deal with my lane first, and at most a roaming/tp play while still in laning phase.

"Attack speed builds are really good on them if you can successfully get stacks because of their passive. If you struggle to get stacks, then mixing in more AD items can help."

Makes perfect sense.

MegaLobunnyMar 24, 20162 votes

Learning when to gank is really difficult and honestly you can use Kindred to learn things like this. WW is a common jg suggested for new players but he can't do much pre 6 so he has little impact then. Learning how to gank or when requires a champ with either good early game or early cc. Kindred has good early game. (Amumu is another good example if you want an easier champ)

One thing I've picked up on doing is ganking lvl 2-3. People rarely expect it in the lower elos. You can gank after getting a buff and then gank. You either kill the enemy and put them behind, harass them and show presence to force them behind, or you die horribly.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

I think right now the easier the champion the better in general. I'm still trying to learn doing the right jungle specific things, and I'm sure once I pick a lot of that up I can start putting the effort into the less simple champions that have higher ceilings.

I'm likely trying to learn to much all at once, which is why the progress is going so slow, so I need to just figure out which areas to start with and spam that strategy (where applicable obviously).

My Waifu VanillaMar 24, 20161 votes

It depends. If you want a ganking jungler to practice with almost all of the tanks are your go to since they need to gank to do well since they typically have slow clear speed (Ekko/Zac are good examples since they have a relatively low floor and great ganks even pre-6 if done well).

If you want a more map awareness type jungler that relies on you being more reactive you can use the common counter junglers (Kindred, Shyv, Nid/Elise to an extent) or one of the clean-up crews who can easily punish bad ganks by their jungler or bad engages in any of the lanes (Yi and such).

There are also the level 6 powerspikers that usually become the strongest on the map at that point and usually just afk farm or do EXTREMELY easy ganks before then (like top laner under your tower easy) and then become ganking monsters (Diana, WW, Yi, and Rumble all fall into this category rather well).

Paladin 0f LifeMar 24, 20162 votes

Okay so track where enemy jungler is. If you see bot got to lane late and the support is missing health. Bingo they are bot so when you are getting buffs you can counter jungle their buff. I try to play three essential jungle types. Assassin, Tank and bruiser. This allows you to even out team comps rather than detrement your team that is trying to carry with straight damage champs if they are all AD marksmen and assassins, go for AP Tank Gragas, amumu, malphite etc to even out comp so you dont fail horribly

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

"Okay so track where enemy jungler is."

As simple as this probably sounds, it is actually really important, and I realize I'm not doing it very well. I am having trouble trying to pick up all the big and small nuances of jungling, so I have a bad habit right now of tunneling so hard to do one thing right, I am making mistakes and doing things wrong (like tracking the enemy jungler).

EndlessSorcererMar 24, 20162 votes

Some useful tips to track the enemy jungler are:

Watch the enemy top laner and bottom laners when they first enter lane. If they show up late and/or are missing health/mana, they likely leashed for their jungler.
Click on the enemy jungler when you first see them if they still have red buff and blue buff. Whichever buff has less time remaining was the first one they had taken.
Ward near camps/routes in the enemy jungle.

These are all simple and useful actions which will inform where the enemy jungler is when you are first learning the role.

After you become more experienced with the role, you can generally determine where (and when) the enemy jungler is going to be by knowing what actions you would be taking in their place. For example, you will be able to determine which of your lanes are tempting targets to be ganks and when they will be going for objectives or buffs.

Also, I would recommend warding the wall behind your buff camps when you do them on your first clear. While uncommon, some junglers will commonly invade you at your buffs on your first clear to steal them and/or to kill you and this is a simple way to prevent dying.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

All good advice here.

I think what I liked the most here was the warding suggestion, because it is probably obvious for junglers, but coming from a static lane, I think very differently in ward placement even when roaming because I'm not thinking about protecting the jungle, but thinking of protecting the lanes.

My Waifu VanillaMar 24, 20161 votes

Tracking the jungler becomes easier the more junglers you play a game or 2 of. For instance, Hecarim and Zac both have relatively bad first clears so they will either not go for a 2nd buff before recalling (and instead clear smaller camps for level 3) or be extremely low if they do try to take the buff at level 2. Either way it is typically in your best interest to keep an eye on their second buff since it is either yours if they recalled or you scare the living shit out of them.

Another example is Ekko, Nid, Lee, and quite a lot of other junglers LOVE level 3 ganks after double buffs top lane so it is fairly easy to see coming so if you clear faster then them or at roughly the same speed you can usually easily counter gank them or catch them out entirely since Ekko and Nid are usually at around half to 2/3 health and rely on the fact it is a 2v1 and burst damage for the gank to actually work.

Jungling is something you don't really learn over night and honestly just takes playing to get used to (yeah, generic advice, but it is a true statement).

Restless SlumberMar 24, 20162 votes

Teaching you how I jungle would take too long to post, so my recommendation to you is watch YouTube videos of challenger players play jungle. The player that has taught me the most is Best Rengar NA on YouTube and his twitch is twitch.tv/dekar173. This guy has taught me the most about this game out of any streamer, so I would suggest watch his jungle videos to teach you more about jungling. The best tip that I can give you without droning on in this one post would be to pay attention to the mobility/cc/damage that you, the enemy jungler, your laners, and the enemy laners have. If you have no cc and they have mobility, don't gank that lane. If it's the opposite of that, then go for it. Hope you watch some of Dekar's videos and learn from his gameplay.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

"The best tip that I can give you without droning on in this one post would be to pay attention to the mobility/cc/damage that you, the enemy jungler, your laners, and the enemy laners have."

This is likely simple to suggest, but in reality that is really helpful. It is hard to switch my mindset of what I look for in different lanes, as I play support and top otherwise, and it seemed natural that slamming the two together would make for decent parts of jungle.

I roam decently as support, have the warding and map awareness (or at least I like to believe so) that could help with jungling, and top is just getting into the mindset of helping lanes (as far as making tp plays but without the tp). I'm still having trouble with my gank timings, as far as how early, finding my champ specific power spikes on champions I don't play much (Lee Sin, Rek'Sai, and so on).

Thanks for the advice and suggestions.

AkasuiseiMar 24, 20162 votes

Sounds like you are having 2 different issues here: one technical with the marks on camps and champs, and the other about kindred play style.

the technical issues:

they fixed a bug recently with marks on champs (are you having this problem now on patch 6.6 or was this something from before?)
marks on camps - if the enemy is killing your marked camps (which is a very common thing against kindred), then there is going to be a short delay between the point when you check the camp, discovering that it has already been taken, and when a new mark appears on the next camp. so depending on when you are checking the mini map, it may appear that there are no camps marked.

game play advice:

what "phases" are you having problems with?
For match ups, kindred does best when he can roam more than the enemy jungler so picking him into Lee sin, or Shaco makes things harder (not impossible, though). For team comps, there are so many variables that go into it for your team and the enemy's team, but having someone with CC on your team is good because it allows your enemies to stay in your W longer and also makes it easier for you to kite. Its also good to have some burst damage on your team for the Kindred ult because that usually comes down to who can make the last hit when the ult runs out. If you dont have enough burst damage to do this, Kindred's ult can turn your team against you since you will just be saving the enemy.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

"Sounds like you are having 2 different issues here: one technical with the marks on camps and champs, and the other about kindred play style."

Absolutely. I think my main issue is trying to get into the mindset of counter jungling. I tend to have a reserved but not passive playstyle, so my first instinct isn't "go into the enemy jungle and take their stuff", which is bad because that is sometimes a good idea. I'm so used to playing champs that CAN engage and CAN bully in lane, but I play a style that is closer to "play to get the small leads, but act on the enemy pressure/mistakes and so on, more than rushing in head first. It is a hard mentality to get out of or find the champions that work well in the current meta to even fit my mindset.

AkasuiseiMar 24, 20162 votes

Having you explain your playstyle, Kindred might work perfectly for you since you gain significant buffs and small leads that can snowball by going after the marked targets. With kindred, more than other champs, map awareness is key. some advice here would be to always have a pink ward ready and build the jungle item that allows warding. farm what you can in your jungle, obviously, and go after marked scuttles, then transition to head into the enemy jungle to get the marked camps there while warding and keeping an eye out for the enemy jungler.

I love playing against kindreds, because I know they are going after the marks so its easy to wait for them and get them when they come. You can counter this by warding near the marked enemy camp and then checking the map for the enemy jungler. If you spot them on the other side of the map, or at least have vision of them somewhere and think you can get the camp fast enough, then do it. Or if you are heading to the camp and spot the enemy jungler there waiting for you, just leave a ward and head back to your jungle and farm or go gank a lane. If hes there waiting to ambush you, that means hes not ready to help his lane!

Play a couple of games focusing on the timing of getting the marked enemy camps and watching for the enemy jungler. Once you get used to that, keeping track of that while being more aggressive and going for ganks will be easier.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

Thanks for the help and advice there. Surprised how helpful people are being here overall and it is really appreciated.

DreadlocksMar 24, 20162 votes

Play what you enjoy, if you are having fun, learning will be much easier to do.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

yeah I'm trying my best to have fun with it, but I'm trying to distinguish between "champions I really enjoy" and "champions that are fun but actually work".

As I responded to someone else saying, I enjoy stuff like Yorick jungle, because I can control the jungle (I feel) and he can work wonders in tower dives with his ult basically giving an extra person. Hower he can get counter jungled hard and a slow start is GG almost, plus he has to rely on laners having CC.

I'm trying to figure out what is viable for me, fun for me, and works against what are essentially the most likely played champs in my specific Meta (lots of Master Yi, and the pub stompers).

DreadlocksMar 24, 20162 votes

If you can find a way to make it work then keep doing it. I personally play Rengar Udyr and Gragas for jungle not because they are meta but because they are champions ive enjoyed for a long time (except grag i recently picked him up and am happy to have an AP jungler i like)

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

Yeah, right now I'm just trying to find the things that are working closer to the say, 70% (not winrate wise) than the 40-50% like a Yorick. I think it is coming down to inexperience more than anything, and being unfamiliar with the champions that work well in lane but not always in the jungle, and more so the why and why no. It's getting there, but much slower than it feels like it should be going.

DreadlocksMar 24, 20161 votes

Yeah forsure, i mean, some people consider Rengar "gutted" and a lot say hes weak now.. but I beg to differ :) You just have to find what works best for your playstyle and then perfect it the best you can.

My Waifu VanillaMar 24, 20161 votes

Elise might be a decent suggestion if you like yorick since you also have sustain and things tanking for you. It doesn't rely on hard CC laners AS much, but trades a squishier champion for it and is probably more boned than Yorick if someone looks at you funny in your jungle.

Rumble also fills a tanky damage oriented jungler role well and has one of the fastest clear speeds and can (realistically) not be counterjungled since he almost always stays above 60% health after the first clear and wins a lot of 1v1 if they want to fight you. He also has no hard CC, but his level 6 ganks typically does not need it (which usually come just after 6 or 7 minutes) since equalizer on its own usually blows flashes or gives you the power to kill the lane your ganking with its massive slow.

EndlessSorcererMar 24, 20162 votes

There is a delay between when you mark a target with Kindred and when you can collect the mark on them. If you kill the target before this delay completes, you will not get the stack. This delay is meant to give the target time to react to being marked.

Wolf will only mark neutral objectives (Scuttle Crab) and enemy jungle camps (Wolves, Raptors, Gromp, Krugs). After you have 6 stacks of your passive, it will only mark Rift Herald and Baron.

Kindred has a very, very strong early-game when played well. She is great at dueling and invading the enemy jungler, capable of snowballing lanes and scales rather well into the late-game.

I have some general tips saved that I've written for previous posts. Here you go.

I would suggest watching videos by high-ELO and/or professional junglers (i.e. Nightblue3, Stonewall008, Valkyrin, and foxdropLOL). They will typically provide a lot of useful tips while playing and you can often see or hear their decision process and some optimizations throughout the game.

Off the top of my head, some basic optimizations may be:

Prioritize farming unless a gank is very easy to succeed. You need items and levels to be useful, so you don't want to fall behind and waste time. I'm not going to say you should ignore lanes, but make sure to get camps between ganks and know when you just have to hard-farm to catch up.
Use hard-CC when the monster camps are about to attack you to cancel that attack and delay their next.
Each of the smite buffs are quite useful in different situations. Be sure to take proper advantage of them.
- Raptor's buff is great for ganking
- Gromp buff provides extra damage during clears and fights, especially for champions with a lot of health
- Krug's buff reduces the damage you take while clearing and lets champions without CC kill Scuttle Crab faster
- Wolf buff is useful when you are being counter-jungled or invaded (or after your initial towers have fallen).
If you have a weak early clear, Krugs -> Raptor's -> Red Buff is probably the route that conserves the most health.
Kill the little Raptors and the little Krug first on single-target clearers. They deal a significant amount of damage for their health value, so you will be healthier if they die early.
If you think the enemy jungler will invade you early game, it can be safer to start on a buff camp rather than a little camp since you are less likely to be where they are looking.
Attack Speed is extremely efficient at clearing on most junglers. I'd recommend using about 15% on champions when you need to speed up their clear even if they don't use the stat much later (with a few exceptions, such as Nidalee and Evelynn).
Keep a pink ward out (or in your inventory) whenever possible. This is important for every champion, but I thought I should emphasis it. There isn't really a good reason not to.

As far as ganking is concerned:

When possible, conserve your gap-closer while ganking. If you can get to the enemy champion without using your mobility spell(s), then you can save it to catch them after they try to escape (Flash, dash, blink, etc).
Melee champions should try to stay between the enemy and their escape route. You should be trying to move backwards (towards their escape) in-between attacks so that you can body-block them and slow their escape. This also leaves you closer to them if they try to dash on blink past you.
Use Raptor's smite buff to determine if you have been spotted by wards when ganking to reduce the risk of them escaping or receiving a counter-gank.
It can be risky to gank top-lane while Dragon is up since the enemy team can just group and take it 4v3. I'd recommend ganking top-lane early if possible (after your initial clear) and when Dragon is down; that lane can be quick snowbally due to isolation, so you want to get your ally ahead.
Learn to recognize the general times when buff camps spawn during games. If you see the enemy gank bottom lane while their top-side buff is up, you can go steal it from them.
Watch when top and bottom lane initially go into lane. If that lane has leashed for their jungler (missing health, mana, or showed up to lane a bit late), then you know where the enemy jungler has likely started and where they will end their clear (where is closest for them to gank).
If you have killed the enemy laner, you can either allow your laner to freeze or shove the lane into the enemy tower. If you shove the wave under tower and the next minion wave is coming up, it can be helpful to proxy it to ensure that the wave fully resets and the enemy laner misses as much as possible. This is very situational though and you will have to learn when through experience.

Other tips:

Whenever possible, walk up to the enemy champion during a gank and save your gap-closer for after they use their escape abilities.
Watch the enemy laners when they go into lane. Whichever lane shows up later and/or missing mana will likely indicate which side of the jungle the enemy jungler started on (which is useful for predicting gank paths and for counter-jungling).
When against aggressive early counter-junglers (i.e. Shaco) it can be a good idea to start on your buff camp and/or to start on a different side than you usually do. If he invades your buff, you've already taken it and/or you aren't there to be killed.
Watch the minimap to see when and where the enemy goes to ward, which laners are pushing, which laners are vulnerable
Know, roughly, how most laning matchups go so that you can prioritize which lanes are the easiest to gank or require an early gank to decide the matchup.
If you have blown an enemies Flash during a gank but haven't killed them, swing back around immediately after an gank them again. Many people don't expect it
If you've killed an enemy during a previous gank in top lane, kill them again immediately after they return to lane. They likely won't have wards up yet and a second back-to-back death can be enough to completely crush any chance that opponent has to recover the lane.
Top laners rarely bother warding the lane bushes. As such, lane ganks can be quite surprising and effective.
When you kill an enemy laner, shove the minion wave into the tower so they miss gold and experience and so that the minion wave will reset to the middle of the lane. If you can get away with it, clear the upcoming minion wave as well to ensure the reset and maximum missed minions.

You will learn a lot through experience, but these tips should help you at the start.

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

A lot to chew on here (totally not a bad thing), so thanks for that. Copied it into a notepad just as something I can look at when I'm practicing certain things.

Much appreciated.

BaunjoMar 24, 20161 votes

Are you wanting advice on kindred or jungling -_-

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

Yes

Figured it was easier to start with one area instead of asking 50 questions, and once a dialogue was open, I could go from there. So far so good.

BaunjoMar 24, 20161 votes

actually, no, its substantially harder. You learn jungling and apply it to champions, not learn a champion and apply it to jungling

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

That isn't what I meant or said. You asked if I wanted advice on kindred or jungle, I said yes, as in yes to both.

I want advice on kindred (which I've gotten a lot of good advice on) and I want advice on jungle (which I've also gotten a lot of good advice on).

I said specifically that I was starting with asking for advice on one thing (kindred) while hoping that from there I could start asking more questions, without having to ask a lot.

Think you are looking for a reason to be snappy, as everyone else has been rather straightforward and helpful, and you seemed to be looking for a way to be passive aggressive immediately :P

BaunjoMar 24, 20161 votes

Nope, I getchu now.

I'm sure you have already read many novels in this thread, so I'll try to keep it short:

Jungle has arguably the most influence on how a game can go. Knowing what is strong in your team and the other team is key to being good at jungle.

I try not to gank lanes that are feeding. The amount of risk you put forward ganking a fed lane is generally not worth the reward, especially when you need to gank more than just once before they can turn the lane around ( if they even can )

So try and gank lanes that are winning or atleast doing well in cs. This will benefit you in the long run.

If your lanes are either not in a good position to be ganked or just generally not a great lane to gank for, apply what I said above about knowing what is valuable on your team that the jungle wants to shut down. Because if the other jungle doesn't suck, they will be doing the same thing.

This is where counter ganking comes in. Say you have a mordekaiser top, he both naturally pushes the lane because of how his abilities work and is a super easy champion to gank since he has no gap closers. Sit in the bush by the river with sweeper and wait for their jungle, while you look at the map to see where he is.

Again, this applies to the previous point, always make the effort to know where the other jungler is at all times. This is easiest to do by putting wards in the bush above their red buff, as most jungles will look to gank after red buff. Warding their jungle is generally a good idea but especially there.

Another good place to ward is the small bushes on the sides of mid lane in the river. A good jungler will be keeping track of getting the scuddles, so if you aren't in a position to take it, atleast you know when they are doing it.

DO NOT pick champions who do not have that much pressure. I'm sorry to hate on kindred, but she is a good example of this. Her ganks are poor, so lane pressure will not be that great. Her sustain is also poor, so getting early objectives like rift herald and dragon is hard with her. Therefore, other than her ultimate, she poses NO benefit to her team unless she is fed.

There ARE champions that can carry in damage, gank well, and take objectives super easily. Xin is a great example of this. But keep in mind, you do not need to play a damage carry jungler to carry. I climbed out of bronze with Poppy because I can dual well with her early and ganking as poppy is very efficient.

My last point and I will leave you at this already too long text is that there are 2 roles who simply cannot play a tank without hurting their team, and that is ADC and Mid. Please, do not be the guy who picks another glass cannon champion when your mid adc and support are all squishies. That is how you lose games.

GOOD LUCK

Linna ExcelMar 24, 20161 votes

Watch Stonewall, Foxdrop, and Pants are Dragon on youtube if you haven't. Nightblue streams on twitch and he's a good source of info.

I'm just not great at ganking and counter jungler at the moment

Ganking is best when you catch the other team doing something wrong. You don't always have to get a kill, or even a summoners spell. Just look for an over extended enemy (or someone who's low enough to dive on depending on who you are playing), and make sure your laners are healthy enough to gank for. If you approach and the other guy backs off, it's warded. Find another way to gank if it is.

Counterjungling partly depends on having a champ who is good at it and knowing the other guy's champ.

My Waifu VanillaMar 24, 20161 votes

For Kindred I am no expert, but I almost always start the game marking their jungler the second the game starts (it will be back up if you actually want to gank a lane, but meeting their jungler before then is usually icing on the cake). Start W and clear 1 side of your jungle and then look for the first mark (4/5 chance it's on the opposite side of the jungle you started) and just go take it. You can usually 1v1 any jungler in the game at level 3 since if you kited your camps you should be much healthier than they are and have QWE to work with.

Outside of that just find the weakest lane and farm them for marks (their 0/2 top laner for instance can probably be dove for free stacks and such despite their life not being worth much gold wise). You aren't the GREATEST ganker in the world for bot lane so focus on counterjungling safely (you see their jg bot you clear their top side and vice versa) or ganking top/mid when convenient.

I prefer Warrior over Devourer mainly because you aren't the GREATEST Devourer user in the world and it has been nerfed quite a few times. After Warrior you have a good amount of freedom with what you buy (Maw/Sterak's are both good as well as Death's Dance for survivability) as long as you don't go full glass cannon or full defensive. Crit is typically a bad idea since you don't have as many luxuries a regular ADC has (range, damage steroid, actually being a huge AAer), but RFC makes for good front loaded damage and P Daddy adds a good amount of survivability/mobility (as can be seen with Graves rude top lane build).

XonraMar 24, 20161 votes

Lots to respond to, and I appreciate every post and response, guys. Might not get to everyone but I appreciate it all once again.

Lots of love, guys.

Jungle Lux GodMar 24, 20161 votes

I can't comment on Kindred since I don't play them, but I am a jungle main that can also comment on some of the other stuff you need help with like ganking and counterjungling.

What makes it tricky to help someone out with ganking and counterjungling is that it's fundamentally easy to talk about how to do these things better but it's fundamentally hard to put them into practice because it's easy to understand how to gank or counterjungle but hard to understand when you can do it. Even when you do understand how to do these things it can be really hard to make them work either due to wards giving the enemy team information on your current position (mostly with ganking) or the enemy team has already made your current targets not readily available (eg. monsters aren't there when you counterjungle).

Map awareness is really important for learning how to gank and counterjungle better because it gives you a window as to what is going on around the map. Your biggest opportunities to gank are going to come when the opposing laners are pushed up to your own turrets, but you won't know when they are pushed up to your turrets if you don't look at the minimap. Same thing with counterjungling: your biggest opportunity is when the enemy jungler makes an appearance on the other side of the map, but you won't know when they appear unless you look at your minimap.

I recommend you learn how to jungle really well with one or two champions (even if it's the non-meta kind of stuff you like to play) such that you can do their jungle clears without looking at the jungle camp. Then, while you are clearing camps, spend time looking at the minimap, looking for gankable lanes or for the enemy jungler's face. If you know how to play your champion well enough, your clear should be mostly automatic, and this kind of habit helps improve your map presence by quite a bit by making you look more at the minimap. In addition, you can apply whatever fundamentals you learn with these champions to other junglers you might play because they carry over so much.

Darkslayer85Mar 24, 20161 votes

Marks tale 10 seconds to activate.

MeaningfulOrgyMar 25, 20161 votes

I'm not a jungle main or anything, but you may look into trying out Amumu. He is a really simple jungler that will allow you to focus on other aspects of jungling. He brings a lot to the table making him good for early pressure due to high base damage or to farm/counter jungle due to his pretty quick clear speed. His kit has two forms of cc (Q and ultimate), a gap closer (Q), aoe % max health damage (W), and a MR debuff (Passive). Plus he transition well into the late game even if he doesn't get a lead thanks to his ult. I often just build him full tank but am still able to get kills early due to damage and then become a cc monster late game. His builds allow to go AP or mix of tank and AP and still do really well too. The only thing to really worry about is Amumu's first clear through the jungle if he gets invaded and loses blue it puts him why behind due to his mana issues. Otherwise, He is a really solid pick to learn the ins and outs of the jungle with.

TheSlogsMar 25, 20161 votes

Kindred's mark takes about 8 seconds to apply. This is so that you can't just be killing someone then mark them, getting a stack instantly without a chance of counterplay.

Sir YamazukiMar 25, 20161 votes

{quoted} I'm sure most of it is me not doing something right, but was hoping someone could point me in a good direction, or even suggest when it is a good (or not so good) time to play Kindred. For example, I know I probably don't want to pick it into Lee or Grag, but are there good comps/matchups that just make a lot of sense?

Regarding Kindred in particular, she does fine against Lee and Grag. She has a strong early, and since she's ranged and actually can beat Lee early on, she also clears quick while staying healthier than Lee as well. Kindred is actually more relevant than Lee at all stages of the game. Grag is also stronger earlier but she's stronger than he is as well. She only does poorly against those that do really well later, like Yi, Xin, Sej, etc. Although, that's assuming you didn't take advantage of the fact you're stronger than they are earlier on, it's possible to win against them if the game ends soon enough.

You have to play to her strengths, and it also depends on whether you're going warrior or devour.

Duke AnaxMar 25, 20161 votes

Mastery over Meta.

If you master a role and master a champion you can put both togther and succeed no matter what.

I'm pretty gconfident with Jungle Soraka (I kid you not), because Soraka is my main and I got her mechanics down to a T and I know how to jungle in general.

If you wanna learn the champ pick a role you are comfortable with. If you wana learn the role, pick a champ you are comfortable with. Don't try both at the same time.

XonraMar 25, 20161 votes

Well, my highest Mastery level champion (I know that wasn't the mastery you meant) is Nautilus, so maybe I should be trying to take him into the jungle.

He just seems to be knocked down a few peg since I last tried well over a year ago in the damage department, but maybe it will still work. I'll have to try it with clears first and go from there.

Duke AnaxMar 25, 20161 votes

Actually that is exactly the mastery I mean't. Mastery comes from familiarity and playing games with them.

The system Riot may not be too accurate in saying how good you are compared to other players, but it does a pretty good job at indicating how familiar you are with your own champs.

And even if he is a few pegs lower, doesn't matter, what matters most is that you feel comfortable playing with that champ. If you are comfortable with severel champs then you can decide wich one is better in a given situation.

Way too many players are making the mistake of doing this the other way round.

XonraMar 25, 20161 votes

Oh, well fair enough then. In that case, I'm not sure I have anything past Nautilus that can really effectively jungle (past clearing the jungle).

My only mastery 5 champs are, in order: Nautilus, Morgana, Heimerdinger, and Renekton. Not the epitome of a great roster of junglers as half of those barely clear well without a lot of juking and jiving.