Don't confused Juggernauts for Tanks

Mira Arya Enthe··50 votes·2,489 views

Juggernauts are tanky. So people often confuse them for tanks. But watching a lot of LCS and reading patch notes. It should become clear what the differences are between a Juggernaut and tank, as defined by Riot and high level players.

Juggernauts: They have a tanking steroid, they deal consistent single target or AoE damage, have mild CC, and remain a consistent raid boss style threat through an entire team fight or other engagement.

Tank: They also have a tanking steroid, however they typically deal much less damage(unless overtuned), have hard initiations tools, crowd control for lockdown and peel, and once they initiate they leave it up to their carries to do the damage.

Tanks can deal some damage, but not as much as a well built juggernaut. They also tend to lack the moments of burst that people like Trundle, Darius, Garen, Nasus have.

Juggernauts are tanky, but usually not as tanking.

Role wise the biggest separation is what they do BECAUSE of the differences in their abilities. If you take all the primarily listed Tanks in the game, you will notice almost every single one of them has one ability that lets them dive into the enemy team, and a strong crowd control or three. Meaning their job is to dive into a fight, crowd control as many enemies as possible, and peel damage dealers off of your carries.

Whereas most Juggernauts, have a slow and AS reduction, or a slow and pull, or a slow and pillar. And that is it. They also tend to lack tools that let them hard dive initiate. But they have great sustain, are also tanky, and have good damage usually on shorter cooldowns than a tank does. This lets the Juggernaut do his job as an off-tank damage dealer. He acts as a front line threat who who gets in there and deals enough damage to make themselves a relevant target, while being tanky so they don't immediately die. Their job is to lower HP bars and take damage.

The reason this distinction is important, is because when somebody posts that "Tanks do too much damage with 1 damage item." Then their examples are Garen, Darius or Shyvana. They are saying blaming tanks for a Juggernaut problem. If they say "Tanks die too fast despite building pure tank." Then name Darius, Garen, Shyvana or Nasus, they are saying tanks need a buff because of a Juggernaut problem.

It is also important because if your team has no CC and says "We need a tank." And you pick Garen, it's nice that you picked somebody tanky, but you still don't have proper CC. Some Juggernauts are almost tanks, like Trundle, Mundo or Volibear, and in some comps can fill the role of the tank if the team has enough initiation and CC already. But they are NOT tanks. And some tanks are almost Juggernauts, like J4 or Singed because they deal a lot of damage, but they are still NOT Juggernauts. They have different tools, and different jobs.

Before posting about Tanks or Juggernauts. Please make sure you are addressing the right one.

Sincerely, Bronzelord who plays Shyvana, Leona, Sejuani, Braum and Garen.

Sources: Riot, LCS, the Wiki, Champion GG, in game class tags, logic, friends who are much better than me.

83 Comments

Hrd2H1t32 votes

Example of a pure tank: Sion Example of a pure juggernaut: Darius

Mira Arya Enthe11 votes

{quoted}

Example of a pure tank: Sion Example of a pure juggernaut: Darius

Pure tanks Amumu Alistar Nautilus

Pure Juggernauts Garen Darius Skarner

Only Play Darius29 votes

Skarner isn't really a juggernaut, and for his next rework they will be actually be making him into a Vanguard tank. They still want him to be doing more damage than the typical tank, but they have said forcing him into the juggernaut category was a mistake and made the rework a failure.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6Qmseftf,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-27T18:42:28.105+0000)

Skarner isn't really a juggernaut, and for his next rework they will be actually be making him into a Vanguard tank. They still want him to be doing more damage than the typical tank, but they have said forcing him into the juggernaut category was a mistake and made the rework a failure.

Yes. But he currently still is a Juggernaut at the momenr.

exiledFromBadmen4 votes

He isn't according to Riot's new champion classification.

Frius10 votes

34th rework ?like ryzes

Only Play Darius9 votes

Yea sadly Skarner needs a focused rework but keeps getting numerous small-scale reworks that fix nothing.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Amumu doesn't really feel like a true tank though. Heck, he does more dmg than Garen or Skarner and can tank just as well.

Malicious Metal9 votes

Mordekaiser ?!?!?!?

Tychusfindlay9196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6Qmseftf,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2016-08-27T21:19:18.619+0000)

Mordekaiser ?!?!?!?

A juggernaut, although his base hp is laughable. Typically not viable in comparison to other juggernauts like darius or illaoi.

Malicious Metal6 votes

Not viable? triggered even further

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6Qmseftf,comment-id=00000000000200000000,timestamp=2016-08-28T00:36:06.428+0000)

Not viable? triggered even further

"In comparison to other..."

How many times have you seen trundle in the LCS? How many times have you seen mordekaiser outside of one troll pick at the end of the summer split?

How many times have you seen illaoi compared to mordekaiser? Do not delude yourself.

Darius may not have LCS presence but he has a crapton more outside-of-the-lcs presence than mordekaiser.

Can't even say mordekaiser fills a niche, against competent team comps he's just bad. His base stats gate him so hard.

crippler382 votes

{quoted}

"In comparison to other..."

How many times have you seen trundle in the LCS? How many times have you seen mordekaiser outside of one troll pick at the end of the summer split?

How many times have you seen illaoi compared to mordekaiser? Do not delude yourself.

Darius may not have LCS presence but he has a crapton more outside-of-the-lcs presence than mordekaiser.

Can't even say mordekaiser fills a niche, against competent team comps he's just bad. His base stats gate him so hard.

you do realize you're telling that to the metal master himself right? I'm pretty sure people in diamond are at LEAST capable of cc chaining a high damage no mobility character like morde if they can deal with yi. That stuff should happen anywhere past silver so I mean obviously SOMETHING has to be working here.

Nik Nikerson5 votes

And yet whenever I get an Amumu on my team they seem to think he's an AP assassin, not a tank....

exiledFromBadmen22 votes
                                                                                                               **FYI **

Riot's full list of Juggernauts: Darius Garen Shyvana DrMundo Illaoi Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Udyr Trundle Volibear Yorick (soon)

Riot's full list of Vanguards (Inıtıators/offensive tanks) Leona Malphite Gragas Amumu Gnar Skarner (soon) Sion RekSai (sad but true) Sejuani Nautilus Rammus Zac

Riot's full list of Wardens (Defensive tanks) Maokai Braum Alistar Galio Shen Nunu Poppy TahmKench Thresh

Bonus: Taric is an Enchanter/Warden hybrid

Sincerely, Bronzelady who plays Leona, Sejuani, Nautilus, Shyvana, and Taric

Sincerely, Bronzelord who plays Shyvana, Leona, Sejuani, Braum, and Garen

Oh my God I just found someone who can understand my pain.

Ralanr5 votes

{quoted}

**FYI **

Riot's full list of Juggernauts: Darius Garen Shyvana DrMundo Illaoi Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Udyr Trundle Volibear Yorick (soon)

Riot's full list of Vanguards (Inıtıators/offensive tanks) Leona Malphite Gragas Amumu Gnar Skarner (soon) Sion RekSai (sad but true) Sejuani Nautilus Rammus Zac

Riot's full list of Wardens (Defensive tanks) Maokai Braum Alistar Galio Shen Nunu Poppy TahmKench Thresh

Bonus: Taric is an Enchanter/Warden hybrid

Sincerely, Bronzelady who plays Leona, Sejuani, Nautilus, Shyvana, and Taric

Oh my God I just found someone who can understand my pain.

There's more of us than you think. Maybe we should make a support group.

Critmaster Garen9 votes

someone make this thread sticky pls.

because this comes up like dozens of times per week.

LuunaLily8 votes

I think I would sort it out more like this.

True tanks, initiators/zoners and juggernauts.

True tanks (which can be divided into Wardens; who are defensive and Vanguards; who are offensive) = Amumu Poppy Nautilus Alistar (Lockdown enemies with cc and soak damage with their sheer amount of health and/or resistances. More about peeling for carries more than anything.)

Juggernauts = Garen Darius Nasus Illaoi (Jump into the enemy team as a damage threat and deal a mix of aoe and single target damage. Stack health w/ some resistances for survivability.)

Initiators/Zoners? = Trundle Volibear Shyvana (Maybe mislabeled slightly. But they have moderately similar builds and roles. They zone enemy carries as a single target sustained damage threat with additional zoning tools. Usually have some kind of regen for sustaining in the backline. Autoattack reliance for damage.)

Then again I'm just a silver scrub so I know nothing. [slayer-jinx-wink]

Only Play Darius6 votes

I still love Juggernauts though, Tanks are nice but I prefer to deal facecrushing amounts of damage.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6Qmseftf,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-08-27T18:40:33.731+0000)

I still love Juggernauts though, Tanks are nice but I prefer to deal facecrushing amounts of damage.

Indeed they are fun :D

Photos of Ghosts5 votes

Just a thing: J4 is still considered a fighter, just a mobile one. A Diver, that's called. The difference between that and a tank is that a Diver's engage tends to be more single target (not the case of J4 but that's his individuality) and has little to no tankscaling (J4 has a shield but it's flat, it only scales with the number of enemies).

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6Qmseftf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-08-27T20:20:29.477+0000)

Just a thing: J4 is still considered a fighter, just a mobile one. A Diver, that's called. The difference between that and a tank is that a Diver's engage tends to be more single target (not the case of J4 but that's his individuality) and has little to no tankscaling (J4 has a shield but it's flat, it only scales with the number of enemies).

J4 is unique, but is fully listed as a tank. And is used in the role of a tank. Because engage and CC is more important than the tanking steroid itself in high lvls of play. You can always build tanking items, you cannot build items to give you proper engagement tools.

Photos of Ghosts2 votes

Ehum, the client classification is strongly outdated. You should look at the Dev Corner list, gonna find that in a minute.

NazZomLord4 votes

Sion Best of CC tank initiator and high damage juggernaut Sion

Veltox4 votes

At the same time all his kit is damn fair to dodge.

Ralanr1 votes

Which is why is damage is high for a tank.

hgrva3 votes

what Vladimir is classified as?

Ralanr15 votes

Battlemage.

SlntReaper3 votes

Where does tank Ekko fit in?

Ralanr17 votes

The garbage can for being an abomination.

doombotMECHA3 votes

actually tho. a lot of "tank" assassins end up close to juggernauts b/c the try to get in your face and disrupt, but ekko just has tons of cc, tons of damage, and all kinds of bull. all kinds

Meep Man2 votes

Tank Assassins are basically Assassins thst turned into Skirmishers/Divers. Usually happens when they have a direct defensive mechanic and mobility with some CC.

Matezoide3 votes

People have been getting bruisers mixed with tanks for years.

Hell, there are people that still think Mundo is a tank.

RogueWill2 votes

I'm not sure singed is a tank.... his real tools are the troll-flip and a mild slow to catch up, he is more like volibear, just run as fast as you can to catch someone.

VoidStaresBack3 votes

The OP, while correct on most points, hasn't taken a look at the most recent updated list of champion classes and is using the horrendously outdated list in the client, it seems. Singed is a unique champion outside of the classes, along with Cho'Gath, Blitzcrank, Kennen, Urgot, and Fiddlesticks.

RogueWill2 votes

{quoted}

The OP, while correct on most points, hasn't taken a look at the most recent updated list of champion classes and is using the horrendously outdated list in the client, it seems. Singed is a unique champion outside of the classes, along with Cho'Gath, Blitzcrank, Kennen, Urgot, and Fiddlesticks.

He is a basically a mage juggernaut (if there is such thing as that) and possible Cho, Vlad, Ryze and Swain would fall on the same category as him

CeexSett1 votes

Vlad and Swain are defined as Battle Mages.

Cho is something of a Disruptor/Battle Mage with some parts of Burst Mage. His kit is just super old.

Ryze is a Burst Mage and somewhat of a disruptor.

Responding to 4maskwolf, those are the real incognites.

RogueWill1 votes

{quoted}

Vlad and Swain are defined as Battle Mages.

Cho is something of a Disruptor/Battle Mage with some parts of Burst Mage. His kit is just super old.

Ryze is a Burst Mage and somewhat of a disruptor.

Responding to 4maskwolf, those are the real incognites.

Juggernauts are champions with high survival and high damage but with limited movement and limited CC(Utility) to compensate. All of them lack high ranges of effect and are meleee to mid range at most. Ryze, Vlad, Singed and Swain fullfill that role to the word. Ryze has no movement outside his ult and only has a single target root, Vlad similarly has no mobility and not a single utility for his team, Swain has his AoE root and Slow but no way to move into the fray beside catching someone, Cho is simarly with his Silence and knock up. Most of this champions have ranges similar lo Mordekaiser (who is a juggernaut) the only one woudl be Cho whos Q has higher range. Why is Mordekaiser a juggernaut and not a Battle Mage then?

CeexSett1 votes

I'm not making this up, Riot themselves classified Swain and Vlad as Battle Mages.

I think Juggernauts are supposed to be AD, except for Mordekaiser, who was a fiasco. But when he was played in bot lane he still bought item 3078 item 3053 item 3146 , who are mostly ad items.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

Juggernaut is just a bullshit term created by Riot to justify making certain tanky champs blatantly overpowered for literally 0 reason. Darius in his current stat is broken in every way. He's supposed to be a warrior/executioner, yet he randomly heals by hitting people with his axe. This make 0 sense thematically, and makes his already very high damage kit even harder to contend with.

Tychusfindlay9195 votes

{quoted}

Juggernaut is just a bullshit term created by Riot to justify making certain tanky champs blatantly overpowered for literally 0 reason. Darius in his current stat is broken in every way. He's supposed to be a warrior/executioner, yet he randomly heals by hitting people with his axe. This make 0 sense thematically, and makes his already very high damage kit even harder to contend with.

You mean that painfully telegraphed and delayed decimate ability?

Theres nothing wrong with juggernauts and the term itself, youre just salty because you probably got dunked on for not respecting darius's personal space.

SlashStriker1 votes

Nasus with 20 billion stacks definitely not a tank item 3065 item 3110 item 3025 item 3083 item 3143 item 3111 its tank assassin :3 perma Wither not a problem

Ralanr14 votes

Juggernaut.

SlashStriker2 votes

{quoted}

Juggernaut.

this is what full tank builds item 3065 item 3110 item 3025 item 3083 item 3143 item 3111

That ain't juggernaut at all

Ralanr5 votes

No, you're not getting it. A tank is more than just their build, it's about what utility they provide to the team and how their kits enforce their ability to tank. It is more than just being hard to kill, it involves actually being able to force fights or force away fights.

Nasus can't force a fight. Sure he has a ridiculously good slow, but it doesn't stop the target from flashing away. That slow is the only utility he actually brings, with the rest being something that beefs himself up or increases his damage.

Nasus is the only juggernaut in the game who can get buy without building a single offensive item. This is because of the infinite scaling on his Q. So it doesn't matter how much tank he is building, as long as he farms enough he will explode anyone that gets close to him. That's a juggernaut in a nutshell. They have no ways to get you to them, very little in ways to keep you close, but is tanky enough to shrug off the first few attacks as it lumbers towards you to decimate you.

They don't stop until either they or you are dead, and it takes a lot to kill them. But they aren't the best for peeling nor can they engage fights beyond walking. Sure you could say walking is engaging a fight since your opponent can just throw their CC on you, but you can't stop them from running to a more advantageous location, you can only follow.

Tanks like Malphite Sion and Nautilus all have abilities to force fights.

doombotMECHA7 votes

doesn't matter. he still isn't a tank. if annie built that she'd still be a mage. nasus doesn't have the initiation mobility to be a true tank.

DorkunedAuras3 votes

item 3075

AN ENEMY HAS BEEN SLAIN AN ALLY HAS BEEN SLAIN

LoL Ergo Urgot1 votes

Was very helpful, thank you.

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