vote: scrap placements

Quil Evrything·Dec 9, 2016·2 votes·710 views

it seems to be widely experienced, that beginning-of-season "placements"' sole purpose, is simply to screw people over as far as ranking goes. To force them to waste their time, spending literally WEEKS of time.. to climb back to where they were already.

I'm hereby starting a vote/petition to do away with these inter-season "placements" entirely. It's an insult to all players.

If you dont realize how much time this wastes, search in page for my "add up the time" post, below.

TL;DR : At least 2 months of time wasted because of this garbage.

28 Comments

DynikusDec 9, 20164 votes

First people bitch and moan that there are too many boosted players, and there should be a ranked reset with solo queue so all the boosted players get dropped down to where they're supposed to be. Riot does exactly that, and people bitch and moan because they have to climb again. It's like this every season. There's nothing riot can do that will stop the vocal minority from complaining on the boards.

10xDoubleliftDec 9, 20162 votes

placements are good could use some more clarity as to why someone who wins 6+ is still ranked bronze 5 even if they win lane in 7+ games, it stupid even if you win all 10 and were in bronze 4/5 last year youll still be placed there regardless of your perfect win record and you stomping people in lane and have a 3+ kda

ViiLLAiNDec 11, 20162 votes

idk why if last season i finish in gold 5 u wanna throw me in bronze 5 to waste my time climbing thru pub stopping players over and over again just to get back to where my actual skill level is then finally start the climb again

people dont play this game 24/7 games are 45 mins long

its not fun to have to play with people way below ur skill level for x amount of games its honestly pointless and negatively affects players who are in bronze who are tyring to get better but cant because they get stomped on all the time by people better then them who dont belong in their elo

Tukan TonkoDec 9, 20161 votes

Why do you complain? You mentioned that it takes weeks to get where you already was. Then I have a question for you. Would you get higher now if you got placed where you ended up in last season?

If your answer is yes then it shouldn't be a problem to get where you are in a few games. If your answer is no then, well, try and get where you should be.

As Dynikus already said, people are complaining about boosted animals, I mean... players in their games. Now they are complaining about bad placements. But let's be honest. If you are good, you will climb fast, I mean, really fast, system will even help you to climb fast. I still remember a game on my second account, I was somewhere in gold I believe and I had like 14 LP, won one match and got to promos. I don't know how it's even possible, but, yeah, system helps as well.

And let me say one more thing. If you started in bronze in season 1 and climbed by one division every season you would be somewhere in diamond after this season promos.

Quil EvrythingDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

As Dynikus already said, people are complaining about boosted animals, I mean... players in their games. Now they are complaining about bad placements. But let's be honest. If you are good, you will climb fast, I mean, really fast, system will even help you to climb fast. I still remember a game on my second account, I was somewhere in gold I believe and I had like 14 LP, won one match and got to promos. I don't know how it's even possible, but, yeah, system helps as well.

OBVIOUSLY, if you are gold, you will climb out of bronze fast. But how do people get to gold level play? By climbing through silver. people dont just magically jump in skill, they need play against gradually increasing levels of skill.

The current system lets gold+ people climb out fast, but penalizes everyone else.

And let me say one more thing. If you started in bronze in season 1 and climbed by one division every season you would be somewhere in diamond after this season promos

If you're a child who has 80 hours a week to play the game, sure!

If, however, you "only" have 10 hours a week, you have limited time to improve your skills and climb.

Under the current system, people have to spend a huge amount of time getting back to where they were before. It's only after that point, that they can play against better class players (relative to them) and start to actually improve, and climb to BETTER than they were before. Otherwise, they are stuck in a place where they cant improve much.

This aint right. As far as "boosted animals"... the ratio of boosted animals, to people getting screwed over, is very small. Make the system favor the greater good. Let the boosted animals roam, but stop screwing over the majority.

Tukan TonkoDec 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6bvhHd6h,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-12-09T16:18:49.929+0000)

OBVIOUSLY, if you are gold, you will climb out of bronze fast. But how do people get to gold level play? By climbing through silver. people dont just magically jump in skill, they need play against gradually increasing levels of skill.

The current system lets gold+ people climb out fast, but penalizes everyone else.

This is funny, why do you think that gold+ players are favored in this case? We drop as well, we probably drop even more than anyone under gold. Diamond players fall to platinum or gold. This system even helps you climb faster than before, giving you one free win if you fail to win promos for the first time.

This reset is needed, it's here to sort players. Your skill could've got worse and you no longer belong to where you orginaly was placed, thus, you will find it hard to climb back again. If you are in silver, your skill is only slightly better than bronze level players. You can still learn there, learn champions, game knowledge, map awarness, warding, macro game. And if you deserve to get higher this season, trust me, you will get higher.

If you're a child who has 80 hours a week to play the game, sure!

If, however, you "only" have 10 hours a week, you have limited time to improve your skills and climb.

Under the current system, people have to spend a huge amount of time getting back to where they were before. It's only after that point, that they can play against better class players (relative to them) and start to actually improve, and climb to BETTER than they were before. Otherwise, they are stuck in a place where they cant improve much.

This aint right. As far as "boosted animals"... the ratio of boosted animals, to people getting screwed over, is very small. Make the system favor the greater good. Let the boosted animals roam, but stop screwing over the majority.

Even with a job and other activities, if you are willing to spend 10 hours a week on league you can't really complain. As I stated above, I don't need those 80 hours a week (which is a hilarious number btw.) I don't even play rankeds that much and I can still climb without any problems. What you are pointing out there, if I get your point, is that you are trying to tell me that there is an elo hell, right? No such thing exists, it's just an excuse used by bad players. Bad teammates, bad games, we all know those, not only bad players. Yet, we climb. If you have to spend hundreds of hours just to get where you was there is something wrong with you, not with the system. I like resets, I enjoy them, I can test myself, I can tell if I got better over time or if I got worse. I still remember losing 9 games in a row, still advancing in division after that.

So, to sum it up, if you are silver and you become bronze this season know this, maybe all silvers are in bronze now, so you still have games with similar skill rating, and even if there were only bronze players, it's not a big difference, tbh. But I will give you wise words someone else said. Competetion is fine and healthy, but fun is all that matters. Play for fun and you will improve over time, you will climb over time as well. Don't worry, if you deserve that, you will get there.

Quil EvrythingDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Even with a job and other activities, if you are willing to spend 10 hours a week on league you can't really complain.

whut? "cant really complain" ???

have you actually stopped to add up the time involved here?

lets say that you were silver 5 last season. but broken placements put you at b4. playing perfectly, it would take you approximately 7 games to get each ranking back. that makes 7x4 = 28 PERFECT GAMES, to get back to just where you were before. Except that not even pros have 28 perfect games in a row, becuase of trolls, etc. for normal people, "if you just win 55% of your games, you'll eventually rise".

Well lets be optimistic and say you win 60% of your games. that means win 3, lose 2. consistently. That means it will take you.. If you're LUCKY... around 20 games to get to promo, and win back one rank. Except if you lose them through trolls or whatever, you will have to play another 6 games to get to promos and win. average it: 23 games, to rise one notch. 4 rungs back to where you were. Means around 100 games.. Just To Get Back To Where You Were.

on average, with queue times, queue dodges, etc. that means 100 hours. To get back to where you were.

10 hours a week. means TWO AND A HALF MONTHS, JUST TO GET BACK TO WHERE YOU WERE.

Even if you have a 60% win rate so "deserve" to be back there!!

THIS IS A FKING WASTE OF TIME. It's demoralizing.

Kill the re-placements.

Tukan TonkoDec 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6bvhHd6h,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-10T00:14:14.592+0000)

whut? "cant really complain" ???

I mean, you are willing to spend your time playing rankeds. Why would you do that if it's waste of time?

have you actually stopped to add up the time involved here?

lets say that you were silver 5 last season. but broken placements put you at b4. playing perfectly, it would take you approximately 7 games to get each ranking back. that makes 7x4 = 28 PERFECT GAMES, to get back to just where you were before. Except that not even pros have 28 perfect games in a row, becuase of trolls, etc. for normal people, "if you just win 55% of your games, you'll eventually rise".

Well lets be optimistic and say you win 60% of your games. that means win 3, lose 2. consistently. That means it will take you.. If you're LUCKY... around 20 games to get to promo, and win back one rank. Except if you lose them through trolls or whatever, you will have to play another 6 games to get to promos and win. average it: 23 games, to rise one notch. 4 rungs back to where you were. Means around 100 games.. Just To Get Back To Where You Were.

on average, with queue times, queue dodges, etc. that means 100 hours. To get back to where you were.

10 hours a week. means TWO AND A HALF MONTHS, JUST TO GET BACK TO WHERE YOU WERE.

Even if you have a 60% win rate so "deserve" to be back there!!

Okay, I got to admit that I have to agree with your math. But do you actually know how this system works? No, you don't and I don't know either. But we know how it approximately works. You forgot to mention that system is trying to place you where you belong, but it has nothing to do with win rate. If it was only about win rate system would be broken. System takes into account your personal skill, skill of your teammates, your opponents. You can't just take something you don't know, summarize it and say it will take you exactly 2 and a half month. It simply won't. Last season in Gold1 I could win one game, lose 2 games and I still had LP gain. Only after I lost 3 games I went negative. So I could've 40% win rate and still climb according to your math. I mean, you are right what did you said, but you forgot about this simple fact. So, no, not really 2 and a half month. It's not only about win rates either. It's mostly and always about you. This is competetive game, meaning it must take yours skill into account. And this system is mostly based on your performance, similar to post-game performance grades. Still, I don't know how it works, but I can assure you that it works.

And let's be honest, if it really took too long, let's say even 3 months, you have a loooot of time to actually climb higher and higher. You have almost a year untill season ends. Meaning that you have 2/3 of this time to actually climb. This season will probably be even longer. Waste of time? Maybe? You can eventually get better while climbing back, and I will repeat myself, you still have fun playing the game, and that's something that matters the most. If you don't like how it is simply stop playing rankeds, play normals only. I don't think that any border/icon makes you worse/better player anyways. Some players plays on platinum level yet they never touch rankeds and they are perfectly fine with it. The only thing you will miss is probably skin, which is just a visual change on one champion.

Quil EvrythingDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You forgot to mention that system is trying to place you where you belong, but it has nothing to do with win rate.

If it was only about win rate system would be broken. System takes into account your personal skill, skill of your teammates, your opponents.

You stated it wrong, Twice.

first off.. the system is SUPPOSED to "place you where you belong". but it doesnt. Hence "the system is broken". ie: "it doesnt do what it is supposed to do".

Secondly, you incorrectly claim it uses all that other junk. Riot I believe has stated that it is pretty much almost exclusively to do with win rate.

the WEIGHT of that win or loss, is adjusted by the MMR of your team and enemy team. But that's pretty much it. your KDR, your score, etc, etc. has zero effect on that stuff.

DrCyanideDec 10, 20161 votes

I've just got to start by say thanks for making a poll that's not "yes/no" for this. I love seeing good polls on the boards, I think it helps get a better feel for reactions.

I think placements need some changes. It's not too uncommon for someone to spend ~100 games to get to where the system thinks they should be, but that could be all the ranked games a person plays that year, leaving no time to actually climb (or not much time to play games at their actual skill level).

That said, I'm not sure placements should be done away with all together. There's a sense of accomplishment that comes from climbing, and that's lost if the system just places you at your skill level and you stay there for the next 100 games with no change.

Quil EvrythingDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That said, I'm not sure placements should be done away with all together. There's a sense of accomplishment that comes from climbing, and that's lost if the system just places you at your skill level and you stay there for the next 100 games with no change.

err, what? I think you just contradicted yourself. If "there's a sense of accomplishment that comes from climbing".. and a person spend months getting to, lets say silver... and then next season placements slap them right down to bronze 4 again even when they win the placements by more than 50%... That's just TAKEN AWAY that person's accomplishments

DrCyanideDec 10, 20161 votes

Cut the difference. Rather than going from Silver 5 to Bronze 4, being put at Bronze 1 or Bronze 2 makes it so your whole season wasn't for nothing, while still challenging you to climb again.

Quil EvrythingDec 10, 20161 votes

You just randomly changed the numbers to support the status quo without basis. in reality, MANY people are reporting drops of exactly the level I just said. 4 ranks. (or more, even)

EVEN WHEN THEY WIN ALL 10 PLACEMENT GAMES.

The new-season placement system is broken and a timewaster. And why "challenge you to climb again" in the first place??? how is that in any way justified?? Why not just leave things exactly how they were without any reset or placement whatsoever. That reflects your actual gameplay. It accurately reflects your level.

The one exception to this would be if someone hasnt played, and has been saved from rank decay because they are lower than gold or whatever.

in that situation, and ONLY that situation, I think it's fair to say, "okay, you havent played for a while. Lets see where you 'deserve' to be".

but for most people who have been playing ranked all along, they're ALREADY WHERE THEY BELONG.

CrazyBear1987Dec 10, 20161 votes

I wouldn't remove the option, instead I would give the option to just skip placements entirely and start in Bronze 5, if you already know your going to bronze tier anyway.

I have never played ranked, never did placements, if i were to start now, just let me start at bronze 5.

Quil EvrythingDec 10, 20161 votes

nononon. trust me. you do NOT want to start at bronze 5. even bronze 4 is a SLIGHT improvement. been there done that.

TS MediaDec 11, 20161 votes

Tbh, I'd rather start down in B5 every season. :>

Snowman ArcDec 10, 20161 votes

Nah, if you are good and undeserving of your rank, you will climb without much effort. After all, you still play the same game, with the same champions you like.

(also, there is a good chance to get some good KDAs in bronze :D )

Tukan TonkoDec 10, 20161 votes

You are blindly talking your "truth" because you feel offended by the system. So let me ask you a question. Have you played in season 1? I don't think so because you think this system is broken. Hell no, season 1 system was a system that I would even believe elohell would exist there. To compare these two, you was not protected by divisions, if you lost you just went down. And you even could end up unranked, because you had to reach that bronze elo, because there was something worse than bronze back in the day. And resets happens every single season. You could've get used to it.

Also, system is doing what it should. I am not talking theoretically, I experienced it myself. Already told you how I could lose 2 games and still be positive with LP with only 1 win. If the system was so broken as you state, if it has nothing to do with your skill and only took MMR into account, well, I was supposed to get like 2/1 to be positive, because my win rate was not that good and also MMR of my enemies was just slightly better, not enought to force system to think that I belong to platinum.

So how does mastery system grade you? Out from MMR and win ratio only? If you find something to back up your words, please, send it, I would love to learn that I am wrong. Sure win ratio matters, you need to win the games to actually climb and MMR was always a thing. But your performance counts as well. That's how the pros get their smurfs to diamond so fast. Without this, they would be stuck somewhere in gold.

Quil EvrythingDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So how does mastery system grade you? Out from MMR and win ratio only? If you find something to back up your words, please, send it, I would love to learn that I am wrong. Sure win ratio matters, you need to win the games to actually climb and MMR was always a thing. But your performance counts as well. That's how the pros get their smurfs to diamond so fast. Without this, they would be stuck somewhere in gold.

Wrong.

pros get smurfs up the ladder so fast, because all accounts get an MMR boost, the first season they play ranked. This is a known fact. Second of all, they get it fast, because they know how to WIN GAMES. their win rate is very high. It has nothing to do with them being graded on their "skill in game." Just the fact that they won. This is trivially verifiable, by comparing LP gain/loss across games where they do well, vs when they die a lot and are behind. It's the same.

Tukan TonkoDec 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6bvhHd6h,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-12-10T16:23:41.143+0000)

Wrong.

pros get smurfs up the ladder so fast, because all accounts get an MMR boost, the first season they play ranked. This is a known fact.

So everyone gets MMR boost to get diamond MMR? Time to make smurfs then. If we got so enormous MMR boost like you are pointing here we wouldn't have bronze at all. Also, MMR gets adjusted very fast, so if you play with lower MMR players your MMR will drop rapidly after few games, be it win or loss. So, yeah, wrong, right?

Second of all, they get it fast, because they know how to WIN GAMES. their win rate is very high. It has nothing to do with them being graded on their "skill in game." Just the fact that they won. This is trivially verifiable, by comparing LP gain/loss across games where they do well, vs when they die a lot and are behind. It's the same.

Sure they know how to win games, but their win rates aren't very high. They also get bad players in their team, as we all do. And sure, you can solo carry the game in some points, not every single game.

You also can't just take LP gains and tell that it's always the same if it obviously isn't. Why do you think people can't climb when they simply don't deserve to? System gives them very small LP gain and big LP loss. If everything you said was truth there would be real elohell, thus meaning that they would be locked from climbing at all. They would've to win 20 games in a row to actually climb. This would mean that system is broken. I even saw 1 LP gain per win. In this case, win ratio doesn't matter, because without perfect winratio you won't climb. Does winrate matter then? And also, MMR would not rise as well, because you will play with players in similar MMR, it would be adjusted only slightly. It would force you to fell few divisions behind just to start climbing again. Happened to you? I don't think so, because it's not broken. It's just fine.

Quil EvrythingDec 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So everyone gets MMR boost to get diamond MMR? Time to make smurfs then. If we got so enormous MMR boost like you are pointing here we wouldn't have bronze at all.

i didnt say "enormous". but enough to make a serious difference.

You dont seem to want to listen to anyone except yourself. So okay fine. Please go make yourself a smurf. Get it to level 30, play placements. you will probably get placed in s2 or s1, since you're gold.

Even I got placed straight into s2 when I made a smurf account, first time placements. with only 7 wins or something

Tukan TonkoDec 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6bvhHd6h,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T04:15:54.765+0000)

i didnt say "enormous". but enough to make a serious difference.

If a serious difference is making it to mid/high silver then yes, you are right. But you was talking about pro players with smurf that get to diamond fast. They will still get to silver and not to gold or higher, and after that their MMR is created to match silver players, they won't get higher MMR than that. It's not a known fact. It may seem like MMR boost but it's simply because they have no MMR before they start playing. On the other hand, we have MMR from last seasons, so we can start with something.

You dont seem to want to listen to anyone except yourself. So okay fine. Please go make yourself a smurf. Get it to level 30, play placements. you will probably get placed in s2 or s1, since you're gold.

Don't worry about myself, I do listen to you, how would I even reply? And what does the fact that I am gold have something with fresh lvl 30 account that never touched rankeds? I can go 0/10 and be in bronze as well.

Even I got placed straight into s2 when I made a smurf account, first time placements. with only 7 wins or something

If you find it better to play on smurf do so then. But it won't be much of a difference even if your main is in bronze 5. I even find it easier to climb from bronze. I would like to experience that rank, it's famous or rather unfamous for trolling and bad players. Would be a challenge and even if it's the lowest rank, I could get better here simply because it's challenge.

Quil EvrythingDec 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I even find it easier to climb from bronze. I would like to experience that rank, it's famous or rather unfamous for trolling and bad players. Would be a challenge and even if it's the lowest rank, I could get better here simply because it's challenge.

if you want a real challenge, somehow get your hands on an account that is ELO 500. and play on a weekend. you'll get to try to carry the teams that have 3-lane feeders. now that's a challenge.

Tukan TonkoDec 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6bvhHd6h,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T15:10:37.399+0000)

if you want a real challenge, somehow get your hands on an account that is ELO 500. and play on a weekend. you'll get to try to carry the teams that have 3-lane feeders. now that's a challenge.

You forget that enemy team will be exactly the same, so if you are better, you will climb, if not you belong there. I was under bronze elo in S1 and back then it was really hard, now... it's easy, really. I would sure try it! It must be fun and real challenge as well.

Quil EvrythingDec 11, 20161 votes

you keep spouting theories. i speak from experience. in reality it doesnt work that way. you've never been at that ELO. i have.

if you play solo on weekends, the other team will have the premade most of the time. you get feeders on YOUR side, a disaproportionate amount of the time.

Tukan TonkoDec 11, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6bvhHd6h,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T17:40:56.362+0000)

you keep spouting theories. i speak from experience. in reality it doesnt work that way. you've never been at that ELO. i have.

Believe me, I am not a god, or even that good player. I was in bronze myself, hell I was even glad that I finally got to bronze, I was in silver as well, I am every single season, I was in gold, I was in plat, so I know how do you feel about these players. Everybody gets them, trust me, so, it's pretty even. I thought I deserved gold, but teammates were dragging me down, I thought I deserved plat, but so many trollers in promos. Now after few seasons I know that I was just bad and I didn't even deserved ranks I once had. It's not about teammates. Well, I mean it is, but it's your ranking, you always get someone bad/good, but other team does as well.

if you play solo on weekends, the other team will have the premade most of the time. you get feeders on YOUR side, a disaproportionate amount of the time.

So? They will feed bot like premades do? xD Don't worry about that, really.

SugarRayMoeDec 11, 20161 votes

The ladder is full of boosted bonobos thanks to the dynamic-boosting-service queue.

I've been placed bronze in this account, but still happy. I will climb, and the ladder will be cleaned. I'm so tired of silver5/gold5/plat5 bonobos pushing to the next tower without any vision at all, they will get what they deserve. So will I (whatever it is).

Tukan TonkoDec 11, 20161 votes