The power gap between pro and nonpro on champs like Tali/Galio/Ryze/Sej/etc. needs addressing =/

Bern··5 votes·4,558 views

ASol would probably be up here too, if he were a more common pick. Anyways:

tl;dr: Please rebudget the power on these kinds of champs (and maybe look at some systemic changes) so that, at balance, they can still be fun to play in the average player's game. (And hell, maybe still fun for the average LCS pro -- I can't imagine laning as Galio feels very good for -anyone- right now.)

We're reaching a point where we're needing to gutter these champions for most of the playerbase to keep them from being must-pick in pro because of how their power is budgeted. Galio feels like shit and he still kinda deserves those nerfs. Ryze is still nuts after tons of nerfs... so he's getting more. Sejuani is sitting at a painfully low winrate for how straightforward she is to play because of how good her guaranteed CC and noncommital pick engage happen to be. Taliyah is being played almost every game by some pro teams because she's so good at snowballing the map and getting lane priority for her jungler to invade, so those nerfs on PBE, while sad, are pretty fair.

Right now, it's getting to a point where if people who aren't pro players want to be able to feel good about picking Galio and Sej, they're out of luck. Ryze is a different case in high elo, and... well, that's probably why he's getting nerfed more... and I'm kind of afraid Taliyah's going to end up eating the cycle of nerfs these guys did, as will any other champion with a similar power budget (i.e., lots of power in things organized teams abuse and like, such as Sej ult, Taliyah wall, Ryze ult, Galio ult, or strong waveclear). I don't really have a problem with some champions being better in pro play; on the contrary, I think that's good. However, leaving some classes of champs in this painful state of "still really busted if your team is smart but garbage otherwise" is going to make a lot of people frustrated when champions they had fun playing before are no longer as enjoyable.

...And hell, I'd wager Galio feels like shit early in the game even if you're an LCS pro and know you'll get solid value out of the pick. He probably feels bad to play no matter who you are, and I'm afraid all these champions are going to end up the same.

So I'd really like to see something done. Maybe take a patch or something, and devote it to ironing out the power budgets of champions like Taliyah, Ryze, Galio. See how they can be adjusted to circumvent the problem, and see how maybe the state of the game is making those picks especially valuable over other power picks and adjust some systemic things too. (Making shutdown gold solo again is probably a step in the right direction, here; likewise, even if I hate them, waveclear changes probably help too). The plight of Sej, Galio, Ryze, and the rest is probably going to become a overarching design issue sooner rather than later -- if you can't count it as one already -- and I'd really like to see it addressed in a way that lets the people that enjoy playing those champions in their own games continue to do so.

Thanks!

10 Comments

Lord of Math4 votes

Ugh, another person asking for the infinitieth rework of Ryze

Bern3 votes

It's not really just Ryze, though; it's pretty much every champion with heavy global influence that isn't TF. The global influence of those champs is currently so strong that, at balance, the rest of their kits feel like shit and that kinda sucks. It'd be good to see them have a more sustainable design.

Lord of Math2 votes

{quoted}

It's not really just Ryze, though; it's pretty much every champion with heavy global influence that isn't TF. The global influence of those champs is currently so strong that, at balance, the rest of their kits feel like shit and that kinda sucks. It'd be good to see them have a more sustainable design.

I was being sarcastic, but I do not feel like ryze feels like shit other than his ult, they already have been shifting power from his ultimate. It does not look like they put it anywhere else, but that may be temporary. Perhaps when they do go to rework him, they will double down on his cooldown resets and make his ultimate refund mana and cooldowns for a few seconds. On cast Ryze refunds his mana expenditures one second after each cast. Or his Ultimate could give health/mana to everyone who successfully teleports. The amount would be a percent maximum that would scale off his AP, but would be evenly divided among all occupants of the Realm Warp. Thus the cooldown could be made even longer and give solo power to his ultimate to compensate for it being a team ability. That is one of the major reasons for him being so shit in lower than plat elos.

Bern1 votes

Ryze doesn't feel like shit outside of his ult, yeah. (His root is probably the other really big defining power point, since it's so strong -- should probably include that with his ult as one of his signature points of power.) Anyways, the fact he doesn't feel like shit kinda says he's still not balanced, if we trust the precedent of champions like Galio -- and that's probably why he's still getting the nerfbat patch after patch.

Once he's at balance, it's likely he'll feel just as bad as Galio does.

Ultîma1 votes

That's their niche though. Global influence is a massive amount of power that they bring to the table. It's also why Shen has been historically middle-of-the-pack with regards to overall power, yet no one complains about him. Why? Because everyone knows that a dedicated Shen main is a terrifying thing to see on the enemy team, and someone who has good map awareness can completely warp the dynamic of ganks and engages through good ultimates. The same thing is true for Galio, Taliyah and Ryze (although I'd also argue that Ryze's mechanical complexity puts him more in the Azir Kalista category). Succeeding on those champions should be difficult when one of your abilities can make turn the tide of a battle or objective so effectively.

Wild Geese2 votes

More champs should be designed like: Azir , Taliyah , Ryze , Galio and so on...

A lot of the champions in this game are a ball of stats that while they have abilities, cannot set themselves apart strategically, only their overall power matters.

Whereas strategic Champions can be nerfed and buffed, they just work...

jocomotion1 votes

Galio : 80% of the problem is his ulti. In lower rank solo Que no one's going to watch the minimap/capitalize on His ult when he's close, making it one of the most under-utilized ultimates in lower ranks. But at high ranks it's one of the best, Damage reduction, long range TP, Magic damage, and a knock-up in a huge AOE plus you immediately turn the fight in your favor. Riot should focus less on nerfing his entire kit and nerf his ultimates in ways that aren't simply "less damage/longer cooldown". Maybe buff his basic abilities, but nerf his ultimate by reducing its range, getting rid of the damage reduction, and making it free-cast instead of on ally cast? Probably not that, since giving damage reduction to allies is new in LOL, but my point stands.

Ryze : at first his ultimate was the main problem in his kit, but riot's done an decent job at fixing that, not great, not bad, but decent. Now his problem is his combo's being too effective in certain situations. Honestly this one's not simple IDK wtf riot will do to fix him. But recent changes have him going in a slightly better direction with a bigger focus on single target burst over AOE damage, but I'm no Ryze main.

Azir : Does everything a mid laner wants to do too well. Good waveclear, good zoning, powerful roams, decent burst damage, high consistent damage, good mobility, Good utility, Siege potential, etc.... So to balance that riot keeps nerfing his base numbers. I recommend riot take one thing he's good at and make him bad at it, and take another thing he's good at and make him better at it. I recommend upping his waveclear and zoning but decreasing his mobility, but again, I'm no Azir main.

Sejuani : Much like Azir, Sej has literally been made to be the perfect jungler. Consistant AOE Damage, reliable Hard CC, increadible engage, Extremely tanky, Decent dueling potential, amazing kiting potential. Again I'd reccommend buffing one strength thing in exchange for removing another. I'd rework her passive again, the free Armor/MR is too exploitable in the early game for safety on a tank jungler, but again, I don't play Sej much either.

Taliyah : Decrease the size of her "worked grounds", decrease the mana cost of her Q, Increase the cooldown of W and E. I'm still learning her, but from what I've seen lower levels struggle fighting near their worked ground where higher levels kite the hell out of people with other abilities.

AurelionSol : I. HAVE. NO. IDEA. Idk, I agree that he's been balanced around pro play more than lower ranked play, but honestly he's not too bad as long as you're not counter-picked. Soooo maybe nerf him, but give him good ways to deal with high mobility targets?

The Oasis1 votes

Is Galio really in such bad place right now? His full combo burst is pretty insane for the amount of AP you need (or don't need) to build, and he gets tanky as hell without building like one. And even in low Silver where I placed this season it was pretty easy to find impactful Ults. Maybe when I get close to plat again I'll see his downsides, but right now I just steamroll everyone.

Bern1 votes

Mana gating is rough, and q cd is very high atm, basically

BroLane1 votes

Yall forgetting about Gnar? This guy is sitting at a win rate under 47% because his kit is a travesty to play when it's weak, as well as one to play against when it's strong.

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