54% Platinum+ global win rates don't happen without cause

Dope Solo·Aug 22, 2018·6 votes·3,180 views

Buff buff buff!

49 Comments

ThimesAug 22, 20182 votes

Anivia sits at similar and higher win rates for years, why don't you complain about her?

Dope SoloAug 22, 20182 votes

That's a 4 vs a 13% pick rate bud.

º Lamb calls ºAug 22, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dope Solo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6sWW52ap,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-08-22T17:58:22.340+0000)

That's a 4 vs a 13% pick rate bud.

Haven't checked, but pick rate doesn't actually matter, what does is the average amount of games played/skill level with the champion. You could have champ A with a 20% pick rate and champion B with a 1% pick rate, but champion A could still have a higher average skill level than champion B. The idea that a lower pick rate champion is mostly played by their mains is simply not true, some unpopular champions are mostly played by people who don't actually play them. It simply varies from champion to champion and patch to patch.

Dope SoloAug 22, 20181 votes

Pick rates do matter. Do you think people pick weak champs on purpose with the same frequency as a winning champ?

º Lamb calls ºAug 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dope Solo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6sWW52ap,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-22T22:32:32.732+0000)

Pick rates do matter. Do you think people pick weak champs on purpose with the same frequency as a winning champ?

Within the context of win rate, pick rate does not matter, the skill level of the player base playing that champion does. Refer to my initial second sentence.

Dope SoloAug 23, 20181 votes

Skill level is platinum+, as already pointed several times above.

BogWhopNAAug 23, 20181 votes

Adding on to this point, pick rate does ABSOLUTELY matter, if a champion has a a huge pick rate like 30% plus, which Ezreal had not to long ago with above a 50% WR, that is exceptionally high for how many people are playing that champion so Ahri with a 54% WR with a 13% pick rate is an unusually high WR for the pick rate she has.

wildfox99Aug 23, 20181 votes

he means the experience that players have with this champion,not the elo

quoting the comment i did below

it depends,some champions have a really larger playerbase comparted with others (and ahri is one of them)

sure other things like learning curve and so on also matter but putting it simple :

if the players that main X champion are 10 times more than the players that main Y champion it's not absurd saying it's fine for X champion having the same WR of Y champion but with 10 times his pickrate

pick rate and neither win rate shows how experienced the playerbase is,i mean would you complain if a X champion OTP wouldhave 60% win rate with him?

i don't think so if you are not delusional

so if X champion have a lot of mains it make sense for him having a both high pick rate and win rate

returning on the original topic,i think part of the "problem"is that,ahri had a ~8% pick rate even after her W/R nerfs and before her "mini rework" when you could as well get reported for trolling for picking her even if you main/OTP her (she was literally a free win at the time),considering that some of her mains almost surely quitted only for returning after her buffs i don't think her having both an high win rate/pick rate is a problem for the same reason i don't think this ~8% were meta abusers but OTP/experienced mains

in any case i don't see the "problem" on the first place,nobody is complaining about her if not for her win rate (not because she feels so strong,not because she's unhealty or oppressive,just for a number),i'm pretty sure if sites like lolalytics wouldn't exist nobody could find any logical reason to complain about her,but let's complain about everything we can find for the sake of complaining about this champ

if anything i think that atm she lacks some skill espression that she used to have in the past seasons,so now everyone can pick her and doing good despite the fact that she's not too strong (just too easy and binary to learn)

wildfox99Aug 23, 20181 votes

Do you think people pick weak champs on purpose with the same frequency as a winning champ?

by this logic bann rate should also matter (why not bann a champion if he's strong?),but ofc nobody mentions that ahri's bann rate is almost inexistent [sg-lulu]

ParoeAug 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

by this logic bann rate should also matter (why not bann a champion if he's strong?),but ofc nobody mentions that ahri's bann rate is almost inexistent [sg-lulu]

Youre equating win:pick to ban rate? Just because something is strong under the radar doesnt mean it gets banned. Otherwise flavor of the month wouldnt exist.

Ahri is both popular - as evidenced by a high pick rate - and very strong as evidenced by a high winrate in spite of a high pick rate. The fact shes a stable pick and generally always does well without being meta is a testament to how incredibly safe she is...

wildfox99Aug 23, 20181 votes

Just because something is strong under the radar doesnt mean it gets banned. Otherwise flavor of the month wouldnt exist.

same answer here,just because something is not strong it doesn't mean it can't have a good pick rate?

ahri always had an high pick rate (~8%) even when she was nearly a trollpick after her R/W nerfs and before her mini rework,most of the players that cause her high win/pick rate are mains/OTP

as i already said she's not too strong,maybe too easy and binary,when a champion lacks skill espression everyone can pick it and playing it as its best (that's could also explain the high win/pick rate,or who knows maybe it could be caused by both factors)

ParoeAug 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

same answer here,just because something is not strong it doesn't mean it can't have a good pick rate?

ahri always had an high pick rate (~8%) even when she was nearly a trollpick after her R/W nerfs and before her mini rework,most of the players that cause her high win/pick rate are mains/OTP

as i already said she's not too strong,maybe too easy and binary,when a champion lacks skill espression everyone can pick it and playing it as its best (that's could also explain the high win/pick rate,or who knows maybe it could be caused by both factors)

Uhm... A high win rate combined with a high pick rate indicates, explicitly, that a champion is strong. Youre trying to obfuscate that fact by equating win:pick to ban, which doesnt make sense as banrate is a whole other set of statistics which can be used to strengthen the win:pick correlation of FotM or popular champions For example... Zed and Yasuo have always had high ban rates, even when theyre not meta. But their win:pick does not support that theyre to strong, even if the banrate is high.

wildfox99Aug 23, 20181 votes

Uhm... A high win rate combined with a high pick rate indicates, explicitly, that a champion is strong.

i just show you 2 different cases where this is not true

Youre trying to obfuscate that fact by equating win:pick to ban

ofc bann rate alone doesn't say if a champion is balanced or not,but neither pick/win rate alone,you have also to consider the learning curve of the champion that you are talking about and how experienced is its playerbase

anyway i'm not denying that,i'm saying that also an high pick rate doesn't mean a champion is broken,maybe quoting again the comment i replied will make it more clear

Pick rates do matter. Do you think people pick weak champs on purpose with the same frequency as a winning champ?

couldn't people play a champion just because they love playing it?

with the same logic i could say "why people wouldn't bann a broken pick?"

people bann broken champions,if a champion have a low bann rate it means most of the players don't have any problem to play against it,if it have an high bann rate it means it's broken

ofc it could be just because the champion is hated,but wanted to show him that even using his logic he would be wrong anyway

ParoeAug 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

i just show you 2 different cases where this is not true

You have proof that having a high WIN-RATE and a high PICK-RATE doesnt mean a champion is strong? Go for it, give me that proof. Because your entire argument thus far relies on the assumption that strength correlates directly to ban rate, which simply isnt true. Its a factor sure... But with only 5 bans you need to ban either what you dont like or whats currently Flavor of the Month. Otherwise we would see a LOT more vlad, aurelion sol, ashe, and ezreal bans than we do.

You cant equate win:pick to ban rate, and doing so is only an attempt to deflect the assertion that a champion is strong. I mean... I havent checked, but judging by your name youre proving the thread right.

wildfox99Aug 23, 20181 votes

what?

{quoted}

just because something is not strong it doesn't mean it can't have a good pick rate?

ahri always had an high pick rate (~8%) even when she was nearly a trollpick after her R/W nerfs and before her mini rework,most of the players that cause her high win/pick rate are mains/OTP

as i already said she's not too strong,maybe too easy and binary,when a champion lacks skill espression everyone can pick it and playing it as its best (that's could also explain the high win/pick rate,or who knows maybe it could be caused by both factors)

she have a lot of mains/otp so it's not absurd having a high pick rate and win rate,many ahri players are dedicated players on top of that her mechanics are quite easy so even if you are not so experienced with her you can pick her and be at least decent

also i never said she's too weak,only that she's not too strong ad i explained some of the reasons why she could have an high win/pick rate despite the fact that she's not nerf worthy

there is no direct correlation on win rate and bann rate because there is no correlation (not if taken alone) with win rate and the actual champion power

if a champion ends up broken after a patch his bann rate is more likely going to raise,sure that's not enough for saying a champion is balanced or not but also it isn't the win rate (again 2 different things,i'm not equating them but when they raise it's because of the same cause,the champion being strong)\

edit : e.g X champion usually have about 10% bann rate,he got a buff and the next patch his bann rate is about 70%,it could be a signal that this champion became too strong,exactly like a too high win rate does,it put X champion in the radar but alone it doesn't say enough

UnboundHadesAug 22, 20182 votes

pick rate matters because even if a champ with a 60% win rate has a 0.5% playrate it just means that the people who have actually decided to main the champ are the cause instead of the champ being overpowered whenever anyone decides to play a few games with them which is why a higher pickrate and a high winrate is bad while a high winrate and low pickrate doesnt really matter the worst case scenario is when a champ has a low winrate and pickrate and that just shows that the champ is incredibly weak

º Lamb calls ºAug 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

pick rate matters because even if a champ with a 60% win rate has a 0.5% playrate it just means that the people who have actually decided to main the champ are the cause instead of the champ being overpowered whenever anyone decides to play a few games with them which is why a higher pickrate and a high winrate is bad while a high winrate and low pickrate doesnt really matter the worst case scenario is when a champ has a low winrate and pickrate and that just shows that the champ is incredibly weak

We are talking about win rate, not why a champion is popular, as I said to the op, refer to the initial second sentence.

Context matters.

wildfox99Aug 23, 20181 votes

it depends,some champions have a really larger playerbase comparted with others (and ahri is one of them)

sure other things like learning curve and so on also matter but putting it simple :

if the players that main X champion are 10 times more than the players that main Y champion it's not absurd saying it's fine for X champion having the same WR of Y champion but with 10 times his pickrate

SugeMinPikkAug 22, 20182 votes

Pick rate does matter. ASol hasn't gotten a single nerf despite holding a winrate of 53% (often more) for like a year because his pick rate is so low that the only people playing him are 1tricks.

º Lamb calls ºAug 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Pick rate does matter. ASol hasn't gotten a single nerf despite holding a winrate of 53% (often more) for like a year because his pick rate is so low that the only people playing him are 1tricks.

"One tricks" make up less than 1% of his pick rate. Low pick rate=/=only picked by experienced players. That's simply a lie people make up to justify keeping unpopular champions unnecessarily strong.

Pick rate has a significantly lower impact on a champion's win rate than other factors such as rune/item combinations, and average skill level of the players picking them. When Cait was nerfed multiple times a while back her win rate still went up even though her pick rate didn't drop down a lot. Why? People swapped from Runnan's (the popular build) to the less common, but significantly better build involving Shiv.

ParoeAug 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=º Lamb calls º,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6sWW52ap,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-22T21:43:21.215+0000)

Haven't checked, but pick rate doesn't actually matter, what does is the average amount of games played/skill level with the champion. You could have champ A with a 20% pick rate and champion B with a 1% pick rate, but champion A could still have a higher average skill level than champion B. The idea that a lower pick rate champion is mostly played by their mains is simply not true, some unpopular champions are mostly played by people who don't actually play them. It simply varies from champion to champion and patch to patch.

Pick rate matters when used in ocnjunction with win rate. Seasons ago lee-sin had a 48% winrate with a 20% pick rate globally across all ELOs. 48% win rate isnt impressive on its own, but combined with a 20% pick rate it meant that lee-sin was incredibly powerful and in need of severe nerfs.

Anything above 10% pick rate can be considered "popular" iirc, anything below 5% can be considered "okay", and anything below 3% can be considered "dedicated fanbase".

wildfox99Aug 22, 20182 votes

first off nobody is asking for buffs,it's just something that people like you say because they want to complain about her

second,the only site that says 54% is lolalytics (uh but it helps me to circlejerk so it's the right one,others are s_h_*t),all the others say she's at about 52.5% WR,even worse when we talk about pick rate they give numbers between 5% and 15%

those sites (i mean all of them) are inaccurate and their data and shouldn't be taken that literally,so the real question is : when you play against/as ahri do you feel like she's too strong? that she's pick or bann?

Automated RivenAug 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

first off nobody is asking for buffs,it's just something that people like you say because they want to complain about her

Cough ahris cough

those sites (i mean all of them) are inaccurate and their data and shouldn't be taken that literally,so the real question is : when you play against/as ahri do you feel like she's too strong? that she's pick or bann?

No. Why would I ban ahri at a 54% winrate when I can ban aurelian sol at a 56% winrate.

wildfox99Aug 23, 20181 votes

Cough ahris cough

so i guess ahris represent the whole community?

just look at the comment below his posts and you can finding many ahri mains going against him (or at least being reasonable)

on those boards we ALL know how ahris is there is no need to explain,except him who said that?

Automated RivenAug 23, 20181 votes

first off nobody is asking for buffs,it's just something that people like you say because they want to complain about her

Colton147Aug 22, 20181 votes

Ahri is one of the weakest mid laners in the game and is badly in need of buffs to be made viable again.

Ahri is as bad as Corki Lux Ziggs and release day/post-gutted Ornn .

WalkingInACircleAug 22, 20181 votes

Global? Its 52 in Korea.

Dope SoloAug 22, 20181 votes

54 average, including Kor.

WalkingInACircleAug 22, 20181 votes

Nope.

BogWhopNAAug 22, 20182 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Ahri/Middle/ (55% [55.08%] Global WR in Diamond)

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Ahri/Middle/ (54% [ 54.30%] Global WR in Plat)

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/kr/diamond/plus/champion/Ahri/Middle/ (55% [54.64%] Korean WR in Diamond)

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/kr/platinum/plus/champion/Ahri/Middle/ (54% [53.70%] Korean WR in Plat)

According to lolalytics the average is 54% and getting even higher than that in diamond in all regions (some may vary, smaller regions like Japan have 48% while Turkey have almost 60%), also for his point for global he means all the regions together, one region can have 60% and another region can have 50%,,, (60+50)/2 is 55, so on average that would be 55% for a small number sample.

Hope this clears any confusion, cheers.

Edit: Clarity

WalkingInACircleAug 22, 20182 votes

Only lolalytics claims that.

Seeing Ahri's winrate go up as elo rises further convinces me they're doing her stats wrong, it has always dropped as elo rises.

BogWhopNAAug 22, 20181 votes

Not just lolalytics proclaims a 54% WR though, other sources such as Champion.gg (This one is kinda troll but, meh), LeagueOfGraphs, lolclass and LolKing also state 54% WR for Ahri.

You can't look at OP.gg and assume their data is 100% correct, actually no site is completely accurate, you need to get data from like 5 sites to get an "accurate" estimate of a champions WR in a role.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ahri/platinum

Also, again the OP is saying her GLOBAL WR is 54%, you put down the Plat+ WR for Korea, but the global WR is the average of all the regions combined which is what the OP is talking about

WalkingInACircleAug 23, 20182 votes

Read your link. Or mine.

BogWhopNAAug 23, 20182 votes

What do you mean? Our links are different lol, yours is only for Korea mine is Global.

WalkingInACircleAug 23, 20181 votes

For league of graph's overall plat+ winrate.

BogWhopNAAug 23, 20182 votes

According to LeagueOfGraphs the Plat+ Global WR is 53%, granted it is not 54%, but according to plenty of other sites it's 54%, no site is completely accurate, the winrates for Ahri varies between 53% - 55% which is still quite high for the pick rate she has.

WalkingInACircleAug 23, 20181 votes

Lolking has 53.

Lolclass is giving me an error.

BogWhopNAAug 23, 20181 votes

I'm getting an error from Lolclass aswell for some reason, but when I posted the link it said 54.71%, since the link is down lolskill.net is working fine and she is listed at 54.2% on it.

Also do realize that Ahri did have a minor scale rework to her kit a while ago, she now has more damage when she hits her charm, her W now cannot be blocked by minions as it prioritizes targets hit by your charm and auto attacks.

For this patch in particular runes have been changed such as Electrocute (which imo seems like a buff despite damage nerfs as it now functions more like TLD where is can be better used as a trading tool rather than all in tool but this is just my opinion).

Also a few OP's you may of run to in the mid lane such as Quinn, Zoe, Wukong, and Fizz have been hit with the nerf bat this patch and previous patches which would also indirectly increase Ahri's power.

ParoeAug 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm getting an error from Lolclass aswell for some reason, but when I posted the link it said 54.71%, since the link is down lolskill.net is working fine and she is listed at 54.2% on it.

Ya know its times like this i wish, really, really, really wish riot hosted their own statistics. Theres no reason for them not to, honestly. I mean... you just need to seperate it by macro rank, by champion, and limit it to your region. Things like role and position can be handled by other stat sites.

BogWhopNAAug 23, 20181 votes

Completely agree, I find no reason why information like this should be hidden, I believe things like champion winrates should be recorded by riot and displayed IN THE CLIENT, and not adding in stupid stuff like chroma and ward tabs.

Automated RivenAug 23, 20181 votes

Here is a logical falacy if I have ever seen one......

BogWhopNAAug 23, 20181 votes

I do not know which person you proclaim has a logical fallacy, but all data presented by both parties is correct, it is just a matter that he is giving information for one region, while the discussion at hand is talking about all regions combined.

Automated RivenAug 23, 20181 votes

The logical fallacy is the assume that because something has 'always been 1 way' that any evidence to the contrary must be thrown out. Especially considering she recently got a kit change. ...

For example. The earth can't possibly be round. It has always been flat ...

WalkingInACircleAug 23, 20181 votes

Its called pattern recognition, no, its not a logical fallacy.

Automated RivenAug 23, 20181 votes

No. Your incorrect. Throwing out evidence (current winrate statistics across multiple sites) because it 'didnt use to be that way'. Is a logical falacy. It contains aspects of 'attacking the evidence' 'apeal to tradition' and 'the argument of incredulity'

Basically suggesting that the evidence is invalid because it doesn't fit a historical narrative and as such cannot be believed.

Pattern recognition has nothing to do with it.

Also the wording reeked of confirmation bias.

Seeing Ahri's winrate go up as elo rises further convinces me they're doing her stats wrong, it has always dropped as elo rises

Just reading it makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

WalkingInACircleAug 23, 20181 votes

Sweetie, logical fallacies occur when someone tries to reach a conclusion based on faulty premises. I didn't state a definitive conclusion, only a suspicion.

Second, attacking evidence isn't a logical fallacy, only trying to state the the conclusion must be faulty if one or more premises is faulty.

Deductive logic is if: then.

BogWhopNAAug 23, 20181 votes

Ah, my apologies, I had my definitions mixed up, you are correct.

Dope SoloAug 23, 20181 votes

Your OP.gg link is korea only. so...YEP! Reading comprehension. Good job, thanks!

KlydeFrogAug 23, 20181 votes

Let me explain. That .4 secs they added at level 1 didnt change anything about her. What you could do now you could do before. People believe what they choose to believe.