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Something that really irks me about Rhaast's passive

Malicious Metal·Jun 30, 2017·80 votes·5,212 views

Rhaast heals for upwards of 43% of the damage his spells deal

Rhaast passive basically makes him more durable the more damage he deals as more damage->more heals->more survivability.

There is a similar mechanic in the game, that was deemed "Toxic" and unbalancable by Riot and it's none other than Mordekaiser's IRON MAN.

Yet for converting only 25% of the damage he deals into a SHIELD Mordekaiser has: -400 less base Hp than Kayn/Rhaast -The shield decays -Shield is temporary whereas heals last -Mordekaiser is less mobile -Has NO hard CC

And yet for some reason Mordekaiser's passive is seen as a failed design when Rhaast's passive is basically the same, with the exception of it being reduced by Grievous wounds. And even then he has more tools in his kit.

It just baffles me that Riot actually introduced a different version of Mordekaiser's passive even though it's regarded as one of the reasons he can't be allowed to be "good". And yes, I might just be over reacting, but it's really aggravating for me as I was so close to actually believe Morde NEEDS to lose his damage->durability conversion to be allowed to be balanced. And yet Rhaast gets released.

EDIT: I'm NOT complaining about Rhaast's passive, I'm simply sharing my somewhat annoyed views on the matter. Mordekaiser's passive is always seen as a big balancing issue and I myself suggested changing his %shielding only to affect his CHAMPION damage. I actually think this opens up some ways to keep Iron Man for Mordekaiser, albeit retuned and made somewhat more interactive.

144 Comments

AnonagonJun 30, 201776 votes

The reason it didn't work for Morde wasn't that it just was too powerful in general. It just was a problem in laning, where consistent sustain of that design is crushing to deal with. Since Kayn/Rhaast literally doesnt have a passive for the first ten minutes of the game, its not really a problem (though it might be an overtuned number in practice)

ParoeJun 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The reason it didn't work for Morde wasn't that it just was too powerful in general. It just was a problem in laning, where consistent sustain of that design is crushing to deal with. Since Kayn/Rhaast literally doesnt have a passive for the first ten minutes of the game, its not really a problem (though it might be an overtuned number in practice)

Its also pretty heavily level locked. Rhaast also doesnt deal a whole lot of base damage - its mostly % HP. WHich is how %HP should be; it shouldnt be tacked on to a good base damage, it should BE the base damage.
Even with 350AD he still doesnt do a whole of damage, he can assassinate squishies sure (i think riot is confused on what they wanted him to be... His kit screams "IM A DIVER" but they tote him as a fully fledged assassin...) but he really thrives on that split push 1v1/1v2 and due to his base damage being mostly %HP hes going to clear waves roughly the same rate all game.

r4ndomkillJun 30, 20174 votes

riot has said the rhaast is meant to be a diver and shadow assassin is meant to be an assassin.

GelsominoKillerJun 30, 201716 votes

It's unfortunate that a comment like yours isn't more upvoted and therefore more visible in the thread.

Nobody ever called unhealthy Morde's shield in a team fight. The problem with it is merely in lane interactions. Kayn obviously does not suffer from this.

That's why I really don't really see the point of this topic.

AlienPrimateJul 1, 20176 votes

I have a suggested fix for Morde after reading your comment. Make Iron man similar to Wukong's passive where it is larger for each nearby enemy champion. They could make Morde's shield 5% more of his max health for each additional nearby enemy champion past 1.

0-1 = 25% 2 = 30% 3= 35% 4 = 40% 5 = 45%

Goodnight NunuJun 30, 201743 votes

Well, Morde doesn't make Riot big bucks. He's not a mobile, LC$bigplays champion with edgy anime aesthetics.

JhomasTeffersonJun 30, 201735 votes

You Riven gotta LeeSin make Fiora flashy Ahri LC$ Poppy plays.

Cosmic WarperJun 30, 201716 votes

{quoted}

You gotta make flashy LC$ plays.

why is poppy there lmao

RalanrJun 30, 201739 votes

Because her canceling flashy plays is itself flashy.

JhomasTeffersonJun 30, 20178 votes

Yeah there was a period a short while back where she would build full tank and 1v5, back when courage was still 7% and there was more hp in the game.

PennsJun 30, 201727 votes

He does have to transform first tho so he wont have it in lane.. he doesnt even lane.

a shield can "overheal" and it works against minions.

An Undead bratJun 30, 201720 votes

he doesnt even lane

Unless you play him in a lane.

crippler38Jun 30, 20171 votes

But spoopy ghost walk ganks tho, your argument is invalid.

An Undead bratJun 30, 20173 votes

Spoopy ghost walk roams tho

Sire HippingtonJun 30, 201726 votes

Well, Riot often has doublestandarts when it comes to 'toxic'-Mechanics.

Getting more survivabillity from doing more damage is 'toxic', so we have to be carefull with morde or Aatrox, yet lifesteal especially on adc is apparently perfectly fine.

Close combat permaslow with a chargeup on a melee with no hard mobillity is toxic(RIP Skarner ), but it's totally fine on a range dps like Ashe that is untouchable for many melees while also inescapable, or on evryone that builts one of those failed designs item 3022 item 3116

Counterplay is important and we have to take reliabillity from tanks/assasins, yet it's totally fine for marksmen to reach 1.5k dps by rightclicking from a distance

nm1010Jun 30, 201715 votes

Counterplay is important and we have to take reliabillity from tanks/assasins, yet it's totally fine for marksmen to reach 1.5k dps by rightclicking from a distance

Fun fact an ulting twitch can reach upwards of 3k dps Against your entire team from stealth

MhihnjJun 30, 201715 votes

not fun fact

crippler38Jun 30, 201727 votes

The fact is fun, the reality isn't.

ArakadiaJun 30, 20171 votes

Is that 3k per person or added up?

nm1010Jun 30, 20177 votes

Per person assuming an optimal damage build

item 3031 item 3085 item 3087 item 3046 item 3072 item 3036

You get

444 ad x 2.5 as x 2.5 damage for IE crits = 2775 x 1.05 damage amp from masteries = 2913.75 dps

Good luck tanking that for any realistic amount of time, especially since I ignored that juicy statikk burst at the beginning too.

Edit: He gets an extra 555 against tanks with 1k hp on him too :D

ArakadiaJun 30, 20172 votes

You also have no boots in that build.

SH AzykanJul 1, 20174 votes

item 3046 item 3087 item 3085 who needs boots?

ProfDrDeathJun 30, 20172 votes

Added up.

Even Twitch can't deal 1200 damage per attacks at 2.5 attacks per second.

YaskamasandwichJun 30, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ULQWE6R,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-06-30T15:06:08.195+0000)

Well, Riot often has doublestandarts when it comes to 'toxic'-Mechanics.

Getting more survivabillity from doing more damage is 'toxic', so we have to be carefull with morde or Aatrox, yet lifesteal especially on adc is apparently perfectly fine.

Close combat permaslow with a chargeup on a melee with no hard mobillity is toxic(RIP ), but it's totally fine on a range dps like that is untouchable for many melees while also inescapable, or on evryone that builts one of those failed designs

Counterplay is important and we have to take reliabillity from tanks/assasins, yet it's totally fine for marksmen to reach 1.5k dps by rightclicking from a distance

Or the fact that no one else except for Marksmen are allowed to have burst sustain damage. Even though it was considered one of the most toxic things. Oh and Marksmen are allowed to counter their counters being assassins (wait what?!) But tanks can't have champions or ways to counter Marksmen. The fact that almost every single Marksmen has more than one power spike in the game due to having to have God like late game. Which is one of the balance strategic things holding the class back. Marksmen and to an extent Slayers break a lot of rules that other classes are never allowed to.

Gee I wonder why the meta is all about Marksmen now.

Big LincolnJun 30, 201718 votes

mord's got way less downtime on his spells

and a shield is a lot stronger just because it's extra HP, not countered by grievous wounds or anything. the only thing you can do is do more damage than he can shield up

Malicious MetalJun 30, 20179 votes

I'm not saying one's stronger than the other but I'm pretty pissy about the fact that one of them is shunned and the other isn't. Morde better keep this mechanic post rework in a cooler, more interactive way, there's literally no reason for that to change now that they seem to be okay with damage output making a champion more durable.

ShaolinToiletJun 30, 20176 votes

You're pissy about everything

Voluug13Jun 30, 201711 votes

After being shitted on like Morde mains, I can fully understand if MM is pissy about X ''''''toxic''''''' mechanic being redone on a hypermobile LC$ assassin.

Big LincolnJun 30, 20177 votes

he's not even hypermobile lol

Voluug13Jul 1, 20174 votes

Compared to Morde, everything is hypermobile.

RebonackJun 30, 201710 votes

I'm pretty sure it has to do with laning. Laning warps the game's balance pretty hard in terms of what Riot can and can't allow to be good. Raast doesn't get his crazy spellvamp during the laning phase and thus it can be as strong as it is.

SalronJun 30, 20177 votes

You literally said it yourself, its affected by grevious wounds, and doesnt go past his max HP, which means Morde's passive is stronger in that aspect

And he doesnt have access to this until midgame, so it wont make his laning a problem

notice me Sin piJun 30, 20172 votes

grievous wound is also not accessible for the enemy team until the first back too, even with the new item ~~that exceeds 500g~~

Yax JasbonJun 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=notice me Sin pi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ULQWE6R,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-06-30T18:00:42.239+0000)

grievous wound is also not accessible for the enemy team until the first back too, even with the new item ~~that exceeds 500g~~

Ignite?

notice me Sin piJun 30, 20171 votes

definitely works if it's for all-in. Not really reliable if used by poke-oriented champ.

My Waifu VanillaJun 30, 20172 votes

I mean he isn't going to transform until after the mid laner gets morello anyway.

TheDeviceJun 30, 20173 votes

So funny how biased the boards have become. You hate Kayn for personal reasons (anime, edgelord, whatever) not because of his actual kit.

MM is so intent on trying to be uspet about kayn he just happens to forget about a champ called Nasus

Why hasn't MM made a thread about hating on nasus since... forever? Because MM is biased and he doesn't like the new champ because the new champ has a dash, or is and edgelord, or is based on anime.

That's what all these Kayn hate threads are really about.

Big LincolnJun 30, 20179 votes

this strawman is so full of straw it's bursting at the seams

TheDeviceJun 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ULQWE6R,comment-id=00160000,timestamp=2017-06-30T19:06:41.667+0000)

this strawman is so full of straw it's bursting at the seams

explain. How is this a strawman?

Big LincolnJun 30, 20179 votes

You hate Kayn for personal reasons

mm made a thread saying he loved how edgy Kayn is and plays him frequently on the pbe

not because of his actual kit.

this thread is entirely about a part of his kit that can be compared to someone else's kit

you've just constructed a separate argument, completely unrelated to the OP, and then attacked that argument

TheDeviceJun 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ULQWE6R,comment-id=0016000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-30T19:12:59.366+0000)

mm made a thread saying he loved how edgy Kayn is and plays him frequently on the pbe

this thread is entirely about a part of his kit that can be compared to someone else's kit

you've just constructed a separate argument, completely unrelated to the OP, and then attacked that argument

His argument is a strawman in that case.

His argument is about how its wrong for Kayn to have his passive because Morde had a completely different passive. It gave morde a shield. Morde had morde spell damge built into his kit and so on.

My argument isn't to disprove that fact. My argument was entirely different from that obvious strawman.

My argument is that another champion with a completely similar passive (nasus gets 20% passive lifesteal) but has never said anything about it. My point is is that he hasn't because he has some gripe against kayn or maybe he's just riding the kayn hate bandwagon.

He says he doesn't dislike kayn but I've even read his other threads and personally sensed a fair level of animosity or at least sarcasm in his words.

So, in other words, no. It's not a strawman because it was admittedly a seperate argument. his argument is plainly wrong because they are completely different abilities in completely different kits. Lifesteal/Spell Vamp is different. Way different.

Sraeg2013Jun 30, 20173 votes

Because the price for Nasus' passive is very similar to Mordekaiser's.

His damage is front-loaded into a single-targetted melee-ranged spell, he has no mobility and a slow as his only CC. You can quite literally prevent Nasus from utilizing his passive altogether.

Your point is just as or more biased than you accuse MM of being.

TheDeviceJun 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Because the price for Nasus' passive is very similar to Mordekaiser's.

His damage is front-loaded into a single-targetted melee-ranged spell, he has no mobility and a slow as his only CC. You can quite literally prevent Nasus from utilizing his passive altogether.

Your point is just as or more biased than you accuse MM of being.

not at all. If they are both just as dissimilar to Morde's passive then my argument still stands. Why choose to complain about Kayn's when Nasus has been there the whole time?

My argument is still valid. I never said they were comparable in the first place. I actually have already said they are completely different and are on different kits. All you're doing is agreeing with me.

Sraeg2013Jun 30, 20172 votes

not at all. If they are both just as dissimilar to Morde's passive then my argument still stands. Why choose to complain about Kayn's when Nasus has been there the whole time?

https://68.media.tumblr.com/49003d74b01c4bf9bfb1f3c26a46f14f/tumblr_inline_o4db4uE15d1qafrh6_540.png

I just said Nasus and Mordekaiser are similar, not the other way around. Read comments you respond to.

All you're doing is agreeing with me.

Sure I do... if you negate every single sentences in that post.

TheDeviceJun 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

https://68.media.tumblr.com/49003d74b01c4bf9bfb1f3c26a46f14f/tumblr_inline_o4db4uE15d1qafrh6_540.png

I just said Nasus and Mordekaiser are similar, not the other way around. Read comments you respond to.

Sure I do... if you negate every single sentences in that post.

As I said, they are both just as dissimilar to morde's but could be described as otherwise the way MM did for Kayn.

Nasus also has infinite scaling on his Q which also gains range every R. The fact is all these kits are different and different enough to warrant different but slightly similar passives. MM original comment is total BS. Hes complaining about something that can just as easily be complained about Nasus.

Nasus has an infinite scaling on his Q. Does Kayn have an infinite scaling magic damage skill? No.

We can go at this for hours until we come to the original conclusion I've stated. They are different kits and you can make the same BS argument about Nasus as MM has with Kayn.

You've already agree'd with me by saying MM is biased in his argument. You literally agree with me. You're saying I'm biased.. because... I have no idea.

Sraeg2013Jun 30, 20172 votes

You've already agree'd with me by saying MM is biased in his argument.

Holy... Read. The. Comment. You. Respond. To.

{quoted} Your point is just as or more biased than you accuse MM of being.

I haven't even implied what you said I supposedly did.

You literally agree with me. You're saying I'm biased.. because... I have no idea.

If I said I do NOT agree, then I do NOT agree.

Not to mention your use of the word "literally".

TheDeviceJun 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Holy... Read. The. Comment. You. Respond. To.

I haven't even implied what you said I supposedly did.

If I said I do NOT agree, then I do NOT agree.

Not to mention your use of the word "literally".

Jesus.. How am I being biased? What? How? Explain.

And you said that Nasus having his passive makes sense.. and somehow it doesn't on kayn because its all "frontloaded?" into his Q and he has one slow. Which means he may never use his passive at all..... are you serious? (has anyone ever heard of Nasus not using his passive? lol) I mean XD

Thats your argument.

Here we go.

Nasus also has a health steroid which means he can survive longer in teamfights than kayn, meaning he can get even more use out of his passive than Kayn would. Also, he has infinite scaling which means he'll naturally heal more overall than kayn could ever potentially heal from his passive.

I can make the argument as follows.

Something that really irks me about Nasus' passive. He has all this built in sustain from his passive, essentially gaining sutain from his attacks just like mordes old playstyle. He's also able to scale infinitely and has CC to boot. Morde doesn't have any cc at all. Lets not forget about Nasus' aoe ult that also heals him a percentage of damage dealt and gives him that big max health steroid. And he has zone ability. What gives riot?

But.. explain how this makes me biased.... Please. Explain to me how you are clearly not being just as biased as MM.

And I couldn't find your quote, I'm doing multiple things. Admittedly I thought you said I was being just as biased as he was. So now you can tell me how I'm being biased.

Sraeg2013Jul 5, 20171 votes

Is it really THAT hard to understand English? Or am I doing something wrong here?

And you said that Nasus having his passive makes sense.. and somehow it doesn't on kayn because its all "frontloaded?" into his Q and he has one slow. Which means he may never use his passive at all..... are you serious? (has anyone ever heard of Nasus not using his passive? lol) I mean XD

Thats your argument.

No, for Pete's sake, that is NOT my argument.

The whole point of me responding to you in this comment chain was because you are for some reason surprised OP didn't say a word about Nasus who in your eyes is somehow a bigger offender than... Kayn was it?

TheDeviceJul 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Is it really THAT hard to understand English? Or am I doing something wrong here?

No, for Pete's sake, that is NOT my argument.

The whole point of me responding to you in this comment chain was because you are for some reason surprised OP didn't say a word about Nasus who in your eyes is somehow a bigger offender than... Kayn was it?

I never said he was a bigger offender than kayn. I said he's "just as" easy to use in his argument. Why's that so hard to understand?

You make this claim as if it makes more sense on Nasus. I dont think it makes any less or more sense on Nasus than it does on Kayn. You bring up these examples in his kit as if that helps your argument. It doesn't. all you're really proving is that Nasus has a completely different kit than Mordes. Also a completely different kit from Kayns kit. They are all completely different.

MM just happened to single out Kayn for this argument when Nasus has been here the entire time. I think that's messed up.

TheDeviceJul 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It seems to elude you, but while Mordekaiser and Nasus' kits are different, it doesn't mean they play fundamentally differently.

They are slow and must walk up to an enemy to deal damage. Nasus in particular has 10-20% lifesteal which (surprisingly) only applies to basic attacks and 1. he is forced to go tanky if not full tank to get in range to use it, and not blow up, and 2. only one part of his kit benefits from this lifesteal.

Meanwhile Kayn is an assassin with dashes, slows, knockups and untargetability getting spellvamp on each and single one of his spells that does not have an AoE penalty.

Plus you bring "sense" into the discussion as if it would add anything substantial. Hint: it does not and you actually fail.

His basic attacks benefit from his lifesteal and his Q....... which is his entire kit. Its the strongest ability on his kit and his bread and butter. This is why you sound just as biased as MM. You try to pretend Nasus is built the same way as morde. He's not. He's his own fucking champion with his own fucking kit. You seem to not understand that. You also seem to be under the impression that I don't think Nasus should have that passive. I fully agree the should have it and that it works on his kit. IDK why you are even trying to prove to me that it works on his kit. What I'm sayin is you could make just as much of a bs argument for nasus as you could kayn.

Kayn doesn't have as much base health or defensive stats as nasus does. He's far more squishy than he is. This is why he has assassin like abilities.. because he's an assassin. Is morde an assassin? WTF are we even talking about anymore? They are all different kits.

Your saying morde and Nasus play the same... nope. Just because two champs have low mobility doesn't mean they play the same. They play totally different. Nasus is a top lane farm bot with an infinite scaling Q to 1-shot squishies he can get close to.

Morde is a team fighting splash damager who used to be able to sustain in fights and turn all his damage into a shield. Guess what old morde never did; Build full tank. He needed that magic damage to be relevant in the game and in teamfights. He also used to go 1v5 and demolish people.

Think man. Think about what you're even talking about before you say shit.

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