Why are AD ratios better than AP ratios?

Vekkna·Feb 12, 2016·5 votes·935 views

EDIT: Specifically referring to some items and masteries.

Let's get some basic math out of the way:

40 AD for 1300g = 32.5g per AD 60 AP for 1250g = 20.8g per AP

So raw bonus AD costs 156% of the price of raw AP. But consider these:

The on-hit effect is 15% bonus AD and 7.5% AP. The AD scaling is 200% of the AP scaling.

Deathfire Touch: Deals 60% bonus AD and 25% AP as a dot over 4 seconds. The AD scaling is 240% of the AP scaling.

Thunderlord's Decree: Deals 30% bonus AD and 10% AP as area damage. The AD scaling is 300% of the AP scaling.

Can anyone explain why this is? I ran the math on a ton of AD/AP item comparisons and couldn't find a single one where AD costs 200-300% of AP costs. Just curious.

25 Comments

PennsFeb 12, 20164 votes

Because AP is way easier to get a lot of. Especially since Deathfire and Thunderlords scale with bonus AD, so thats about 60-90 less than your actual AD.

VekknaFeb 12, 20161 votes

I did the math in the OP. Bonus AD costs 156% of AP cost. It doesn't cost 200-300% of AP cost, but it scales at 200-300% of AP scaling.

So you're correct that AP is cheaper to buy, but the ratios I asked about are way out of proportion to the cost difference.

QuephaFeb 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I did the math in the OP. Bonus AD costs 156% of AP cost. It doesn't cost 200-300% of AP cost, but it scales at 200-300% of AP scaling.

So you're correct that AP is cheaper to buy, but the ratios I asked about are way out of proportion to the cost difference.

You are looking at only a few ratios and items in a vacuum.

For starters, Rabadon's exists which multiplies your AP

Many AD items have crit and attack speed which provide zero benefit to abilities, meaning that's all wasted stats if you're trying to make your abilities deal more damage

AP focused champions tend to have more of their damage locked into their abilities, meaning they have a larger up-front burst when they use all their abilities in a combo, and burst makes more burst even more valuable. Dealing 100% of a target's health in a burst is about 1900% more useful than dealing 75% of their health even though that's only a 33% increase in damage, so getting more burst needs to be more costly to keep champions from easily attaining 100-0 combos.

VekknaFeb 12, 20161 votes

I did a bunch more math comparing common full builds on various AD/AP champs. What you're saying about Rabadon's appears to be the closest thing to a right answer.

Ultimately the right answer in the case of TLD is that it outright favors AD without mathematical explanation. Guinsoo's and DFT math out only in the most extreme examples of AP stacking (Anivia) in the super-late game but only when compared to early-focused builds (Talon).

I think the conclusion is that TLD always favors AD. DFT favors AD against the majority of AP builds, and it still favors AD for the majority of a game's duration against the highest AP builds. Guinsoo's favors AD in 100% of builds that use it

Many AD items have crit and attack speed which provide zero benefit to abilities, meaning that's all wasted stats if you're trying to make your abilities deal more damage

They also have more hp and life-return in general. Mages have more CDR and mana/regen, but it's clearly less taxing on the item budget.

AP focused champions tend to have more of their damage locked into their abilities, meaning they have a larger up-front burst when they use all their abilities in a combo

You would be surprised. Here are some total combo ratios at max level:

Kat: 3.75 (QEWR, full channel ulti), 5.55g per damage LB: 3.6 (WQRE), 5.79g per damage Syndra: 2.99 (QEWR with 6-ball ulti), 7g per damage Malz: 2.9 (full dot durations), 7.18g per damage Anivia: 3.0 (both hits on Q, crit on E, 4 seconds in ulti), 7g per damage Lux: 2.65 (QaaEERaa, includes 3 passive procs), 7.86g per damage

Zed: 5.13 (RWQE), 6.33g per damage (7.43 during ulti) Lee Sin: 4.8 (QQER), 6.77g per damage Riven: 4.28 (RQQQEWR, no AAs, but passive would put it at 7.78 bonus AD ratio)(full execute on ulti puts it at 5.52 for abilities only), 7.59g per damage (4.18g with bonus AD scaling from passive) Talon: 4.62 (full bleed, both hits on W and R) 7g per damage

And bear in mind, this is bonus AD ratios only, and abilities that scale off total AD are calculate here only as bonus AD since we're comparing scaling from items.

That math disproves the myth that AP casters benefit disproportionately from ability scaling to make up for the lack of damage on AAs. Aside from Leblanc, it's almost completely untrue. Moreover, the reverse is often true with AD casters having better ability scaling by every metric relative to AP casters.

The same applies to base damages as well, so that argument can't be made in favor of AP casters. The answer really is that AP casters' abilities scale around similar rates to AD casters but only pull ahead on scaling per gold with a late-game Deathcap. In other words, the tax for long range is having no AA damage and inefficient to average ability scaling until late game.

QuephaFeb 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You would be surprised. Here are some total combo ratios at max level:

You didn't listen to me. I said BURST makes MORE BURST more valuable. Bases have to be factored in too.

If Leblanc's base damage without items dealt all of a target's health minus 10 hit points, she would pay 1,000 gold per point of damage to get that last 10 hp in a burst and be happy about her gold spent because a kill is so much more valuable than getting a target low and still letting them fight back.

VekknaFeb 12, 20161 votes

The same applies to base damages as well, so that argument can't be made in favor of AP casters

You didn't listen to me. I said BURST makes MORE BURST more valuable. Bases have to be factored in too.

I'll just do the math on Lux, Zed, and Talon for max-level base damages:

Lux 260 + 154 + 240 + 500 + 154 = 1068

Talon (200 + 260 + 440)1.15 = 1035

LeeSin 340 + 200 + 600 = 1140

Zed (235 + 117.5 + 180 + 180)1.45 = 1033 (1498 during ulti)

QuephaFeb 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'll just do the math on Lux, Zed, and Talon for max-level base damages:

260 + 154 + 240 + 500 + 154 = 1068

(200 + 260 + 440)1.15 = 1035 (1500 during ulti)

340 + 200 + 600 = 1140

(235 + 117.5 + 180 + 180)1.45 = 1033

Yeah, Lux's range and cc vs. Zed's, those champions are each exactly as safe when performing a full combo and deserve to deal equal damage.

VekknaFeb 12, 20161 votes

(Oops, I put Zed's face in there twice instead of Talon. Corrected.)

Ok, so now you're backtracking. First you said AP champs do more ability damage, and I showed the ratios show otherwise. Then you said AP champs have inherently higher base damages, and I used Lux (with multiple passive procs) to show otherwise.

So I take it you are conceding my point and chalking it up to tax on range, shields, and cc. Well, Lee Sin has a shield, a slow, and an unavoidable displacement along with very high mobility and durability. Riven also has multiple CCs, tons of dashes, and a large shield. The only thing we're really left with is range, which is a significant thing. Zed's Q range fucks that hypothesis a bit, but maybe he's an outlier like LeBlanc or just overtuned.

If range is all we're left with, then basically ranged AP champs are paying for their range at the cost of lower gold efficiency overall, slower movement, lower mastery scaling, and no AA damage.

I'm not taking a position on whether that's fair or balanced, I'm genuinely trying to understand the reasoning. It would certainly explain the feeling of helplessness you get once an AD melee gets to you, since it's not a fair fight once the gap is closed.

This isn't an AD vs AP topic where I'm QQing about how OP AD champs are. But I do know that the reasons most people toss out there - scaling, higher ability damage, higher ability base damage, AD being "harder to get" - are easily disproven with things like addition.

It's not a question of whether the masteries are better for AD champs because it's an objective fact that they are better if you're building AD. I can't make sense of it with the math, so I'm either not looking in the right place or there's a qualitative difference I'm unaware of that balances the higher mastery damage for ADs.

QuephaFeb 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

(Oops, I put Zed's face in there twice instead of Talon. Corrected.)

Ok, so now you're backtracking. First you said AP champs do more ability damage, and I showed the ratios show otherwise. Then you said AP champs have inherently higher base damages, and I used Lux (with multiple passive procs) to show otherwise.

Obviously any statement can be contradicted if you strip it down and take it as an ultimate law that applies in all situations and pretend that the damage on every ability in every kit in the game exists in a complete vacuum. Like how you now say that Lee Sin has as much range as Lux and are pretending as if every ability Lee Sin has is as long range as his Q. What next, are you going to say it might as well be since his Q is a gap closer? Sure, going into melee range isn't risky at all, Lee Sin can totally build glass cannon and use his ratios like Lux with NOOOOO cost in terms of his death count.

Who's next on your list of stupid comparisons? Are you going to talk about how Nunu has poor range and burst on his kit and pretend that his Q is just an average self heal without much utility? Should Janna be allowed to deal as much auto attack damage as Tryndamere because her tornadoes have such a slow missile speed? Every one of your statements stretches the limit of absurdity.

VekknaFeb 12, 20161 votes

Like how you now say that Lee Sin has as much range as Lux

Didn't say that.

pretending as if every ability Lee Sin has is as long range as his Q

Didn't say that either. I mentioned Zed's Q because it's a poking tool on very low CD with 900 range, which is pretty analogous to many mage poke spells.

going into melee range isn't risky at all

Nope, didn't say that either. I said the literal opposite of that, which is that the scaling and efficiency advantage for AD is probably "range tax." Here's that snippet for your convenience:

So I take it you are conceding my point and chalking it up to tax on range, shields, and cc. Well, Lee Sin has a shield, a slow, and an unavoidable displacement along with very high mobility and durability. Riven also has multiple CCs, tons of dashes, and a large shield. The only thing we're really left with is range, which is a significant thing. Zed's Q range fucks that hypothesis a bit, but maybe he's an outlier like LeBlanc or just overtuned.

Every one of your statements stretches the limit of absurdity.

But also proven with math, unlike literally everything you've said.

Who's next on your list of stupid comparisons?

If you're not mature enough to have a conversation without shit like this, then don't participate. It's really that simple. You've contributed nothing.

RalanrFeb 12, 20162 votes

Because AP has an easier potential of breaking 300 or 400 AP than AD.

I've always seen AD as an early game stat while AP is a late game stat. AD champions get the most out of their power early on while AP champions have to wait (Rod is a great example. After buying it you need to wait a certain amount of time before you get its full stats).

Fast metas make AP champions suffer because they are primarily slower champions.

legionnaire99Feb 12, 20161 votes

900 ap 240 ad

VekknaFeb 12, 20162 votes

Link the item builds and let's do the math. Let's compare the most common Kat and Riven builds since they're both completely manaless and stack damage:

item 3001 item 3285 item 3135 item 3157 item 3089 = 648 AP item 3071 item 3074 item 3072 item 3139 item 3036 = 320 AD

Final AP total is 202% of AD, and AD cost is 223% of AP cost. So that's at least on par with Rageblade. Still far short of 300%. Now let's compare Leblanc and Zed since they're both hybrid-range assassins:

item 3165 item 3001 item 3157 item 3135 item 3089 = 621 AP item 3142 item 3071 item 3156 item 3036 item 3153 = 245(1.25) = 306.25

Final AP total is 202% of bonus AD, and AD cost is 221% of AP cost. Maybe Zed is a bad example since he gets a 25% bonus AD multiplier in his kit. How about Anivia and Talon:

item 3027 item 3040 item 3135 item 3089 item 3151 = 688 AP item 3142 item 3074 item 3071 item 3036 item 3033 = 275 AD

This is the closest we'll get to the Thunderlord's disparity. AP total is 250% of bonus AD, and the AD cost is 260% of AP cost.

The main issue I see is that item 3089 is completely skewing all the values for every AP champ who doesn't build it. Like the final builds for Elise Zyra have 410 AP. Evelynn has 310. Vladimir has 360. If Deathcap is out of the picture, AD/AP proportions are almost always under the 1.56 ratio we would expect from AD's 156% cold price premium.

legionnaire99Feb 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Link the item builds and let's do the math. Let's compare the most common Kat and Riven builds since they're both completely manaless and stack damage:

= 648 AP = 320 AD

Final AP total is 202% of AD, and AD cost is 223% of AP cost. So that's at least on par with Rageblade. Still far short of 300%. Now let's compare Leblanc and Zed since they're both hybrid-range assassins:

= 621 AP = 245(1.25) = 306.25

Final AP total is 202% of bonus AD, and AD cost is 221% of AP cost. Maybe Zed is a bad example since he gets a 25% bonus AD multiplier in his kit. How about Anivia and Talon:

= 688 AP = 275 AD

This is the closest we'll get to the Thunderlord's disparity. AP total is 250% of bonus AD, and the AD cost is 260% of AP cost.

The main issue I see is that is completely skewing all the values for every AP champ who doesn't build it. Like the final builds for have 410 AP. has 310. has 360. If Deathcap is out of the picture, AD/AP proportions are almost always under the 1.56 ratio we would expect from AD's 156% cold price premium.

if an ad caster or adc can go 100% damage you put one stun on him and kill him RIGHT THERE that the scaling is bad

QuephaFeb 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The main issue I see is that is completely skewing all the values for every AP champ who doesn't build it. Like the final builds for have 410 AP. has 310. has 360. If Deathcap is out of the picture, AD/AP proportions are almost always under the 1.56 ratio we would expect from AD's 156% cold price premium.

Wow it's almost like when you look at the game as a whole instead of focusing in on tiny parts, it makes sense.

VekknaFeb 12, 20162 votes

Wow, if you read entire posts instead of tiny parts, it would make sense. There is no mathematical way to account for a triple AD scaling on Thunderlord's. You can justify the different on DFT if you use extreme examples skewed in favor of the AP build relative to the AD build.

If you're AP and don't build Deathcap, you scale worse than AD casters and pay more for the lower scaling. If you do build it, you can break even or pull ahead in efficiency by some metrics in the late game. Otherwise, being AD just scales better and is more cost efficient.

CatastropFeb 12, 20161 votes

Because AD items don't give 100+ AD unlike AP Items.

VekknaFeb 12, 20161 votes

That doesn't matter when you're comparing damage per gold.

Z StatisticFeb 12, 20162 votes

Um, yes it does?

Stats aren't a continuum. They are blocked into discrete items, which are subjected to constraints. You can't just buy 300 AD with 10.5k.

Dominick DestineFeb 12, 20161 votes

Because AD is generally a lot harder to get.

It used to be that AD ratios were worse because AD also gives raw auto attack damage... but then Riot added Spell Sword and justified it that way, then Spell Sword was removed so AD remained strong and AP got nerfed... even harder through itemization through time, gg.

VekknaFeb 12, 20161 votes

I realize it's harder to get AD, and I did the math showing the cost per point is 156% of the cost per point of AP. That doesn't explain why we have two mastery AD scalings that are 250% and 300% of the AP scalings.

At that point, you can easily have far less AD and still get more damage out of the masteries. Here's an example of what it costs to get to 100 damage from a DFT proc:

AD 167 AD 5428g

AP 400 AP 8320g

And to get 50 damage off Thunderlord's:

AD 167 AD 5428g

AP 500 AP 10,400g

So yeah, I understand that raw AD is harder to come by and that max values are lower. But they're not proportionately lower until a mage hits full build with Rabadon's, and even then you're not getting AP that's 300% of a full build AD champ.

WalkingInACircleFeb 12, 20161 votes

Next you'll realize mr is cheaper than armor. And that of course ad has inherent advantages in auto attacks.

You can tell me why.

VekknaFeb 12, 20161 votes

I couldn't tell you why, but I'd guess it's because:

-everyone gets base armor but only melee get base MR -armor pen is cheaper and more accessible -higher flat armor pen earlier in the game slants toward early power and squishier targets -higher % magic pen and lower early flat pen slants toward late power and tankier targets

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 12, 20161 votes

because you can get close to 700-1k ap while being somewhat durable. meanwhile. if you go full ad. you will probably have around 450 ad. and you won't be durable. I mean honestly you can buy two ludens and not need boots because of the 20% total movement speed. 10% stacks twice. that will give you an equal amount of movement speed swiftness boots give if your base movement speed is like 325. which i think is the lowest in the game. most mages are slow. but still around 335.

VekknaFeb 12, 20161 votes

Scroll down.